How would you do it?
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 13:51
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quote:Well gee, I'd hope so considering I was obviously being overly general and facetious here. What I said was plainly a tirade against the overuse of vengance as a motivator. [ Tuesday, September 12, 2006 13:52: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 15:03
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To answer your original question Tullegolar, this is how I would do it: First, R-I, yeah she had to come back, but I wouldn't have made it as big. Her hiding in Motrax's cave with the sea monster plague and some smaller plague of Aranea or something. Second, the two sons. Have all the cities alligned one way or the other, say Starrus gets the west and Houghton gets the east? A tension building and armies forming, yet no official split yet. Also small conflicts on the border. Third, the Darkside Loyalists. Of course they would be secretly fueling this division. They would set up these small border conflicts, and themselves setting up attacks on farmlands framing the side that the farmers oppose. Also dare I say it, the Darkside Loyalists to an extent controlling R-I? Oh and lastly the Darkside Loyalists should push on even older rifts, the necromancers and demonologists against the major mage populace, a Sss-Thsss type revolution, a new nephil queen to unite all clans, giants invading Avernum, etc. This is the full potential of the Darkside Loyalists. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 15:25
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I can't believe that so many of you would have Rentar as a minor villain! She is a major character in the Avernum series! She helped you to win the Empire War, and she was the most powerful living being after Erika's death. She has basically single-handedly driven the plot for 3/4ths of the series! How could the Darkside Loyalists ever control her? They stand for everything she hates, and I'll bet she would crush Dorikas's puny mortal form without even thinking about it. I personally don't like Dorikas, and I am surprised you all do. He seems to be everything you don’t like in your villains: you never really get to know him, and then when you finally fight him, he runs away. Undoubtedly, you will fight and kill him in the next Avernum. He is so much better than Rentar how? I hope, for your sake, that there is a much better villain behind Dorikas. I think I mentioned this earlier: I hope Prazac goes back on her word and tries to rebuild the Empire of her ancestors! Otherwise it will just be some as of yet unnamed bad guy. I hate it when that happens. Emperorking, some nice ideas, finally! An Avernum civil war; I'd like to see that! This probably doesn't mean much to you, but the civil war idea gets my Emperor's Seal of Approval™. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 15:40
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I don't like Dorikas, I like the Darkside Loyalists. Rentar doesn't need to be a main villain because *we already beat her*. Now she's just a deranged psycho with no real support, and her role in the story should reflect that. If she even appears at all. As for an Avernum civil war, I don't think it should be between Houghton and Starrus supporters - nobody really supports Houghton (who is not related to Starrus or Micah at all). It would be between supporters of the Council of Avernum (which Houghton made Starrus disband) and supporters of Starrus. Basically democracy vs. monarchy. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 15:58
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Right, right, Houghton is not the one. What ever happened to that other prince... Chevyn? He seemed like the kind of ruler that would fall easy prey to some kind of evil puppeteer. Linda perhaps? She is still alive somewhere out there, isn't she? Democracy vs. monarchy? I am not so sure the town mayors true elected officials. They are supposedly elected, but I am not so sure if it to such a great extent. I get the impression that Avernum cities are not so big as Empire cities, so the common citizen might have more say, but still very little. It is probably more of an oligarchy. I don't think the world of Avernum is ready for democracy. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 16:47
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quote:Chevyn was conveniently deleted from the Avernum universe by Jeff. Linda died in the Tower of Magi disaster that she caused. As for Dorikas, I'm with Drakey. I can't speak for everyone else, but Dorikas as a main villain was pretty weak. Partly because we know little about him, hopefully he will be more developed as time goes on. The concept of the Darkside Loyalists is a much more interesting one. [ Tuesday, September 12, 2006 16:51: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 17:16
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The way we've reconciled Chevyn with A4 is by saying that Micah served until 836, when Chevyn was supposed to be king but instead the Council of Avernum stepped in and ran things. When Starrus, Micah's next son, reached 13, he was appointed King by Houghton and Crown supporters, with Houghton acting like regent (like Garzahd for Prazac, but not evil) and disbanding the Council. And that's where we stand at the start of A4. And I'm not really sure how democractic it would be, but it's the point of group rule vs. a single monarch. Despite the fact that Micah was an extremely good king and Avernum would certainly be worse off if he hadn't been king. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 17:19
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There's no need for a villain at all, really. A faction makes a much better opponent, and while most factions will have leaders on top and underlings on the bottom, focusing on a group often gives clearer reasons for what their doing and more chances to collectively understand your enemies. —Alorael, who thinks this is more because designers tend to think of groups very differently and in more detail than their lone villain counterparts. People need reasons to work together for a common cause. They need reasons to follow a villain, too, but those get hand-waved frequently. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 18:26
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Dorikas was just the leader of the last Darkside Loyalist base that was discovered in A4. It's implied that he was not the head of a much larger group mostly working in the Empire. After all that is the largest area and population. To them Avernum is something to keep weak and disorganized until it will be eventually crushed for killing the Great Hawthorne. Still the Darkside Loyalists had much greated potential as villians because they were a new unknown force. You didn't know until meeting Dorikas who they were and what was their goal except overthrowing Avernum. All you knew was that they were infiltrating Avernum and gaining allies. R-I was the same powerful revenge filled mage from Avernum 2 using her power to get back at whomever had taken the Soul Crystals. She didn't even care if she got the right people the first time, as long as she eventually got them. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 18:50
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quote:That sounds like grounds for civil war to me! Rule #1 when it comes to appointing a successor to a monarch: pick the oldest son! Anything else tends to result in disaster. I just realized that, while I know it happens, I never actually saw the Tower of Magi destroyed. I guess I just never had a game last that long, probably because I cheated. No matter. So, Linda is dead. I can't believe this is the first time I am hearing about this. I feel like a fool. I'll miss her. Alorael: You don't think a good villain is necessary? Please tell me you wrote that by accident. What good game doesn’t have a lead antagonist? While I can think of twenty great villains right off the top of my head, I have trouble think of a single 'faction' that is worth remembering. Barzites? No, wait... -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 18:57
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Nobody wants Chevyn to rule. Even Micah admits that he's unfit. Having him be King would be absolutely disastrous for Avernum, which is why the Council took over while Houghton was grooming Starrus. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 19:16
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Ah, but as I said before, Chevyn would be the ideal puppet ruler. He may be an idiot, but that is exactly what nobles want in a monarch. Plus, he has a legitimate claim to the throne, being the eldest son. All it would take for him to gain real power is the proper puppeteer! The mysterious leader of the Darkside Loyalists, perhaps? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 19:51
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Avernum is basically a nation of people who didn't work well with authority. They're still a fairly independent lot. Their monarchy was only one generation old at the time of Micah's death. I think they'd be more inclined to oust or ignore any incompetent ruler. A puppeteer behind Chevyn's throne would be fine as long as they were competent and not too malicious, but anything else and a bunch of armed, hardened Exiles would march on the Castle. —Alorael, who thinks Nethergate works just fine without any real lead antagonist. Is A2's portal ending less important because you're fighting the Empire in general rather than a specific general, pun intended? Isn't the Party of 1984 terrifying as a whole, not because of the fictitious Big Brother character or O'Brien? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 20:12
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While I would like to believe Avernum would rise up against an incompetent ruler, I am fairly certain this doesn't happen in feudal systems, ever. The people are generally kept ignorant of their monarch, and they do what their local lords, in this case the mayors, tell them to do. Throughout human history, the only time that feudal monarchs are ever overthrown is when they anger the nobles. And nobles, my friend, can be bought! It don't think it would be difficult at all to put a puppet king on the throne of Avernum. It would take the proper propaganda for the troops, however. "Hail Chevyn, the rightful king!" Hey, that warcry almost rhymes! Destroying the portal was a victory not against the Empire, but against Garzahd. Garzahd was the Empire in Avernum 2. The same can be said for 1984. Even though Big Brother wasn't even real, without him, what would The Party have been? Nothing. As for Nethergate, that actually is a fair example. I concede on that. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 21:10
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quote:I already did, one from an extremely serious genre (Satan from Paradise Lost) and one very much not (Cartman from South Park). I can't give an example from computer games because I don't really play computer games much other than these. The only reason that R-I needs to be multi-dimensional in A4 is that she is the whole plot in A4. A1 had several major quests. A2 did, too. A3 had quite a few. All three had significant artifact quests, too. A4 has none of that: it has just one major quest and that's it. It puts a lot of focus on R-I and beating her. There is the subplot with the Darkside Loyalists, but that turns out not to have real consequences in A4 — A6, maybe? -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 21:31
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Paradise Lost and South Park would make terrible games! Who would play those? Well, I might, but it would be out of sheer curiosity, and I am certain they would be really bad. A South Park game, while fun, is not a very good example of how to improve Avernum 4's plot. As for Paradise Lost, I am not sure how that would be made into a game at all, but you are welcome to try. Now I understand why you are so critical of Avernum 4: you haven't played a lot of other games. I can assure you, the games out there... it gets far worse than Rentar-Ihrno. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 21:55
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Actually, it doesn't get all that much worse than Rentar. It does get much, much, much, much, much better, though. For examples of great villains in games, I always like to point to System Shock 2. SHODAN, The Many, and Xerxes are all top-notch. I also invite you to play my BoE scenario Revenge... I think I have a couple of above-average villains there. [ Tuesday, September 12, 2006 21:57: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 00:22
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quote:Fallout 2. The only named characters in the Enclave aren't introduced until the very end of the game, and when they are they get about five minutes of screen time before you kill them. Sure, Frank Horrigan makes for a good boss fight, but the Enclave would be just as credible a threat without him. And as for the President, well, I don't even remember that guy's name. [ Wednesday, September 13, 2006 00:30: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 04:32
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I must disagree on the point of Fallout 2. You first meet Horrigan in the wasteland, where you watch helplessly as he guns down an innocent family. Later on, if you’ve joined the Brotherhood of Steel, you return to the hideout's at some point to discover that the soul caretaker has been murdered, once again by Horrigan. Eventually, if you have Goris traveling with you, she has you return to Vault 13 because she is worried about her people. You go with her, and are crushed to discover the whole clan, even the children and eggs, have been 'cleansed' by Horrigan. Maybe you missed out on some of these events, but I believe Horrigan is meant to be the main antagonist never-the-less. He doesn’t, however, hold a candle to The Master, who is probably the greatest video game villain of all time. As for the games Ash Lael mentioned, I've not played a single one, interestingly enough, are they available for mac? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5459
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 04:39
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Goris is a female? -------------------- These are my scenarios. I may have too much free time but I really don't care. Backwater Calls, Magus of Cattalon, Rats Aplenty Get them here Visit The Lyceum for all your rating needs. Posts: 211 | Registered: Sunday, January 30 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 04:46
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quote:I am 96% certain of this. It really was sad to see her devastated by the sight of her slaughtered people. Made you really hate Horrigan, if the other events hadn't already. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 04:50
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quote:Avernum is not a feudal system. There are no nobles. There are no serfs. Mayors are not nobles - the people choose their mayors. And the mayors of the six largest cities sit on the Council of Avernum. I'd like to think that almost all of the people in Exile are limited-government supporters. As long as the government keeps people safe and doesn't bother them, they don't really care who's in charge. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 05:54
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quote:I feel as though you're deliberately misinterpreting me, here. I'm not saying that we should turn these into games. You asked a question about multi-faceted antagonists. If you really want something from a computer game, how about the Myst villains? Most of them don't fit the terms I've described above, but they work well because they're individual. Achenar is bone-chillingly cruel, and we spend a fair bit of time learning about his cruelty on a few of the Ages. Saavedro is vaguely Rentar-like — he's doing a lot of this for revenge or something — but we actually learn a bit about what his world was and why he's so angry that it was devastated. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 08:16
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I think it's worth pointing out that the world of Avernum doesn't have society like medieval Europe despite similarities. The Empire has very little nobility that we've seen, and there has definitely been evidence of promotion to high authority for merit. The system is more like imperial China's, but even more so. Avernum is really only on its first generation of born Avernites. The number of powerful people banished is limited, and most of them seem to be magically and not politically skilled. The Empire's citizens may not be prone to rebellion, but that's because the rebels were all tossed into Avernum. I actually think Avernum's portrayal drastically downplays the powderkeg potential of a collection of people who didn't get along with society. —Alorael, who disagrees entirely about the point of A2. If Garzahd were the Empire, only his ending would be needed. He is the most powerful single force behind the Empire, but he is not the sole cause of the invasion, its sole supporter, or its entire backbone. Big Brother is an even worse example, because "he" is a fabrication. He's necessary as a tactic, not as an individual. As long as the Party exists so does Big Brother, not vice versa. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 11:13
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I suppose ‘nobles’ was the wrong word, but surely you see that the mayors of Avernum do form some kind of aristocracy. I completely agree with the point of Avernum being much like Imperial China. Imperial China relied largely on local governors and huge bureaucratic system. But like I said, the people in China never successfully overthrew an emperor, and they had some very incompetent emperors. No, whenever a dynasty fell, it was because local lords rebelled against a weak central government. Avernum is the same, I don't think the king has very much power at all. The king seems to be more of a symbol, really, like the Queen of the United Kingdom. Since it is the power of the symbol that gives strength, rather than competence, I think that Chevyn would be supported by just as many, if not more people in Avernum solely due to the fact that he is the first born son of the great King Micah. All Chevyn would need to do to take over would be to buy off the local town mayors (though not necessarily with money) and then hire a good propaganda expert to spread the word that “the true Prince has come home.” Kelandon: When I ask a question like the one you answered I am expecting an answer that is relevant to the topic of Avernum games. Take your myst villains, for example. Yes, those were all very intriguing characters, great villains, to be sure. But could you fight against them with swords and spells? I would like to keep it within the Avernum genre. I’ll rephrase the question: what is the ideal violent fantasy role playing game villain? Alorael: I don't think you could ever make a decent argument for Garzahd not being the sole driving force of the Empire in Avernum 2. In fact, I am pretty sure Micah asked you to kill him for just that reason. If the portal were destroyed but Garzahd left alive, I think you would have a very Rentaresque situation on your hands. He would return to trouble you again, probably with a bigger army than the first time around. Edit: Almost forgot Big Brother. If he is not totally necessary for the party maintaining absolute control, then why did they create him? Any faction requires a powerful leader. Look at political parties in the United States: total failures without a leader. You think the Nazi party would have gotten anywhere without Hitler? No, without a powerful leader, the stongest factions will crumble into dust. A made up leader worked out especially well for the 1984 party, since he can never embarrass himself or be killed, he is the perfect leader, and absolutly nessesary as well. I am an Emperor, I know these things. [ Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:20: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |