How would you do it?
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 12:35
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The Chinese had millenia of dynasties that lasted generation after generation. Those who weren't part of the aristocracy and the bureaucracy were ignorant peasants, and ignorant is very much an operative word there. Avernum had one king, and he was made king because he was good at doing things that were good for Avernum. The average Avernite can read and write, knows what things are like, and has first-hand experience of what bad rulership/bureaucracy is like under the Empire. They are also, unlike the Chinese peasants, quite often armed and quite often trained with those arms. I don't think Avernum really supports the king at all. Taxes are presumably collected, but the government is clearly there because it's best for fending off the monsters. Edicts are out of the question, and most people just want to go about their business without interference. If the king were not able to provide his minimal services or stated getting grand ideas about really having despotic power I think he would be disabused quickly. Also, consider how much everyone, including Micah, disliked Chevyn and looked forward to his reign with distaste. —Alorael, who thinks you are conflating two separate ideas. Yes, groups often make use of symbols and leaders make good symbols. Actual leadership is not the same as playing figurehead, though. Big Brother is a symbol, not a leader. Hitler was some of both. Lenin and Mao were leaders who were made into symbols, the former posthumously and the latter during his lifetime. Garzahd was an effective leader and a threat to Avernum personally, but his death only deprived the Empire of tactics and some power. It didn't break the Empire's spirit or its desire to defeat Avernum. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 12:36
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On the topic of the Myst games: In Myst you find the rooms of the the villains. You find notes, thrones, wine, torture instruments. This gives a character some flavor, although it does not make the character. In Riven you find the journal of your villain, way for the villain to tell you their feelings with out actually telling you. In Myst IV you go onto each of the son's prisons and find you find their journals, feel their pain. In short more personal letters, journals, and investigating the villains environment. These all give a villain more flavor. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 12:42
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I think the point where you and the rest of us differ (which doesn't seem to be getting much attention, despite its importance), Tullegolar, is here: quote:The thing is, most of us don't agree with what you are telling us to assume. That's like saying "Let's assume 1 + 1 = 3. Does it not make sense then that 3 X 3 = 4?" Although it's a logical conclusion to come to based on the assumption, the assumption itself is flawed to begin with, and therefore so is any conclusion drawn from it. I'm not saying that nobody likes this in a game. They obviously do, since Jeff is making a good living off it. But the purpose of this thread was to start a debate with those who don't like his plots, and the people you chose to debate with disagree with your opinions. I believe there are various sayings about arguing over personal opinions, but I don't feel like recalling or looking for them right now because it really isn't important to the discussion anyway. -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 13:36
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Tullegolar: What difference does the genre make? It's not as though good villains in, say, novels are inherently different from good villains in computer games. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 13:48
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Micah became king because he united the people in the caves and he created the Kingdom of Avernum. He was allowed to keep his kingdom because he stayed out of everyone's business and kept the monsters away and helped Avernum stay running smoothly. If he tried to overstep his boundaries, I think he'd quickly be reeled back in. The people of Avernum were very wary of falling under a new Emperor in a new Empire. The mayors ARE NOT an aristocracy. They are administrators who run the city, not people who sit back and rake in money. People look to them for guidance, but only because they control the city's militia and spending. I don't think the people would waste a second in pulling down a mayor either. The people of Avernum are not inclined to support a hereditary monarchical system - they recognize that that was what caused the Empire to degenerate into what it was. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 14:02
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quote:So he goes around killing people. Big whoop. That does not a three-dimensional character make. Would the impact of any of those events really be any less if they'd been carried out by anonymous Enclave soldiers? I don't think so. quote:Nope. But System Shock 2 is playable in DOSBox if you have a fast enough computer. (By the way, he only mentioned one game. SHODAN, The Many and Xerxes are all villains from it.) quote:Who says every game has to end in a violent confrontation? If walking up to a villain and whacking him with a sword until he dies doesn't seem like a satisfying ending given the nature of the villain's character, the designer has the option to not end the game that way. There are some very good BoE scenarios that have no combat in them at all. [ Wednesday, September 13, 2006 14:08: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 14:16
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And Geneforge proves that you can defeat villains without killing them and the game doesn't suffer. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 14:56
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quote:BoE sure as hell is. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 15:06
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Alorael: I know there is a difference between leadership and being a figurehead, that's why I said Chevyn would have a puppet master. I thought the Darkside Loyalist leader being this person was a good idea, no one else liked that? As for Garzahd, how was he not the driving force behind the Empire army? As I said before, the entire army could have been crushed to the last man, but if Garzahd had lived, the war would have continued regardless. The Almighty...: You say that you don't agree with my view of a good plot. That's fine, that is the whole point of this thread. But if you disagree, you are then supposed to give me your idea of a good plot in return. Please do this. Kelandon: Yes, game villains and novel villains are too inherently different! Your examples made this blatantly obvious! You are welcome to present me with a better example if you can. Draykfire: I think you give the common people of Avernum too much credit. As long as a king keeps the bandits away, they are not going to try anything. If they did, they would fall into anarchy. I doubt they could even organize to overthrow him in the first place. Could Chevyn keep the bandits away? If the Darkside Loyalist leader was his reagent, he would own the bandits. Thuryl: Your are becoming confused, though that is to be expected from such a long thread. I explained Horrigan's crimes to show that he was the game's primary antagonist, because someone said Fallout 2 didn’t have one. I never said he was any good at filling that roll, in fact, he really is a crappy final boss. As for every game ending with a violent confrontation: I didn't mean any game. We are in the Avernum forum, are we not? Avernum games must end with a violent confrontation. In Geneforge 1 and 2 you could let some bosses live, but then the endings were not nearly as satisfactory. Edit: Ash Lael: You don't say? Roses of Reckoning sort of ruined that game for me at the time, but... I'll start working my way through the scenarios you guys recommend this weekend. Forgive me for not being able to comment until then. [ Wednesday, September 13, 2006 15:13: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 15:14
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quote:While there is in fact a RoR for BoE as well as BoA, I suspect you're thinking of the latter. BoE is a very different animal, with many more scenarios and a higher caliber of them. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 15:20
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Roses of Reckoning is not good in the BoE or BoA version. There are many scenarios that are much better for both. Tullegolar, I think you're not giving the people of Avernum enough credit. They were obviously dangerous enough to warrant being Exiled, and they are hardy enough to survive in the caves. And no, I don't like the idea of Chevyn being a puppet king controlled by the Darkside Loyalists - how would that even happen? When it was his turn to rule, nobody, NOT EVEN MICAH, would have allowed it. That's why the Council of Avernum ruled until Houghton made everyone accept Starrus as king. If anything, Houghton is your puppetmaster, despite being a loyal servant to Micah and Avernum for decades. EDIT: I think you're letting your imagination run wild and are now contradicting things explicitly stated and referenced in the games. The Avernum you're talking about and one I know seem to be different places. Also, I think that book villain and computer game villains are different. In books, people often end up having inner demons and a lot of self-conflict. This doesn't work for a computer game where the user creates their own character. It works for scenarios, which are shorter adventurers that come for free. But a "commercial" (I'm using this term loosely) game can't do that with the same freedom. Would you buy a computer game where the character was already defined for you and sometimes spoke and acted in ways that you would never do? The same applies for villains. In books authors can define exactly what everyone does. In any good computer game the user will be able to change things and impact events. The programmers will have to account for every possible action of the player. Although it seems backwards, there's a lot less flexibility in a computer game. [ Wednesday, September 13, 2006 15:26: Message edited by: Drakefyre ] -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 15:43
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Here is how I would take the throne of Avernum as the leader of the Darkside Loyalists. I assume that the leader's identity is kept very secret, and that he is also very, very powerful. I also assume that Chevyn's ineptitude, while well known by Castle officials, was kept largely from the public. This is not too far fetched for you, is it? I would then pick up Chevyn, wherever he is, and get to work. First, I use my power over bandits. Now is the time to act, make Starrus look like he is losing control of Avernum. Second, start paying of and/or killing the Mayors of Avernum. If they support me, perfect, if not, assassinations are common enough. Third, spread the propaganda. Tell the people that Starrus usurped the throne of Avernum from the rightful heir, the first born son. Now, the rightful ruler has returned. After all, they would think if Chevyn is leading this revolt then he must be pretty smart. Few would be able to realize I was pulling his strings. Finally, have a charismatic general lead the march on the Castle in the name of the True Prince! If it works, awesome. If those blasted adventurers get in my way, well... it makes for a good plot, doesn’t it? I'm letting my imagination run wild? This is the "how would you do it" thread! You must be looking for the "how was it done" thread. I don’t post in that one. Edit: Oh, the people of Avernum. What makes you say they are dangerous? Most were just people who either said the wrong thing or thought the wrong thought. If there are any dangerous Avernites at all, they are in the Abyss. As for the Abyss, I think they would jump at the chance to help me overthrow the King of Avernum! There you have it, the most dangerous people in Avernum are taken care on. [ Wednesday, September 13, 2006 16:00: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 16:05
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I'm not talking about how it was done, I'm talking about fundamental things about the world of Avernum. Like this: quote:This just simply isn't true. Pretty much everyone knew Chevyn was a simpleton. The games state this. Chevyn masterminding a revolt would be extremely suspicious. Just because someone isn't a murderer or rapist (the people in the Abyss) doesn't mean they aren't dangerous. There are plenty of surface revolutionaries in Avernum. They may not all be physically dangerous, but dangerous to the society supported by the Empire, certainly. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 16:14
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quote:Where? Do I actually expect you to look up exactly where this was stated? Yes. As for people being dangerous in Avernum. What do we really know about them? They are not too smart, not that it's their fault, but they are the equivalent of medieval peasants. That original generation of exiles... aren't they dying off? I think a new generation is standing by waiting to be molded, waiting to be told what to do. After all, if you in a cave surrounded by things that want to kill you, who are you going to go to? Chevyn the True Price offers you his protection. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 16:19
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Even if I did say what I preferred in a game, it would just be repeating what everyone else has already said. I was simply making an observation that I felt was relevant to the conversation. -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 16:30
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No, you're not actually looking at the people you interact with in Avernum. They're not like peasants. They're reasonably worldly, mostly hard-nosed, and frequently cynical from their banishments. They may not all be fighters, but they all at some point didn't bow down to authority. You're right that Chevyn could rule as long as he kept the bandits away, but that's not power. As soon as he overstepped his bounds and tried proactive rulership, he'd be ousted. Nobody wants a monarch, really. Tied in with that is the fact that Micah is called king as a title without actually being the head of a monarchy. The first-born is not automatically the heir. In fact, given how much Avernum doesn't want to remake the Empire, I'm surprised they made kingship hereditary at all. The upshot is that nobody would care to replace a competent ruler with another ruler, even a possibly equally competent one. Houghton may be Starrus's puppet master, but he does a good job so everyone accepts it. Someone else could manage Starrus (or Chevyn, if he were on the throne) but controlling the king only allows as much control as the king can claim, and in Avernum that's really not very much. Finally, I think we may just have to disagree about Garzahd and the Empire. It's definitely true that Garzahd would keep fighting (and does) if the rest of the Empire is no longer behind him. However, you assume that the Empire would not keep fighting without Garzahd. That is false within the games, and there's no reason it should be true. Garzahd is certainly no more important to the workings of the Empire than Hawthorne was, and the Empire survived Hawthorne's assassination well enough to launch itself into a war. I'm sure someone happily picks up the reins of power when Garzahd falls and does a fine, lower profile job of directing the army. —Alorael, who agrees with Thuryl. Horrigan is not a bad boss because the point is not defeating Frank Horrigan. He's just an exemplar of the Enclave. The Enclave is collectively your enemy, and having random Enclave goons perform Frank's massacres would make them just as evil and defeating them just as satisfying. Compare this (again) to Nethergate's ending, in which you do battle with powerful figures from the opposite side that you've never met before. They're personally unimportant except as representatives of the Romans or Celts, but that doesn't make the Romans or Celts collectively any less antagonistic. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 17:30
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Your were right when you said it was strange that the citizens of Avernum ended up with a monarchy as their form of government. Why would they do that? Oh yeah, it's because they are peasants and they are incapable of functioning on their own without someone to lead them. Sure they once scoffed at authority, but that generation is dying. And no, that trait does not pass on genetically. Just look at Australia, the one time penal colony which now has one of the lowest crime rates on the planet. No matter how hardy Avernites may be, any group of people can, with the proper motivation, be lead around like sheep. There will be those that see what is happening and resist, but as the Cultural Revolution in China showed, they can be silenced. As for Horrigan, the game would definitely be less satisfying without him. It is always good to be able to put a face with evil actions. Do we blame Germany for the Holocaust? No, we blame Hitler, even though many were at fault. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 17:46
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Avernum ended up with a monarchy because MICAH MADE AVERNUM. Micah was a warrior who united the people who had been Exiled and created the nation. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 18:07
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So you admit that such a leader is necessary, and that Avernum would have perished without him? Very good. My point is made. I also believe that such virtuous leaders and the figurehead/puppeteer combination are interchangeable. Your thoughts? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 18:27
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Where do you get that from what I said? I said that Avernum would not have *existed* without him. Would it have survived if he had stepped down after creating it? Absolutely. Besides, he was not an absolute ruler. He shared half of the power with the Council of Avernum. This balance shifted after he died - first the Council had all of the power, and then Starrus/Houghton had all of the power. I don't agree that the figurehead and virtuous leader are interchangeable. It worked with Starrus as a figurehead, but it wouldn't with Chevyn. Anyone could visit the Castle to make a claim or request, and Chevyn wandered around the halls telling anyone who'd listen about how he'd make his lizard his prince after he became king. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 18:50
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quote:Had he stepped down before defeating Grah-Hoth, no. Had he stepped down before the Empire War, certainly not. All the descriptions of King Micah describe him as overworked. Perhaps we have underestimated how much power he has. The Council was able to rule for a short time, yes, but this was during a most unorthodox period of peace. The council would have fallen apart had they still be ruling when Rentar returned. Why? Without a central leader, each mayor would have been more concerned with his/her own town to form an organized resistance. Speculation? Common sense. Starrus and Houghton took Micah's place, so king and figurehead/puppeteer have proven interchangeable. As for Chevyn being passable as a figurehead. I suppose that is the deal breaker for you, then. I am merely trying to think up an interesting possible alternate Avernum plot. Unfortunately, you are doing to me what you did to Jeff: trying to beat it to death instead of being constructive. A pity. I still like the idea. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 18:56
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You forget that the Council ruled Avernum during the Second Slith War. They didn't do a bad job there. And when did I beat Jeff's ideas into the ground? Rentar coming back makes sense but is disappointing. Chevyn being a puppet for the Darkside Loyalists and being accepted as king just doesn't make sense given what we know about Avernum. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 19:00
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quote:Since I explicitly said that Avernum is not a monarchy, it's pretty clear that they're not incapable of functioning without one. Micah was never a figurehead. He was a leader and a warrior who became a leader and a secretary. I find it more plausible that he's overworked because he has duties piled on top of him, not because he is taking power to himself. What privileged ruler deliberately overworks himself? As for the Council being ineffective and self-centered, I question your reasoning. Who is to say that they aren't just as patriotic as the king? For that matter, what gives you the idea that the response from the Castle was anything but paralysis in the face of the shades? Neither the mayors nor the king accomplished anything. —Alorael, who thinks many things could be done differently and perhaps better if Avernum were reimagined from the beginning. If A1-3 are accepted, however, Chevyn cannot have power even if he has the throne, so no one would bother to back him. It would have been interesting to see the results of Houghton's assassination if he were ruling alongside Chevyn instead of the much more capable Starrus. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 19:17
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Drakefyre: Forgive me, I did not mean you specifically when I said you beat Jeff's plot to death, I should have specified. Second Slith War? How did I manage to miss this? Did I miss some kind of tome somewhere that explains this war? Now I'm burning with curiosity... where is this war mentioned? Alorael: You say Micah had worked piled on him, how does that make him not a monarch? It seems he was actually running things. As for the crown not taking any action during Avernum 4, afraid you’ve made an error there. Forget Almaria? But Starrus didn't send the troops to Almaria, Houghton did. Oh, good point. So a puppeteer can overstep his boundaries after all! Almaria, even under the chaotic influence of the shade, failed to stand up against the king's advisor. Is my idea really so implausible now? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Wednesday, September 13 2006 20:26
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quote:Most explicitly in Jeff's BoA scenario Za-Khazi Run, but there is at least one reference to it — I forget the location — in A4. EDIT: Captain Matos in Fort Monastery makes reference to it. Pea Eye, under Silvar, gives the only real description that I remember: "It was a small one, but nasty, not too long after Empress Prazac let the Avernites back onto the surface. I helped ferry supplies down the Za-Khazi Run, after some other adventurers cleared it out." [ Wednesday, September 13, 2006 20:48: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |