How would you do it?
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 21:14
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If there is one thing about the Council of Avernum, it's that most of the mayors hated their jobs. Blosk is a great example where the mayor would rather run her inn. Almaria as the largest city is the only one where the mayor seems to like power. Silvar's mayor is overcome by paper pushing. Cotra is mostly paralyzed. Formello relies upon the First Expedition necklace to control the people and none of the mayors there stay in power for long. Dharmon is mostly run by the military. Mertis was more concerned with business and the reoccuring undead problem. King Micah was needed to keep a central government running with a bunch of people that questioned authority. Otherwise Avernum would dissolve into a group of city states that would barely help each other against the Sliths and Nephils. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 00:33
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quote:Don't patronise me. If F2 does just fine without a well-characterised primary antagonist, it'd do equally well with no primary antagonist at all, now wouldn't it? quote:Says who? Even Avernum 1 doesn't end that way, since the only action (apart from dying) you can take that actually ends the game is escaping to the surface. quote:There's a rather successful series of RPGs called Final Fantasy. You may perhaps have heard of it. Whether you personally like that style of game or not, it's hard to argue with sales figures. [ Thursday, September 14, 2006 00:54: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 08:07
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quote:There's a heck of a lot more involved in why Paradise Lost would make a bad computer game than that Satan would be a bad villain. Surely you know that already. But I'll ask again: why does coming up with an example matter? Do you really not know what I'm talking about and need an example to understand the concept of a "detailed villain"? [ Thursday, September 14, 2006 08:12: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 11:48
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quote:I said *computer* game :P -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 12:03
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I'm pretty sure at least a few Final Fantasies were ported to PC, where they were probably still reasonably successful. —Alorael, who would like to know what kind of villain is best for a board game. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 12:12
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By Alorael quote:I've got a pretty good evil laugh in Settlers... -------------------- This post brought to you by the joys of Unix. Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 13:14
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quote:I would assume that he's trying to understand your concept of a detailed villain in particular. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 14:07
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Second Slith War: Oh... I remember now. How do you know that Micah was already dead at that point? Or is that part of you guys' fan fiction time line? Randomizer: I agree fully with all your points. I think that such city states would easily fall prey to a warlord trying to take over Avernum. Avernum cities are notorious for... falling. The people are easily discouraged. For Chevyn! Fallout: Like I said before, the ending is always more satisfying when you can put a face to what your fighting against. It would not have been the same without Horrigan. Violent Confrontation: Avernum 1, though you could take any path you wanted, was designed so that Hawthorne should have been the final confrontation. Even if you really are going to be anal and say the game doesn't end unless you escape to the surface: the final gauntlet seemed pretty violent to me. Kelandon: As far as I am concerned, Rentar is a detailed villain. I have given you the reasons why I think this is so. You disagreed with me without explaining what you think a detailed villain is. Board Game Villain: The Spy in Stratego. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 15:21
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quote:It's set at a time where Houghton was regent for Starrus - only a few years before Avernum 4. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6193
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 15:49
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Lord Licorice easily wins best board game villain. I've often wondered why Rentar doesn't try the "distribution of icky candy" path to world domination. -------------------- Guaranteed to blow your mind. Frostbite: Get It While It's...... Hot? Posts: 900 | Registered: Monday, August 8 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 19:07
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quote:Could you answer the question I asked? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 19:16
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Solely from context, my guess is that Houghton says it himself. —Alorael, who thinks this discussion has taken a decided turn for the snippier. Maybe that should be reigned in a bit. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 21:18
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If I remember A1 correctly, one of the rewards that King Micah offers the adventurers is to name them as heir in place of Chevyn. This shows that Micah is already looking for an alternative to his current presumptive heir. No one wanted that idiot in charge except Chevyn who was too stupid to notice how people felt about him. Even Chevyn's lizard is avoiding him, although the way the lizard's been dressed makes this understandable. By A2 when you find Chevyn's lost ring he is lacking in gratitude. He still feels that he deserves to be heir by birth. The Castle is being used as a posting for people that need to be kept out of the way from interferring in the Empire War. There is no mention of Chevyn by A3 so maybe a solution has been found. Some convient "accident" to end the question of his inheritance permanently. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 21:58
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quote: quote:As I have said before, a detailed villain is one who has a sizable number of lines, either spoken by the character or spoken by others about the character, and in those lines, such a villain must convey a convincing, complex background or psychology. Ideally, such a background or psychology must be surprising or sympathetic in some way. Rentar doesn't even have a sizable number of lines, and much less does she demonstrate a complex background or psychology. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 22:15
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quote:Drakefyre is not a fan of giving actual evidence for his canon assertions, much to my frustration since the very first thread in which I posted. If his statement is true, it of course proves that Micah was already dead. Houghton was regent only after Micah's death. However, no reference to Houghton, Starrus, or Micah occurs in ZKR, as far as I know, and I'm fairly sure that Houghton and Starrus make no mention of the war themselves. This suggests that Drakey just made this up. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, September 14 2006 23:28
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quote:More satisfying for you. De gustibus non disputandum est. quote:Hmm. Maybe it was changed for Avernum, but Exile 1's final gauntlet was mainly puzzles, with a few fights here and there, mostly against golems (which barely counts as violence, since the things you're killing aren't really alive in the first place). -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Friday, September 15 2006 08:07
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*downloads BoA and Avernum 4* Houghton was regent for Starrus for the past 8-9 years. This comes from Avernum 4 - Starrus was 14 when he became king (Bagli in Fort Draco), and is in his "early twenties" now. Pea Eye says the Second Slith War was "not too many years ago". Captain Matos says he was born right after the Second Slith War. ZKR says the war started a little while after half of the Avernites moved to the surface. Assuming this took about 5 years, that places the beginning of the war around 838 IE. Za-Khazi Run is set in 845 IE. The war lasts longer than this (Pea Eye says he started doing the Run for a while after the adventurers cleared the route). Micah was 76 at the end of Avernum 3 in 833 IE (this is a conservative estimate - it assumes he was 20 when he became King). This is backed up by the history book in Patrick's Tower (for Av1 - 817 IE) saying Micah had been ruling for 40 years. If we assume Starrus was born just after Avernum 3 (since there was no mention of him in the previous 3 games), that puts Avernum 4 at around 855 IE (which is really the earliest it could possibly be). This is important, because there are a lot of really old commanders who we first saw in Exile I or II - Mairwen, Commander Johnson, Houghton, etc., not even counting the mages. The games frequently mention that life expectancies in the caves are shorter than those on the surface, due to the hazardous environment. If we say that Avernum 4 takes place in 860 IE, that could make Captain Matos 22 at the oldest if we assume that he meant he was born not too long after it *started*. It would also mean Starrus was crowned in 851 IE and he was born in 838 IE. When Micah was 81. Not to mention the fact that there's never any queen of Avernum or anything. And to say that Micah lived any longer than that is really stretching it. So I think it's fair to say that Micah was dead for the majority of the Second Slith War. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, September 15 2006 09:12
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One little nitpick: the life expectancy in Avernum is low, but a lot of that is people getting killed by sliths, nephilim, goblins, the undead, cave slimes, bandits, or their own giant lizards. Relatively few people seem to get fungus lung. Therefore, people either not exposed to violence or capable of handling violence probably don't live too much less than surface-dwellers. —Alorael, who also thinks that Jeff hasn't been paying too much attention to the years, especially given the uneven aging of some characters. It seems that Avernum is not just on a sliding timescale, it's got separate times passing for everyone. Maybe magic gives people extraordinarily high velocity now and then? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, September 15 2006 10:02
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Drakefyre, I am very impressed with your research! One question left, though. Is there ever a reference in the game to an interregnum? Does it actually say that the Council ruled Avernum for some amount of time between the death of Micah and the ascent of Starrus? Edit: Kelandon: You think Rentar doesn't have a sizable amount of lines? She has three games worth! What character in Avernum hs more screen time than her other than Erika? [ Friday, September 15, 2006 10:04: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7452
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written Friday, September 15 2006 10:45
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i'd like jeff to make avernum 5 the old avernum fashioned way Posts: 39 | Registered: Saturday, September 2 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, September 15 2006 10:59
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She gets more screen time, but that's still hardly any. Most of Avernum is spent killing everything, not talking. —Alorael, who really wishes Avernum gave more characters a chance to have some character. Two dimensional is okay, but most of Avernum is one dimensional. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, September 15 2006 11:04
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So you believe that all the Avernums are fundamentally flawed in this way? Really, they are supposed to be mostly killing things. I like killing things, and if I can get a great plot along the way, great. If you think they are so flawed in a element you deem so important, why do you play them? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Friday, September 15 2006 11:28
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After looking over Avernum 4 again (and some of my beta correspondence with Jeff), I agree that Rentar does do more than a lot of people give her credit for. When talking with Ghall-Ihrno (I think) and Rentar, you find out why she lost her support among the Vahnatai - she made herself a crystal soul after teh Olgai Council denied her "immortality". And Jeff says Avernum 4 is 20-30 years after Avernum 3. There is never any specific mention of a gap government between Micah and Houghton, but I assume that there was something, since the Council ruled alongside Micah but is not in existence in Avernum 4. Something happened that we don't know about, whether it was the Council stepping in after Micah, Houghton stepping in after Micah, Chevyn stepping in after Micah (although I doubt it), or something else. EDIT: Happy Kel? That post up there took me 2 hours, and the reason I never gave you evidence before was I never had any of the games installed (besides BoE/BoA) on my computer. But thanks to Slarty's text dumps, I can just search them quickly! [ Friday, September 15, 2006 15:19: Message edited by: Drakefyre ] -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, September 15 2006 17:00
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quote:We don't. Most of us just stick around for BoE/BoA and to wave our walking sticks at newbies in a cantankerous manner. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, September 16 2006 02:59
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quote:I'm quite sure that E/A 1 talks about death by disease and malnutrition in Exile. Hathwisa nearly dies from some cave disease, and there are various other sick folk, including a whole tribe of nephils in E2. What *does* make sense is that the ability of Avernite civilization to defend against disease et cetera improved over time just as their ability to defend against demons and lizards did. The standard of living in Exile seems to have risen promiscuously after E3 (which makes sense). quote:I agree with your conclusion, but doesn't Rone (or somebody) mention that Micah gave in to life-extending magic in order to continue to serve Avernum, while he had no heir? That makes his old age seem less improbable. Magic could also answer the concern about the lack of a queen. Avernum's answer to immaculate conception I guess! quote:Three games worth, yes, but lots of characters can claim that. The problem is that Rentar's personality was entirely one-dimensional. We never really see anything of Rentar besides anger, cold calculation, desire for vengeance, and maybe frustration. Glantris-Bok's small role in E2 alone was more interesting. But you were asking about lines and screen time, so here's my answer: If you just count dialogue, Solberg might have her beat, as he has four games of full (often rambling) dialogue. Khoth has three games plus a scenario, and Athron and Sulfras have fairly substantial dialogue as well. If you count all sorts of references and centrality to a game, then Micah definitely beats her. quote:No, no. Somebody in A4 *definitely* talks about the demise of the Council. I don't remember if it was Houghton or Starrus or or Rone or Kelner or someone in the castle or maybe even someone random like Angarahad, but somebody explains it. A good summary is in this Encyclopedia Ermariana article which, ironically enough, you (Drakey) wrote. :P -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |