Poll for Atheists and Agnostics...

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AuthorTopic: Poll for Atheists and Agnostics...
Infiltrator
Member # 2669
Profile Homepage #50
I'd wager that physical evolution has not stopped, either. As our environment changes, so will we. It is only in the last 100 years or so that massive amounts of us began sitting for the most part of the day. I bet over time, our spines and butts will change to accomodate this.

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Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00
Agent
Member # 14
Profile #51
Personally, I think sharks are the pinnacle of evolution, not humans who have no fondness for their mother nature who created them. I mean, sharks have been the way they are for at least 65 million years with little to no change, and they're the best at what they do.

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Dragyn Bob

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here!"-The Divine Comedy
Posts: 1481 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 341
Profile #52
Ah, Rentboy has fallen itno the Lamark trap.

Whatever happens to us in our lives, our children will be no different becuase our genes remain fixed.
The Classic Case: If you chop the tail off a mouse, its children will still be born with tails. The gene in the mouse that gives it its tail cannot be removed, so will be passed on to its predecessors, giving them tails.

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"This stolen joke proves I have a sense of humour!"
"This tired old proverb proves I am profound"
"This hyperlink to someone who doesn't know me proves I am popular!"

Nothing like a bandwagon.

Except maybe irony.
Posts: 159 | Registered: Monday, December 3 2001 08:00
Triad Mage Banned Veteran
Member # 165
Profile Homepage #53
If propensity to lose one's tail is a desirable characteristic, though, that propensity will likely propogate itself until most mice lose their tails at birth.

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desperance -- je me souviens
arena -- et je me souviens de vous
Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 1359
Profile #54
quote:
Originally posted by y0d1n2a3:
Just curious...

Since I am a Christian myself (despite the fact that I have relatively "less faith" compared to my parents), I would like to say:

Why do you think religion in general (or Christianity in particular) is so bad? Besides, don't you want to go to heaven (assuming that you believe in heaven and hell :) )?

Personally, I respect your choice of not being a believer. You have the right to not belive in God. Besides, beliving in a religion doesn't necessarily mean that your mind has to be "fixed"-- for example, even some Christians partially believe in evolution (i.e. "God created the creatures on earth first, then they 'evolved'").

Since I find myself unable to believe in heaven or hell, your argument is null and void.

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~ §øСüm
©ÿªñ¡Ðë ~
Mission Ridge -- All Your Snow Are Belong to Us.
Posts: 1277 | Registered: Monday, June 24 2002 07:00
Warrior
Member # 341
Profile #55
Yes, but only if said propensity were a property of a genetic problem, and not purporting to be a product of the previous probe.

Do not be drawn in by Alec's honeyed alliteration, it contains only evil

[ Saturday, May 24, 2003 16:48: Message edited by: wychwenthal ]

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"This stolen joke proves I have a sense of humour!"
"This tired old proverb proves I am profound"
"This hyperlink to someone who doesn't know me proves I am popular!"

Nothing like a bandwagon.

Except maybe irony.
Posts: 159 | Registered: Monday, December 3 2001 08:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
Profile #56
Not all dinosaurs died out 65 millions years ago. Some survived, in the same way crocodiles were around then and are pretty much unchanged now.

Evolution doesn't happen constantly. First the genes have to be present, then the enviroment has to be changed for those genes to help their carriers survive, whilst those without die off.
Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #57
Um. "Not all dinosaurs died out"?

There don't seem to be any around any more, duh. Except if you mean the crocodiles or some lizard species, but these cannot be counted as real dinosaurs, can they?

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"And all should cry, Beware, Beware!
His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge
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"It is as if everyone had lost their sense
Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence
And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey.
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Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
Profile #58
Some survived past 65 million years ago

Some may now be birds, plenty died out 30-40 million years ago and we've lost a lot of species in the past ten thousand years because they've been hunted to extinction. Having said that, I'm not sure what the technical definition of a dinosaur is.

I have a few problems with evolution, but it's a much more solid theory than suggesting that the earth is only 6000 years old and evidence to the contrary was planted by God as a test.
Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 14
Profile #59
Well, although some may have lived past the Cretaceous, I don't think birds can qualify as dinosaurs. Though they may be descended from them, they have evolved to a different level, and are thus their own thing, and no longer dinosaurs.

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Dragyn Bob

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here!"-The Divine Comedy
Posts: 1481 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00
Triad Mage Banned Veteran
Member # 165
Profile Homepage #60
Birds are no more dinosaurs than we are amoebae.

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desperance -- je me souviens
arena -- et je me souviens de vous
Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
Profile #61
In fact, birds aren't really descended from what we would recognise as dinosaurs. The split would have come well before the time of Tyrannosaurus and co. If I had to make an utterly uniformed guess, I'd say the split came in the Triassic, which makes birds as closely related to dinosaurs as you or I.
Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 48
Profile #62
I will attempt to cool down the evolution debate that is going on here, if you don't mind hearing from another perspective :)

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As far as I know, every evidence that can be used to support the theory of evolution also apply to creationism (if you believe in a God).

For example, from the anatamical point of view, we can say that the arms of humans contain the same general structure as bats' wings or elephants' huge legs.

If you believe in evolution, you can say that this evidence supports the idea of "common ancestor." From creationism's point of view, you can also say that they were created by the same God.

And besides, there are still some unanswered question about evolution:

1. Cloning life can be treated as a type of evolution (in this case, artificial selection). But the current case is: we can clone a whole life, but never create them from nothing. Besides, even "clones" created through current cloning methods aren't "exact" clones (some parts of the clone come from the "surrogate mother"). In addition, clones age faster.

2. We can make artificial organs, but not construct one that perfectly replaces the natural ones. Likewise, can we "create" a completely new organism by putting pieces of DNA together? No. :D

3. We can use biotechnology to modify the genetic code of an organism to make it more favorable for humans, but we cannot restore already-extinct species back to the environment using the DNA information we have available.

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Back on topic:

I respect the choice of anyone who does not believe in God. But there are some benefits you can get from believing in God that people rarely talk about. I'll list a few of them here:

1. While believing in God doesn't mean that you will never encounter any kind of setback in life, God can give you the strength to endure any problem you are currently facing.

2. Have you ever been "haunted" by some kind of evil spirit? Don't you feel strange that believers are immune to them?

3. God still cares about you even if you occasionally forget to pray, go to church, read the Bible, etc.

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"Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing.-Luke 23:34
Posts: 329 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2669
Profile Homepage #63
About Evolution #s 1-3:
YET. It's a fairly new science. Give it time.

About God:
1. I'll concede that one. If God is what you need, go for it.
2. One word: exorcism. Still performed to this day.
3. That's nice.

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Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00
Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
Profile Homepage #64
1. Cloning is not a form of evolution.
2. So what? There is more to life than DNA, and more to evolution than combining DNA.
3. See 2

Oh, and I've known Christians who have been (they claim) haunted. Don't you feel strange that people who don't believe in the paranormal are immune to them? :P

Edit: About disproving Creationism. I can't. But you can't prove that dogs are not alien spies from Venus, preparing for an invasion. If you disprove one, I'll disprove the other for you.

[ Sunday, May 25, 2003 12:10: Message edited by: Khoth ]

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Grammar wenches beware:
This is the house that the malt that the rat that the cat that the dog that the cow that the maiden that the man that the priest that the cock that the farmer kept waked married kissed milked tossed worried killed ate lay in.

My Website
desperance.net - Leave your sanity at the door
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #65
Rent Boy, I beg to differ. Noone should be ridiculed for what s/he believes or does not believe in.

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Polaris
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2669
Profile Homepage #66
I honestly did not intend to ridicule anyone's religion.

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Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 48
Profile #67
quote:
Originally posted by Khoth:
About disproving Creationism. I can't. But you can't prove that dogs are not alien spies from Venus, preparing for an invasion. If you disprove one, I'll disprove the other for you.
I don't mean to "disprove evolution" or anything. My point is: you can intepret the "evolution-supporting" data available in a wide variety of ways, including putting them into creationism's context.

As for cloning and DNA, my point was: Theoratically, "same DNA" = "identical individual" and "Change DNA" = "modify organism." which is at least "similar" :) to evolution.

As for proving dogs are NOT alien spies, I can't. But some of the data we have support the theory (if you want to word it this way :D ) that they're not:

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1. From evolution's point of view: the current data shows that evolution only occurred on earth. Other planets: unknown.

2. From Christianity's point of view: the Bible has no records of life in any place other than earth.

3. Even if they are alien spies, there are no signs of life left on venus. :D
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(Okay, stop the madness :P )

<Andy does a reality check and finds out that preaching his religion on the Spiderweb message board won't work, at least for now.>

(EDIT: Request granted. :) )

[ Sunday, May 25, 2003 14:41: Message edited by: y0d1n2a3 ]

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"Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing.-Luke 23:34
Posts: 329 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 1169
Profile #68
I think your reality check would be better spent realizing that the unbelievers of the boards do not want to be prayed for and will be very irritated if you continue to try and preach your religion at them. I get enough of that at school. If I wanted my soul to be saved, I'd save it myself. Since I don't believe in souls, or God, or organized religion, or prayer, please don't attempt to make me. I don't force Atheism on you; please don't force religion on me.

On second thought, go ahead and pray for us if you want to. Just don't tell us about it.

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"Man hands down misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, and don't have any kids yourself."--Philip Larkin, "This Be the Verse"

Fear the wrath of the Grammar Wench, lest ye be cut down by the Glistening Scythe.
Posts: 1150 | Registered: Friday, May 17 2002 07:00
Triad Mage Banned Veteran
Member # 165
Profile Homepage #69
People assume I'm an atheist/agnostic/whatever all the time because I don't feel like proselytizing. :P
[And people assume I'm a right-wing lunatic when they see the fact that I'm a big person and I am wearing a cross; they assume big = dumb and Christian = fundie, so there you are. Of course, once I open my mouth, this all changes. Or so I hope.]

As for evolution, the biggest fallacy people come to relating evolution is stating that it has a goal, it has a direction, or it is doing something or another on principle. This is false; evolution is a science as much as quantum physics and chemistry; it is an impersonal force, and just is and does. It is sad that this is an alien concept to so many; natron does not react flamboyantly with water because it has ambitions or goals. The sun does not give off light because it has a quota. Similarly, evolution does not bring about different species because it's working towards something.

And that's about it, really.

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desperance -- je me souviens
arena -- et je me souviens de vous
Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #70
quote:
As for cloning and DNA, my point was: Theoratically, "same DNA" = "identical individual" and "Change DNA" = "modify organism." which is at least "similar" :) to evolution.
Holding the opinion that species arose by evolution doesn't mean that one has to believe genetics are responsible for everything, you know. That would just be silly.

Your argument about the difficulties involved in abiogenesis has some validity. One hypothesis that has gained credibility is that life originally developed from RNA, which unlike DNA is capable of replicating itself without the need for complex proteins.

Of course, just because we can't do something, doesn't mean it can't happen. We haven't developed working nanotechnology yet either, but if complex structures existing on a molecular scale were theoretically impossible we wouldn't be here.

As far as your point on the "benefits" of religion goes, I'm surprised that sincere believers can find the idea of Pascal's wager anything other than morally abhorrent. I intend no offence: I certainly don't think you believe in your religion because you're expecting to gain some benefit by doing so. I just don't think that anyone else does either.

Oh, and in answer to your question, as far as I know I am not being and have never been haunted by evil spirits.

[ Sunday, May 25, 2003 19:50: Message edited by: I See No Gravitas Here ]

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I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
Profile Homepage #71
quote:
Originally posted by y0d1n2a3:
As for cloning and DNA, my point was: Theoratically, "same DNA" = "identical individual" and "Change DNA" = "modify organism." which is at least "similar" :) to evolution.

As for proving dogs are NOT alien spies, I can't. But some of the data we have support the theory (if you want to word it this way :D ) that they're not:

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1. From evolution's point of view: the current data shows that evolution only occurred on earth. Other planets: unknown.

2. From Christianity's point of view: the Bible has no records of life in any place other than earth.

3. Even if they are alien spies, there are no signs of life left on venus. :D
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(Okay, stop the madness :P )

Evolution was quicker on Venus, and they live under the surface where we can't see them. And they edited themselves out of the Bible.

My point is that I'm not going to manage to convince you that Creationism is false, because an all-powerful god allows too much wiggle room for letting things be possible, just like my alien technology lets the dogs be spies whatever evidence you might come up with. Just ask yourself why you believe one and not the other.

Evolution, on the other hand, could be disproved by finding a fossilised human skeleton in Jurassic rock. Falsifiability is what makes evolution a science and creationism not.

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Grammar wenches beware:
This is the house that the malt that the rat that the cat that the dog that the cow that the maiden that the man that the priest that the cock that the farmer kept waked married kissed milked tossed worried killed ate lay in.

My Website
desperance.net - Leave your sanity at the door
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 14
Profile #72
As for the cloning argument, DNA is not all that makes a person. In a recent study, it was shown that there are not enough genes in the human genome to predetermine a person, thus solving the argument nature vs. nurture. Unless you can expose a 'clone' to the exact same stimuli in its life as the original experienced, you'll never have a perfect clone.

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Dragyn Bob

"Abandon all hope, ye who enter here!"-The Divine Comedy
Posts: 1481 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
Profile #73
One question: natron=sodium?
Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #74
And hey, you could prove the atom theory false, if you really wanted to.

(Actually, I think we can see the atom now, making that a rather futile effort. Still, if you can bring yourself to believe in creationism, nothing that doesn't make sense is too unrealistic.)

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We're all amazed but not amused
By all the things that you said you'd do.
You're much concerned but not involved by
Decisions that are made by you
But we are sick and tired of hearing your song,
Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong,
'Cause if you really want to hear our views,
You haven't done nothin'.

Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00

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