How would you do it?
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, September 11 2006 15:13
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quote:This sounds like Rentar to me. Anyway, I am beginning to understand what you all want, but just barely. You seem to want a game where NPCs and the environment evolve and change completely independent of player action. I am having trouble visualizing this. Can you give me an example of such a game? The closest I can think of would be a MMORPG like World of Warcraft. Is that seriously what you expect from Spiderweb? Be reasonable. As for making the plot more oriented on Darkside Loyalists: this is a worthy suggestion. However, Avernum 3 left off with Rentar still holding a grudge against you, so she had to make a comeback. In a way, Avernum 4 was a bridge between two different stories and a way to test a new combat system. I am sorry you all think the test was such a failure. You don't think such experiments should be able to pass for a real game? Well, Nethergate was an experiment too, in a way. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Monday, September 11 2006 15:18
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Rentar's comeback was lame! Water monsters instead of barriers from Avernum 2, and shades instead of plagues. If she's going to come back, she should bring fire and brimstone and massive destruction! It would have been better leaving that hanging (she did say she would plot for generations) and going with darkside loyalists. And I think something really interesting could have been done between Houghton and Starrus and that potential power struggle there. Maybe civil discord would give the Darkside Loyalists the confusion they needed to strike. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Monday, September 11 2006 15:33
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quote:I do not want things to happen completely independent of the player's actions, that's NEVER what I said. I said more should other characters should do things in response to the player's action, outside of their control. I'm not sure how I can be more clear. The worlds in Avernum are too static. They should be more reactive to the player's actions. Right now, the extent is villains run away and people change their conversation options. Nobody actually really does anything in response to the events around them. For example, kill a bandit leader and another rival bandit leader moves his band in to take their turf. I'm sure I could think of more, but it's very situationally dependent. The party does something and a bunch of consequences, intended and unintended would happen. Also, creativity is cheap. quote:Not really. Yeah, you hear about her from other people, but she doesn't really DO a whole lot other than sit and wait for you to kill her. After you almost do, you chase her and kill her. Why should I care about Rentar? I really don't. She's just another architype villain with some beef and makes lots and lots of monsters. I could have interchanged her for any other villain. Her actions are so predictably bland and senseless from my perspective that I'm indifferent about her. I don't hate her, I don't sympathize with her, she's just another enemy plain and simple. She doesn't interact with any of the other characters in the story really, she's just out to make trouble for [insert motive here]. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, September 11 2006 15:46
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Fair points from Drakefyre. What is this fire and brimstone and massive destruction you suggest? She took out the Army of Avernum, didn't she? As for Houghton and Starrus, I was suspecting more political intrigue there as well. A pity that whole angle was left undeveloped. As for *i, there are plenty of events driven by player actions. Rentar tries to kill you at one point, even. She does anything but just sit around waiting to be killed. And I think your example of environmental reaction, bandits rebuilding their forts, makes little sense. I suppose it would add to the overall content, but why would you want to kill bandits in the same place twice? Why not just add another bandit dungeon all together? Jeff did this many times over in Avernum 4. I really liked all those different bandit dungeons! If I am still misunderstanding you, please give more examples of what you mean by the game responding to the player's actions. As for Rentar, once again I express my sincere disappointment that you missed out on the true depth of that character. She really is interesting once you understand her. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Monday, September 11 2006 16:13
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Where does Rentar try and kill you aside from the hackfest in the Sulphrous Flats? The "trap" was so contrived it makes me laugh that I purposely have to be so stupid as to fall into it. I understand Rentar's character quite well. The problem is twofold: Jeff never exploits it, and she's just like Erika except on the "wrong" side. She could have been a great villain, but her actions could have been done by anyone in A4. They aren't unique to her in any way. You are correct about the environmental changes. They don't necessarily have to take the same lair, just a different one in the same region. Of course, I would extend this to main plot stuff. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, September 11 2006 17:21
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Let's suppose instead of the flats battle Rentar uses her little chit-chat to convince you that she has her forces built up somewhere, say in the Abyss. You convince Houghton or Starrus, get a big army sent there, and attack Rentar-Ihrno. You win. However, actually Rentar just wanted the Avernite army out of the way so she could break through Fort Remote and start rampaging through the Great Cave. Now you've got an entirely new situation because a villain did something. That would work very well. It's not that things have to happen without the party being involved. Everything can still eb triggered by player actions as long as some of those things are not direct consequences of what the player wants to do. A sudden change from "Let's kill Rentar-Ihrno!" to "Oh no! Let's save the children being killed in Dharmon!" would keep things interesting. —Alorael, who doesn't think A4 is a failure. He likes it. He just doesn't like it for its plot, which is like A3's only less interesting. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Monday, September 11 2006 17:49
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There was one really good thing about Exile/Avernum 3 and that was time was important. The longer you took to get to an area and remove the plague source, the more damage the towns took. People that you needed to see would move on to new locations. Jeff would hate the extra work, but having the scripts tied directly to a day counter could alter what you have to do in the game. Take too long to reach a city and you find the Darkside Loyalists have taken control. Not this secret forts where they are plotting, but have them running things. Then you would have to sneak into a hostile area with maybe some people that might help you out and assassinate the Loyalist leader to regain control. The game would change with how long you took to play it. If you race to reach someplace earlier, then you would be weaker, but facing a different quest. Delay until you are stronger and now face a harder challenge. Now the NPC actions would have greater importance and you would have to react to their plans. No more I died in this area so I'll come back later and try again. You would have to find a solution with what you have now. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, September 11 2006 18:23
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*i: You don't think plagues of monsters are unique to Rentar? Who else do you know who unleashes such a variety of hordes upon unsuspecting towns? I think that was the whole point! "Plagues of monsters? Oh, no! It must be Rentar!" The whole point was that you associated Rentar with the monster plagues, and that's yet another element that gave her character. As for the trap, yes, it was painfully obvious. But... didn't you get a warm fuzzy feeling when you realized she was thinking about you? Alorael: Not sure I understand what you are saying. Aren't the events you described what actually happened in the game minus the involvement of the adventurers. But apparently, most people like it when things happen independent of the adventurers. Randomizer: What you are describing sounds a lot like Avernum 3 with a Darkside Loyalists plot. A worthy goal. This gets my Emperor's Seal of Approval™. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Monday, September 11 2006 18:42
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The other thing that made the game so shallow was the predictability. From Motrax's Lair, we knew the monsters were going to made by Rentar. It didn't take much to guess that she'd be a Crystal Soul (I figured this out right away just because it's a predictable step) and that we would get to kill her in some epic battle. Making monster plagues is an element to her character, except that it goes with most other villains in lots of games in the guise of minions. Creating hordes of monsters are hardly unique; in fact, it's quite predictable (summoning undead, etc). Basically, monster plagues (or equivalently hordes of minions) are a cop out, an excuse giving the party something else to do rather than having Rentar do anything herself. In my book, the monster plague overreliance made her a worse villain. As for the "trap", it felt too contrived for me to care. Anytime we have to resort to "stupid party tricks" (here walk right into this obvious trap for no other reason than to collect the plot coupon) it's a major turn off. It didn't help Rentar's character, it lowered my opinion of the game's plot. A4 was a good hackfest game, as it was intended to be. Jeff himself said this. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Monday, September 11 2006 19:39
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I want to reiterate, because I personally haven't done it enough yet, that I kinda liked A4. I just didn't like its plot. (Several others have said this, too.) Tullegolar, you said that you felt sorry for those of us who couldn't "read between the lines." There's a very big difference between "reading between the lines" and "making stuff up." You can make up a very exciting story about Rentar and her motives on the basis of A4. So can I. However, A4 doesn't give us that information. A4 doesn't make us care. I don't want to sit down and have tea with Rentar, but some sort of exposition — a note left behind in a dungeon/fortress, a conversation with a few of her former associates, some talk with other high-ranking vahnatai — would be nice. To be fair, Jeff does some of this. Rentar leaves behind a message for you at the trap. I think you have a conversation with her once or twice more. But that's it. In the entire darn game. For a main villain, she says next to nothing! If the whole game is going to be about defeating Rentar-Ihrno — one quest, not three like A1 or A2, not six like A3, with no real artifact quests to speak of — then I'd like Rentar-Ihrno to get a little more dialogue! I have yet to play a Blades scenario with a really compelling villain, as far as I can recall, but they exist. Alcritas made a few, I suspect. And I have no doubt that these compelling villains get a few more lines than Rentar does, or at least a little more description of their motives, their background, and their struggles. Their struggles! A really compelling villain is one with whom we can identify at least to some extent, whether you're talking about Satan from Paradise Lost or Cartman from South Park. A great villain presents a sympathetic case, a compelling argument, something that we can latch onto and say, "That could be me!" Rentar is just crazed. We can't agree with her. We have no reason to. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, September 11 2006 19:56
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*i: Plot coupon? Is that how you see it? Well then, all I can say it that I am sorry that you let your highly critical attitude keep you from enjoying the simpler pleasures of the game. Alas... Even I can summon undead, that's not the point. The monster plagues were in no way like hordes of minions as you say. Hordes of minions would be like what the Darkside Loyalists have. They have a bandit fort here, another there, three more over yonder. Rentar, on the other hand, gave us the much needed variety. The Filth Factory is a personal favorite. You think the game was too predictable? You must be a genius, I'll bet no one else had any idea that Rentar would return to wreak havoc once again! Except for the fact that she said she would. You were supposed to expect her. The suspense was not "who is creating these monsters" it was "were finally going to defeat our long time rival." That is what makes the plots in Avernum 3 and 4 different. We've overlooked this, it seems. Of course, Avernum 4 was not meant to have a big twist plot. You are correct when you say that. Why then do you insist on judging the game by that very factor? Kelandon: Perhaps I was making stuff up. Is that not the point? Do you even know what RPG stands for? If you really need a game where everything is spelled out for you, play something else. Then again, was I making stuff up? Vahnatai do revere crystal souls, right? Rentar is a vahnatai, right? She was merely following her own beliefs by attacking the Empire, how is that crazy? When here people stopped supporting her, if they ever even did, she had nothing left but her hatred for humanity. It doesn’t take a psychologists to figure this out. Just because you can’t connect the dots on your own doesn’t mean I’m making things up. To end this unfortunately long post: quote:Now who’s writing the crappy plots? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Monday, September 11 2006 21:36
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Quick point: Many of the people who complain about Jeff's games have in fact made their own Blades scenarios. If you want to see how we would do things, you could, you know, play them. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, September 11 2006 22:47
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quote:Frankly, when applied to single-player computer games, "RPG" is little more than a marketing term for a game with a particular style of gameplay. The practical limitations in game design today, in terms of programmers' time, computational power, and designers' ability to anticipate what a player might want to do, simply don't allow for a game designer to provide very much meaningful choice in player character development or actions. At best a game can give the player a choice between a finite number of preset options in each situation -- and the availability of those options is defined by the game designer, not the player. Games that allow for real creativity or innovation on the part of the player are few and far between, and the ones that do exist aren't RPGs as we normally think of them. Sure, you can always pretend that characters and NPCs are doing things that aren't explicitly spelled out in the game, but then you're not playing the game-as-designed any more; you're making your own game which happens to include the game-as-designed as part of it. [ Monday, September 11, 2006 22:51: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 04:13
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I would have preferred to see more interaction with all sorts of Vahnatai, not just the evil Vahnatai but more of the friendly Vahnatai too. I also would have preferred fewer chitrachs in the Eastern Gallery and more of the "traditional" monsters of Avernum - nephilim and sliths. I think that it would be worthwhile for Tullegolar to play some of the best scenarios (CSR 9+?) and see more of what people are talking about, but he also has very good points and is the first person I've seen to come on the boards and argue these points successfully. Props to you. I love this thread. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 05:04
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quote:It was neat in A3, it was old in A4. I'm not the only one who had the whole plot thing figured out quite early on. Ironically, I e-mailed Jeff during beta testing upon reaching the Eastern Gallery telling him what was going to happen. After this he pretty much admitted that plot was not why he was making this game. How did I know this? Well, let's just say I've been in the Blades designing community for a long time. The exact same plot was the tool of many failed scenario designers. Efforts I have seen were comical. Seeing the newbish plot replayed in an actual Avernum game was wrenching. The Darkside Loyalists could be a really good villain for exactly the opposite of the reason you state. They are generally few in number so their tactics have to be shadowy. This would make a very convincing and unique villain for A5. I think the problem with Rentar, going back to her, is not the absolute depth of character, it's what we really get to see of it. Her interactions with the party are fairly minimal. Her interactions with other characters (aside from Erika I suppose) are non-existent. That's the main problem, in terms of character interaction in the story she's passive. She may make monster machines, set predictable traps, and run away when you encounter her, but she does little in terms of storyline. quote:I don't expect a game to have a huge plot twist, but it would be nice if I couldn't predict most of everything about 1/5 through the game. The Darkside Loyalists were good in this respect, I couldn't predict them nearly as well. Things in a story should flow logically, but sometimes the player has to be presented with new, previously unknown, information and events that changes the situation. A3 does this quite well. As for A4, had Rentar started as the enemy, events happen, and you end up fighting for a common cause again due to some major series of events, A4 would have been cool. [ Tuesday, September 12, 2006 05:06: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 06:51
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You both seem to think that there should have been more interaction with the Vahnatai in general and Rentar in particular. I am not so sure about this. The Vahnatai are notorious for being uncomfortable around humans. I think Jeff always intended for them to be alien in out eyes. That is why we never really get to know them or even really understand their motives. In fact, could it be that this burning curiosity we were left with regarding Rentar and the Vahnatai's motives was intentional? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 07:08
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quote:I think it's fair to say that every SW message board regular and every Blades designer could guess the entire "Rentar" plot of A4 from this page. It's worth noting that Cavanoskus guessed immediately based on the scantest information. A4 was predictable. quote:I don't know where you're getting this bizarre idea that many of us are saying that we don't like the game. Stareye said that A4 was a good hacking game. I think the same thing. It just has a garbage plot. quote:No, it's not the point. If I wanted to make up my own story about what Rentar's background, motivations, and intentions are, I would do that (and maybe make a Blades scenario). I play Avernum games because I want to see someone else's rendition of these ideas. quote:I don't know what you think that the fact that you're playing a role of some sort — whether chosen by you from a list of options or chosen by the designer for you — has to do with how detailed the background about the NPCs is. quote:Yes, but Rentar behaves differently from other vahnatai. Many felt that they had been wronged, but not all cooperated with her in attacking the Empire. Why does Rentar have such strong feelings about this? Why is she choosing to resort to violence? With the information we're given, it appears to be part of her personality: she's just a violent individual. That makes her a simple murderer, which makes her a cartoon villain. quote:Why did her people stop supporting her? When? Why did they disappear after A3? Your explanation leaves more questions than it answers. But about Rentar's psychology: she did in fact have nothing left but her hatred for humanity. What kind of character does that make her? A one-dimensional one! She has only one motivation: the desire for genocidal vengeance! Why, in A4, is she attacking Avernum? The Empire stole the crystal souls. Apparently her desire is to kill all humans for the errors of just a few. This makes her, again, a simple cartoon villain. quote:I do realize that A4 gives some answers about Rentar's motivations. The answers that it gives seem to indicate that she's a one-dimensional evil character. I'm not saying that her actions are unmotivated; I'm saying that they appear to be motivated by pure personal evil. A4 needs to tell us more in order for Rentar not to be a simple evil character. quote:Intriguing. You think that a message left behind in a dungeon/fortress is a crappy plot. What, then, do you think of exactly that in A4? -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 07:20
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quote:I thought this was fairly obvious - Avernite adventurers foiled her plot for revenge on the Empire. Now she's getting revenge on them for stopping her initial revenge. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 07:45
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quote:Well, you're right. She doesn't just randomly choose Avernum. However, she wants revenge on all of Avernum because of the actions of four Avernite adventurers. She says, "My dispute is with your kind." What she is after is genocidal revenge, whether ill-placed or well-placed. And what is this thing with R-I and revenge? It just makes her look hate-filled and spiteful. Again, a cartoon villain. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 08:37
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quote:Interesting. Garzahd, Erika, and Rentar-Ihrno (and also a few characters and sects in Geneforge) all have failings because of their obsessions with revenge. Garzahd's and Rentar's are fatal and Erika's isn't, presumably because she's portrayed as more of a hero. Actually, Erika's is interesting; her obsession precipitates the invasion of Avernum, but then redeems herself by defending it and giving her life to stop Rentar. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 11:12
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Good point, Slarty. Kelandon, can you give me an example of a multidimensional villain so that I have a better idea of what you are looking for? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 12:02
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The other thing is the overuse of revenge as a motivator in Jeff's games. I think that contributes the Rentar's blandness...I've been wronged so I'll come up with some dastardly scheme to destroy all that is good in the world, ho hum. Commander Groul in Nephil's Gambit for Blades of Exile comes to mind as a decent villain. He had more than trivial motives and decent methods. Stalker is not too bad either. Sovereign, although we never actually see/meet him, is pretty cool in Alcritas' arc because we get to see and hear all the bad things he does to the characters in the game. Never meeting Sovereign and not knowing his identity fueled his personna in a lot of ways. Come to think of it, Sovereign and Rentar have a bit in common, had she been more like Sovereign then it would have been a lot better. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 12:16
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Revenge is a running theme in Avernum. Hawthorne exiled you, so you killed him, which angered Garzahd, who in turn pissed of Rentar. It was kind of the... if you'll pardon the expression... thing. It was the thing! As for a dastardly scheme to destroy all good in the world... wrong. That's not what I saw. I saw a noble crusade to rid the world of evil. The Empire, with its ruthless genocide of anything non-human, surely had it coming. And then there is Avernum, who betrayed their own allies to defend their one time mutual enemy! The turncoats! Avernum and the Empire are both evil, Rentar was only doing what she believed was right. I will play the scenarios you recommended. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 12:43
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In A1, killing Hawthorne is only one quest and there's no real plot. Hawthorne is clearly evil, not because his evil is obvious, but because you are told. He's a terrible villain. That's okay, though, because his villainy isn't really the point. In A2, the Empire attacks Avernum. That's more or less predictable. The Empire can't let itself be beaten by a bunch of exiles. Garzahd is their leader, but he's not an important leader. The plot is about stopping the Empire and being friends with the vahnatai along the way. A3 is about stopping plagues of monsters, discovering what's behind them, and then stopping Rentar-Ihrno from making more. The plagues are okay, such as they are, but the game is based mainly on the mystery and on exploring a huge new world. Rentar's revenge is questionable because the ones behind the kidnapping of the Crystal Souls were already killed in A2, but she doesn't care. Fair enough. A4 has A3's plot without the mystery, without any variation in enemies, really, and without a new area. Now Rentar-Ihrno has put her vengeance on her enemies on hold to get vengeance on secondary enemies who thwarted her primary vengeance, and she's happy to cause huge amounts of collateral damage to the people who also rescued the Crystal Souls. Not so good. —Alorael, who is just happy that Rentar-Ihrno is out of the center of the picture. Maybe Dorikas can get some time in the limelight. Maybe new things. New and good atmosphere make up for a lot of bad or nonexistent plot. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, September 12 2006 13:39
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quote:You can't give a race the spotlight for three games in a row while hammering on nothing but the point that they're alien and unknowable. Consider: more of what we know about the Vahnatai was revealed in A2 than in A3 and A4 put together. Small wonder, then, that in A3 and A4 the Vahnatai are starting to seem a little two-dimensional. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |