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Dextrous Agent in Geneforge Series
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #4
I'm going to buy two levels of missiles pronto when I get to San Ru. Other than that, I think I have to stick to pumping Dex and Luck. High Luck means I don't have to worry about missing anyway, and the goal is not to make myself have 50% dodge and a killer attack; it's to get 99% dodge and a decent attack. Dex pumps dodge and missiles. Missiles just pumps missiles. Dex wins.

The thorn batons would kill in two shots, but the one round of HP generation seems to be just enough to keep stuff alive. I'm still on Greenwood. Once I get to Harmony and get Speed that should make things a lot better.

Daze is a lifesaver as always, though not pumping Int or Mental Magic or Spellcraft (not yet, anyway) is annoying.

I'm not putting points into Strength unless I absolutely must. If I get the dodge high enough, I don't have to worry about heavy armor, especially once I get the armor spells.

Of course the agent will rule with missiles! It is a step down from spells, but it is a step up from a guardian with missiles. :D

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Guardians need help in Geneforge Series
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #25
*sigh*

Okay, here is why creations don't work well with Guardians:

In any kind of game like this, there are two basic strategies: offensive, and defensive. Offensive strategies involve having enough firepower to do relatively more damage to your opponent than they can do to you in each round. Defensive strategies involve preventing most or all of your opponent's attacks in some way, and then picking them off at leisure.

Defensive tactics usually work by minimizing the opportunity for the enemy to hit you -- minimizing the surface area, as it were. When defensive spells and skills have to be cast or built up or equipped for each character individually, the most effective way to produce a strong defense is to just use one character. This allows you to maximize the return you get out of defensive measures. A single piece of armor can reduce damage from all blows, not just one out of eight.

Offensive tactics, of course, desire the reverse -- maximum surface area. The more characters you run, the more attacks you get to make each round. And if you aren't building up anyone's defenses, it doesn't matter too much who gets hit; having more bodies just means each hit you receive counts for a smaller proportion of your total resources.

Defensive PCs will often find it useful to augment their attack and their defense as much as they can. Doubling their attack means they are twice as efficient at dealing with enemies. If you are part of a team of eight, on the other hand, doubling one character's attack isn't going to do much at all.

But if you are running a whole party, if you are running creations, it is purely and simply a waste to spend your resources helping just one of your characters when you have options available that could help the whole party. You could buy a point of Strength -- or you could buy a point of Magic Shaping, which will make up to seven creations one level higher, and half a point better in four statistics! You could buy a point of Strength -- or you could buy a point of Intelligence, probably providing enough essence to add Strength to each of your creations individually!

It's not that Melee + Creations can't be done. It's just a very inefficient strategy that makes poor use of your resources as a PC. You wind up with a weaker offense than an offensive party, without having better defense; and you wind up with a much weaker defense than a defensive singleton, with only a somewhat better offense.

--

As for melee guardians:
Of course it can be done, and of course it can be done on Torment. Nonetheless Bobby, no offense, but I am a little skeptical that you have played the entire game on Torment. Your comments sound like the things someone who playing on Normal would say. Why don't you post your Guardian's stats, and we can discuss whether it looks able to handle a swarm of Torment Rotdhizon?

Items can substitute for some effects, sure, but there are others that they can't make up for. DAZE is the most important of these. If you are playing on Torment, not all the Glaahk shields in the world will stop you from getting stunned to death; you either need to take out enemies at hyperspeed -- unlikely as a singleton on Torment -- or you need to have some way of incapacitating them.

(Blessing magic is not actually the issue, since you can buy 2 points for money, getting you War Blessing and Protection. Speed is at what, 3? And even getting to 6 or 7 for Steel Skin and Essence Armor is doable, though if you spend those skill points a comparable Agent can reach or exceed your combat skills in the meantime.)

The Missile Guardian build gets around this by using Madness Gems and other such powerhouses, if I remember correctly. The Melee Agent uses Daze and Strong Daze, often repeatedly. The Melee Guardian is helpless.

Whereas Quick Action and Parry drop off rapidly in usefulness after getting to 10, and there are LOTS of good items that boost them both, Mental Magic and Spellcraft need serious attention to make Daze viable, and there are few items that boost them. An Agent can drop 6 points (= 14 skill points, if you buy the first two) into each of those skills and be quite happy with the results. A Guardian who has 28 skill points to spend on magic skills -- let's assume he ignores blessing magic and just uses items wisely -- can get up to a whopping 5 in Mental Magic and 4 in Spellcraft. At that point, there's no reason to bother; Daze won't even work on the enemies you need it to.

A Guardian will, of course, have higher battle stats than an Agent, if that's the only place you put points. Specifically, each stat (Str, Melee, QA, Parry) will be somewhere between 1 and 4 points higher at any given time. I did the math out in the Guardian vs. Agent thread; you can google it. But again, a QA of 13 vs a QA of 10 is not much of a difference at all. Strength is only 1 point higher. HP are higher, but this is more than made up for by Essence Armor and Steel Skin. The Guardian ends up with no real advantages and a disadvantage in available strategy which, on Torment, is crippling.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Avernum V ideas in Avernum 4
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #9
Shadow47 = Ed.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Dextrous Agent in Geneforge Series
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #2
I've just started it and it's going great.

Well, mostly great. Thorn batons don't kill anything, and I'm very low on javelins. Icy crystals, on the other hand, are AMAZING. Now I know how you felt when you first ran the missile guardian.

I'm up to about 9 Dex and 6 Luck. The only other stat I pumped was a few obligatory points into Mechanics.

Weak enemies rarely hit me. Stronger ones do hit. I do well when I use crystals, or bless and shield. I have problems when I don't. I need more javelins and more wands of fire. (Never thought I'd say that.)

I think the key is going to be being very careful about what order I complete areas in. A difference of 2 levels is HUGE, and I can't go after enemies much stronger than I am -- I have to be patient. I'm not used to that so much.

I'm looking forward to getting some better equipment, maybe on Harmony. That will definitely make things easier.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
My God can beat up your God! in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #102
I see Infernal does not subscribe to the school of proving oneself to be more mature than one's detractors. Cmon man.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Guardians need help in Geneforge Series
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #20
DeVlish is right. I've already typed reams on this. Look for the Guardian vs. Agent thread. Guardians are only better melee fighters if you are going to ignore magic entirely, and if you do that, you will die, period -- and even then they are only mildly better at melee.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Dextrous Agent in Geneforge Series
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #0
(Goal: Keep enemy hit percentage at 1%.)

Here's another build thought. This came out of my singleton build for A4, which relied on Dex, Gymnastics, Luck, and Enduring Shield to boost my dodge chances to obscene levels.

At first glance, this seems more difficult in Geneforge, since you don't have the Gymnastics or Defense skills, which tended to contribute about 50% and 30% dodge bonuses, respectively, to my A4 build. However, Geneforge offers several advantages.

1) The Dex and Luck bonuses do not go to 50% power after 10 points. (YAY!)

2) Geneforge has the power of the Tiny Orbs of Mist! Used to enhance armor, they give the "Harder to Hit" bonus, which gives you a 5% bonus to dodge. There is also the usual selection of equipment and charms that naturally boost Dex, Luck, and Spellcraft.

3) Unlike in Avernum, the magical shield doesn't get weaker over time (within the same area, of course).

4) Your enemies make very few area of effect attacks. Those can't be dodged, and at the end of A4 there are lots of those.

5) Unlike in Avernum, most magical attacks get a bonus to hit of 10% or 20%. In Avernum, they tended to get a bonus of 40% or greater.

But here's the best part. Since you are putting lots of points into Dex and Spellcraft anyway, you end up being quite good with missiles and at least passable with spells -- so you're not playing a gimpy character at all.

Here's a rundown of dodging bonuses available:

5%/pt Dexterity
2%/pt Luck
5%/item with Tiny Orb of Mist enhancement
10% flat bonus for Protection
~10% flat bonus for Essence Shield
~18% flat bonus for Essence Armor (not cumulative with Shield)
~1-2%/pt Blessing Magic
~1-2%/pt Spellcraft
~1-2%/pt Essence Shield/Armor

As in Avernum, this is tremendously easy to pull off on lower difficulties -- the enemies are lower level, so they have naturally lower hit percentages -- but I think it can be done on Torment, too.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Excuse me? in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #5
There is a spell in some of the Phantasy Star games called "REBAN." IIRC it's actually quite useful -- a stat boost of some variety.

The sad thing is we will never know if this new Ed is really the same as the old Ed, or is just someone else being stupid.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Custom Names - images inside in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #14
Dikiyoba is wise as usual. Yes, I think that's a good idea. I think it would be quite amusing.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Exile2: Tomb of Delrin-Bok in The Exile Trilogy
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #7
The teleporter in Olgai won't work unless you have registered the game. It tells you that, of course.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Bobby pendragon in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #3
By "he," you mean yourself, right?

Toodle-ooo.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Guardians need help in Geneforge Series
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #10
quote:
Originally written by MagmaDragoon:

like medieval duels (except when there are packs of enemyes)
So basically, not like medieval duels at all. :P

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
These pretzels are making me thirsty. in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #30
Doh!

It's Marla Penny, not Marla Gibbs. Marla Gibbs is indeed the actress who played Florence on the Jeffersons. I don't know how I made that particular goof. Lack of sleep, I guess.

I blame Marlenny, for not getting me my socks on time :P

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Guardians need help in Geneforge Series
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #8
Again, the Guardian is slightly better than the Agent at melee skills, and purely in terms of skills themselves, he is very mildly better than the Shaper (but not, in fact, the Agent) at missile weapons.

The problem is that spells are invaluable support no matter WHAT your primary offensive strategy is, and the Guardian is left behind rather royally when it comes to accessing spells.

In my mind, the problem isn't that the Guardian is too weak, it's that support spells are too important and too powerful.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Avernum V in Avernum 4
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #380
Although I think importing characters in Avernum would be an awful idea, it is pretty common among Avernum's closest relatives in the RPG family. Besides Might and Magic, this was a feature of the Wizardry series (cited by Jeff as a major influence) and the AD&D Gold Box games. I want to say the Bard's Tale also did this, but I can't remember.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
These pretzels are making me thirsty. in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #25
Google was wrong. Well, partially wrong; you appear in multiple episodes. Most notably, you inform Thralni of his fiancée's bizarre death, of his own total disfigurement, and eventually you testify against him at trial.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Custom Names - images inside in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #9
I don't think it matters if it's whining or mocking; the key part is the excessive verbal masturbation.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
These pretzels are making me thirsty. in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #23
Ephesos, aren't you normally one of the people telling newbs to use google?

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Guardians need help in Geneforge Series
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #2
Guardians got weaker, but it's not as bad as you suggest.

quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion:

In G3, melee was shafted, along with parry, so the hardcore, torment playing people used missiles.
Average melee damage got reduced from 4.5 per die to 2.5 per die, but almost every magic and missile attack (shaper or creation) got reduced as well, albeit by less. Melee damage is still easier to pump, as you have two stats (Str + Melee) in addition to Quick Action, whereas spells and missile have just the two stats. Plus, high level melee weapons have base damage that adds many dice on. Spells don't -- at all -- and missiles have the drawback of having to carry and stock them. For that matter, spells have the drawback of having to pump Intelligence and keep leftover essence in addition to pumping the spell skills.

Also, note that since ALL melee attacks were weakened, but armor and HP levels were not, this also made it significantly less dangerous for the Guardian to stand out in the front lines, where he is most effective.

Finally, Parry was not shafted, it was just UNbroken. It's still a powerful skill.

quote:
Now, as detailed in the deadeye shaper thread, even the shaper is better ultimately in the end at missles than the Gaurdian.
The Shaper is NOT better at missiles in the end than the Guardian is. Period. The build may be better overall, but that's just because creations are powerful -- and that's part of Geneforge; it's been that way since the beginning.

quote:
The creatures that the gaurdian can shape are weak and die easily,
Uhh... is this a joke? It's true that if you're going to rely on shaping, you may as well be a Shaper. But Guardians are not significantly worse than shapers at it. If you pump one shaping stat, a Guardian will be 1-2 points behind a Shaper for the same investment of skill points. Since the shaping skills became extremely uneconomical once they get to 10, what this means in practice is just that a Guardian will spend 10 skill points more than a shaper would to make the same creations. If he spends those ten extra skill points, his creations will be EXACTLY THE SAME as a Shaper's.

Guardians do get 75% the essence of a Shaper, but since they have trouble accessing spells, they are unlikely to use as much, anyway. Lack of spells makes it harder to support their creations, but that's a separate problem.

The real problem is as follows: Melee + Creations is a much less effective combination than either Spells + Creations or Melee + Spells, and the Shaper and Agent obviously do the latter two better. Since Melee + Creations is the definition of the Guardian, there isn't much to do about this one.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
These pretzels are making me thirsty. in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #18
You stalk everyone. :P

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Custom Names - images inside in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #6
Well, you're not getting one from me. Nobody is. I'm not an admin, silly.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Custom Names - images inside in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #4
Yes, I know.

?_? is still the best description I could come up with for my reaction.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Graduation in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #16
Grats to everyone graduating.

And I think college is not so special as the capital letters above make it out to be... just give a thought to what you'll do with your life once it's over, and you'll be fine.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Custom Names - images inside in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #2
?_?

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
These pretzels are making me thirsty. in General
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #12
There are a lot of memorable characters missing -- Seinfeld tended to have at least one or two great bit parts per episode. There are some lacunae among the recurring ones, though. Uncle Leo is one of the more glaring ones.

Basically, I only did characters (and members) for whom somebody readily came up with a good pairing. If you're not listed, it may just be that there was no obvious match for you.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00

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