Guardians need help
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| Author | Topic: Guardians need help |
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Warrior
Member # 5550
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written Friday, May 26 2006 10:31
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Seriously, the Guardians need some buffing for G4. In G3, melee was shafted, along with parry, so the hardcore, torment playing people used missiles. Now, as detailed in the deadeye shaper thread, even the shaper is better ultimately in the end at missles than the Gaurdian. Gaurdians don't have any strategys for torment that others can't do better. The creatures that the gaurdian can shape are weak and die easily, using magic is just stupid, melee is a puny 1-4 damage counter, missle is done better by the other classes, parry not longer saves you. Where does this leave the guardian? -------------------- Q: What is the sound of one hand clapping? A: The sound of someone getting smacked upside the head. Duct tape is like the force. It has a good side and a dark side and it binds the universe together. Don't worry Alorael, custom titles are overrated. Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Friday, May 26 2006 10:53
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Not really.... They're perfectly fine if you're an experienced enough Gaurdian player. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, May 26 2006 11:22
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Guardians got weaker, but it's not as bad as you suggest. quote:Average melee damage got reduced from 4.5 per die to 2.5 per die, but almost every magic and missile attack (shaper or creation) got reduced as well, albeit by less. Melee damage is still easier to pump, as you have two stats (Str + Melee) in addition to Quick Action, whereas spells and missile have just the two stats. Plus, high level melee weapons have base damage that adds many dice on. Spells don't -- at all -- and missiles have the drawback of having to carry and stock them. For that matter, spells have the drawback of having to pump Intelligence and keep leftover essence in addition to pumping the spell skills. Also, note that since ALL melee attacks were weakened, but armor and HP levels were not, this also made it significantly less dangerous for the Guardian to stand out in the front lines, where he is most effective. Finally, Parry was not shafted, it was just UNbroken. It's still a powerful skill. quote:The Shaper is NOT better at missiles in the end than the Guardian is. Period. The build may be better overall, but that's just because creations are powerful -- and that's part of Geneforge; it's been that way since the beginning. quote:Uhh... is this a joke? It's true that if you're going to rely on shaping, you may as well be a Shaper. But Guardians are not significantly worse than shapers at it. If you pump one shaping stat, a Guardian will be 1-2 points behind a Shaper for the same investment of skill points. Since the shaping skills became extremely uneconomical once they get to 10, what this means in practice is just that a Guardian will spend 10 skill points more than a shaper would to make the same creations. If he spends those ten extra skill points, his creations will be EXACTLY THE SAME as a Shaper's. Guardians do get 75% the essence of a Shaper, but since they have trouble accessing spells, they are unlikely to use as much, anyway. Lack of spells makes it harder to support their creations, but that's a separate problem. The real problem is as follows: Melee + Creations is a much less effective combination than either Spells + Creations or Melee + Spells, and the Shaper and Agent obviously do the latter two better. Since Melee + Creations is the definition of the Guardian, there isn't much to do about this one. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, May 26 2006 11:49
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Pardon me, I beg to differ. My Bullseye Shaper was considerably better than anything the Guardian could muster. His blessing magic allowed him to do consistantly more damage, and Strong Daze allowed him to do it in complete safety. By the time the guardian pumped Blessing Magic enough to get Mass Energise and Mental Magic to get Strong Daze, his other skills would suffer greatly. Anything the Guardian can do the other classes can do better. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Friday, May 26 2006 14:01
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Except melee. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, May 26 2006 16:09
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No, the Agent can do melee just as good, if not better. Somebody went and crunched the numbers on that already. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5550
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written Friday, May 26 2006 18:15
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Thats my point exactly. Why bother being a gaurdian if other classes can do the same things better? The gaurdian needs help. -------------------- Q: What is the sound of one hand clapping? A: The sound of someone getting smacked upside the head. Duct tape is like the force. It has a good side and a dark side and it binds the universe together. Don't worry Alorael, custom titles are overrated. Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 03:24
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I dought it. I've done up 500 damage with two attacks and QA. I could beat a Rot by the beginning of Gull Island. With Melee. Nothing else. Could an Agent do that? Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 03:42
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Again, the Guardian is slightly better than the Agent at melee skills, and purely in terms of skills themselves, he is very mildly better than the Shaper (but not, in fact, the Agent) at missile weapons. The problem is that spells are invaluable support no matter WHAT your primary offensive strategy is, and the Guardian is left behind rather royally when it comes to accessing spells. In my mind, the problem isn't that the Guardian is too weak, it's that support spells are too important and too powerful. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 03:48
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quote:That isn't true. Otherwise, why they are ratend "Strong" in Combat Skills? :P Anyway, I think the Guardian is strong enough. I had problem in GF3/2 only at the benginning. But is true that is a little rude with strategies. You can only assaul the enemy, in front, like medieval duels (except when there are packs of enemyes) and occasionally heal yourself. Simple but efficient. -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 04:48
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quote:So basically, not like medieval duels at all. :P -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 06:11
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quote:Yes, with out breaking a sweat, on Torment, where it matters. Agents can take out whole packs in melee. With the right buffs, Augmentation, Steel Skin, Essence Armor, etc, an Agent becomes for all intents and purposes, physically immune. Something the Guardian can not do. If the Guardian becomes swarmed, he dies most of the time. The Guardian needs a way to process mobs. Multi enemy attacks. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 07:27
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No, but but can the Agent do that much damage with melee? Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 07:27
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I've been replaying G2 as a squad leader missile Guardian. I haven't put anything into melee, and I don't even carry a sword (though once or twice I've finished off an adjacent wounded rogue with a Fiesty Slap of Pain). I have kept two Fyoras alive from the very early game, and two Vlish made after reaching the Magus Complex. I'm now at level 20, having cleared out the demo and most of the Awakened lands. This team works fine, I think. The creations aren't exactly a legion of doom, but they pretty much pull their weight. Actually the Fyoras don't do nearly as much as the Vlish, but I'm keeping them out of sentiment, and because sometimes the Vlish run out of energy. My Guardian does actually use the fact that he's a Guardian, not a Shaper: with good armor and Parry, he stands in front of his creations and takes most enemy attacks. But he uses War Blessing and Protection constantly, and they make a huge difference. Overall, gameplay is somewhere in between the Shaper's 'micro-manage the army' and the Agent's 'shoot and run'. I named my Guardian 'Aubrey' with prescience, because combat feels like Nelson's navy: firing broadsides as we gradually close, then finishing with a short-range brawl. I think the reason this group is working better than what I've tried in the past is that everybody in the party is fighting, and fighting together. I still think it's very hard to keep battle creations alive on Torment, unless perhaps you're a Shaper with enough essence to make a mob of them. And a melee Guardian with a few artillery creations can also easily lose them, because if anything targets them he's often too far away to help them. But with my Guardian standing off and sniping along with his guys, everyone seems to be able to support each other. Perhaps part of my greater satisfaction with Guardian creations in this game, though, may be because my Guardian's missile attacks don't do as much damage as a melee Guardian's sword. So more enemies are getting pulled down with help from creations. With a melee Guardian, I find nothing dies until I hit it myself, and when I get around to doing that, it will die without help from creations. Anyway, though, the missile Guardian with a small squad of creations works, and is a different playing experience from an Agent or a Shaper. So my conclusion at this point is that the problem isn't with Guardians; it's with melee. Melee is just too dangerous on Torment. With armor and Parry you can pump up a single melee Guardian enough to handle it, but your creations can't get those, so they die. Is this problem really a problem? Maybe not. Maybe it's fine for Torment to force ranged tactics, with solo melee Guardian as an 'iron man' option for greater challenge. Or maybe there could be a skill, cheap for Guardians, that gives your creations extra armor, maybe also other combat buffs. It could represent your training and skilled command, or something. Or maybe just let Parry extend to creations in some degree. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 07:44
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What about a new kind of Magic, like Blessing, but only for Guardian... Some kind of magic that give you decent increase at your Combat Skills? -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 07:48
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quote:Yes. They can. Somebody did the numbers, and the Guardian's melee advantage with pumping skills burned out way to early and from that point on, both the Agent and Guardian spend the same number of skill points raising melee skill. The Guardian starts out with a small advantage that only lasts for a short time, and then the Agent not only catches up, but one ups the Guardian with the ability to self buff, use strong magic like Daze, and so on. And there is the problem. The Agent can pump all of her melee skills just as high as the Guardian can, and not suffer at all, just become more well rounded and deadly as time passes. The Guardian on the other hand, if he tried to pump magic to a level of support that the Agent has, he would cripple himself and make himself useless as a character. The Agent can have her cake and eat it too... You can make a jacked up melee based Agent and not suffer in the slightest. Melee characters need some kind of specialised magic, like Commands or something, like SoT touched on. I am really not sure how to fix this issue, but magic it self is the overpowering element. It is just to strong. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 08:50
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Then why don't you prove the numbers right? I don't think that the agent does that much damage 30% of the time. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 09:01
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Somebody else has already done the numbers, math isn't my thing. And where on earth did you get 30% from? Melee skill is a fixed set of factors. If both an Agent and a Guardian have 10 melee skill, say, 5 strength, and a bronze sword, they both do the same damage. It is really very simple. Are you incapable of figuring this out for your self? -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 09:04
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My Guardian roughly 30% of the time did 500+ damage. Try playing the game to have your melee agent do 500+ damage 30% of the time. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 09:17
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I see speaking to you in logical and rational terms is pointless. You are a fool, there is no sense in arguing with you. Think whatever you will. Answer me this though... With the same stats, skill levels, and weapons, why would a Guardian do more damage? Both the Agent and the Guardian are capable of achieving the exact same numbers in physical stats and weapon skills... -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 09:23
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DeVlish is right. I've already typed reams on this. Look for the Guardian vs. Agent thread. Guardians are only better melee fighters if you are going to ignore magic entirely, and if you do that, you will die, period -- and even then they are only mildly better at melee. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 09:51
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Guardians can get melee skills higher cheaper. I completely ignore magic and the game is quite easy. Guardians aren't better at melee just because of QA and Melee. Having high Parry, Strength and Endurence help to. Also, it has a lot to do with how you play. Most people seem to have trouble playing the Guardian. I find it quite easy. The Guardians don't need a boost. People just need to figure out how to play them well. I have read the other topic. In tougher battles the Guardian can use items to allow them to do more damage and have higher HP. This gives them most of power that BLM would give them. I'm not saying that the Guardian is better. I'm just saying that he doesn't need boosting. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 09:56
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And you have done this on Torment? With out cheating, using a character editor, etc? Cause that's the only thing that matters. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 10:11
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Yes, unless you count healing myself when I don't feel like going to town. It doesn't affect fighting or gameplay at all. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, May 27 2006 10:47
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I forget, was the Agent also going to be able to match the Guardian in Strength (for damage and for carrying armor and weapons) and Endurance? Those are very significant factors if you want to be a slugger. Having said that, I concede that Augmentation and high spell strength makes Endurance pretty much irrelevant, and I did buy the original argument that by pushing combat skills while keeping enough magic to enjoy the buffs, an Agent could slug it out as well as a Guardian. That's probably a problem, but I wonder. Ideally, if the Agent is using her magic strength to boost her minor suit of combat, then the Guardian should be able to compensate with some decent creations. But that's a lot harder to quantify, since there's no easy way to weigh a pair of Vlish against 3 points of Melee Weapons. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |