Humans Only
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 14:34
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We've been discusing lots of different political and economic theories lately. Most such theories operate under a large set of assumptions, most of them having to do with human nature. So, humans: naturally good or naturally evil? Granted, the answers will probably amount to little more than opinions, but I am curious. What do you think of our species? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 14:49
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For reference, here is the last time that this sort of discussion was attempted, by a younger, more noobish me. Predictably, I got smited by TM. So, to prove the cyclic nature of history, I feel that I must continue the smiting. Humans are naturally human. Variability is the only inherent feature of our nature. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 14:56
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 -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 15:00
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By E.T. quote:They will lead to opinions. If you ignore canonical references or your view of the ideal human, you have nothing relevant to compare with. Apes? Larva? Aliens from Mars? Kumquats? Heh. Love to talk, but I've spent all day in the lab. EDIT: Thuryl, that was freaky. Quick, are there any kumquats in that picture? -------------------- Kumquats. Why kumquats? [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 15:01: Message edited by: Dintiradan ] Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 15:08
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quote:I would say neither and both. Part of being human is a give and take to survive. There's a competitive, individual gain aspect which tends to lead people to do evil. However, there's also a giving communal society building aspect that tends to make people do good. Not saying these things fit so nicely in a box as one could find gray areas or counter examples. However, without the individualistic aspect, we would not have had the fittest breeding as per natural selection. However, without the communal aspects, we would not have a society and likely still be a bunch of hairless apes in the plains of Africa. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 15:46
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Generally it sucks, but there are individual highs and lows. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 16:24
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quote:Both. The ratio differs from person to person and is greatly influenced by environment and upbringing, but it is never 0 or infinity. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 16:53
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The answer, of course, is yes. Hmm... as a student of Biblical Theology, I am required by my professors and peers alike to blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah. However, in light of the metaphysical implications of blah blah blah blah blah, one can assume that man is blah blah blah. Or, I can take this the practical way. Define your terms. Being a Christian, I define evil as being anything contrary to the will of God, with good being defined by God's perfection. Therefore, mankind cannot be inherently good, nor evil. The nature of an individual man may tend toward one or the other (most times, I believe, the latter), but one cannot fairly classify a whole race as good or evil (note the modifier "fairly"). EDIT: I would think of a good punchline only after I hit the post button. -------------------- The Silent Assassin just drove off with several dozens of gallons of fushia paint and a gas-fueled high pressure water pump and nozzle system. I have a vague suspicion that I suddenly know what all of those pictures of City Hall were for... [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 16:56: Message edited by: Lenar Labs ] -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 17:01
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I'd like to disagree with the majority and say we are all evil bastards by nature. We inherently act in our own self-interest, disregarding others. What 'good' we do, we do because it benefits us in some way. [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 17:02: Message edited by: Lt. Sullust ] -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 17:03
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I believe that humans are born with some leanings towards either good or evil, but 92 times out of 100, it depends on how they're raised. EDIT: Sullest has a point, though. Most humans today are motivated by a 'what's in it for me' factor. [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 17:05: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 17:04
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quote:How on earth are you disagreeing with me, you evil bastard? -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 17:25
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Humans are naturally lazy. Since it requires less energy to do "evil" than to do "good" most people tend to do what is generally considered evil. Case in point TM who could edit his thoughts, but prefers to use his energy to find ways around the autocensor. Maybe that's not a good example since he is expending unnecessary energy. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 17:27
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quote:I purposely didn't do this because I wanted to see a variety of definitions rather than have the whole discussion hinge on me like it always does. If you'd rather have it that way, though, my ego would be pleased to oblige. Good or evil was a stupid question. The terms are relative. I'll just talk about human nature in general. Don't worry, you should still be able to find some way to disagree with me. Humans are born knowing only self-interest. Children will lie, cheat and steal until they are programed to know that these things are wrong. Once they realize that punishment is possible, they continue to seek their own self-interest by following society's rules to avoid it. Eventually, they will have the chance to be compassionate. Compassion is motivated by self-interest as well. By doing something to benefit society, you benefit yourself indirectly, and then there's the ego boost, my favorite. Being compassionate can give you many things: loyalty, respect, money... love even? Everyone wants to be loved. I'm sure at this point you can't wait to point out a famous campassionate person who gave up everything to help others. Such people are out there, but they are the exception, not the rule. Such people must see much suffering in the world before they can overcome their human nature. If self-interest is defined as evil and compassion as good, I would say people are born evil and most remain so their entire life. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 18:02
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Humans - Naturally good at reducing all things into quizzes. Your question on good v evil can be explained thorough this quiz. You can post results below, but be prepared. This quiz is of 100 questions. I am a guardian. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7624
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 18:10
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Has anyone here ever read Matt Ridley's "Origins of Virtue" ? Ridley's a biologist...I don't agree with everything he has to say but he basically asserts that cooperation is a great survival strategy. So, as far as humans go, cooperation is the essence of "good," while selfishness is the essence of "evil." The reason is that we humans are social animals, and although we often seek personal advantage, the vast part of our lives/societies/personalities are based on cooperation. You get more out of helping your neighbor (gratitude, status, reciprocation) than you do out of hurting him (hatred, fistfights, prison). Even if you personally profit, helping others is basically good, isn't it? By these lights, I'd argue that most humans are basically good, since we live in huge cooperative societies. It's just more profitable. ps: i luv u all Posts: 10 | Registered: Wednesday, November 1 2006 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 18:15
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You scored as Guardian. Congratulations. You are a Guardian. You believe that the purpose of the strong is to protect the weak. You love all life and dislike seeing someone not realize that it is precious. You are more than likely a Mainstream religion. Combine this and your second result to get your answer. Guardian 95% Pacifist 55% Destroyer 55% Citizen 55% Altruist 45% Hedonist 40% Conqueror 35% Narcissist 30% Loner 25% Miscreant 20% Hmm. Close. I do hold to pacifist ideals quite strongly, but do not hesitate to bust skulls should the situation demand it. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3513
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 18:16
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quote:"Good" and "evil" are cultural constructs based upon emotion and custom rather than logic. What the rest of you humans are incapable of understanding is that all morality is relative. The Logos is the only absolute. -------------------- Nobody appreciates me. It's all "Igor! Fetch some wine!" "Igor! Clean up this experiment!" or "Igor! Bury this in the garden, we're leaving town in 10 minutes!" —Alorael, who tried to become a deivore once. The priest gave him a funny look after the third wafer. Posts: 301 | Registered: Thursday, October 2 2003 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 18:19
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You are now an open book. And it seems your judgements are fairly accurate. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 18:24
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I am a Citizen! But Pacifist and Guardian follow closely. -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 18:25
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Who is an open book? Whose judgments? I scored freakishly high on the Guardian scale... Is that good or bad? People who know me best compare me to a knight of some sort. No kidding. I am cocky, darn near arrogant in dangerous situations. And the whole kilt thing is considered pretty much by everybody as asking for trouble, my way of slapping somebody's face with a gauntlet. I will bravely go tilting windmills should I need to. No regrets. Edit. I just noticed, the destroyer is up there quite a ways... How is one both a pacifist and a destroyer? Now I have questions. I am either conflicted somehow or that test is faulty. Flawed. Hmm. [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 18:28: Message edited by: Delicious Vlish ] -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 18:30
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quote:Your definitions start to make me weep. I suggest you go and buy a lexicon. -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1934
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 18:56
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Seeing as how I agree with the general consensus, here are my results: Pacifist 80% Citizen 70% Loner 70% Guardian 60% Conqueror 30% Miscreant 25% Hedonist 20% Altruist 15% Narcissist 15% Destroyer 15% People are generally self-serving. That's too bad. -------------------- You acquire an item: Radio Free Foil Posts: 1169 | Registered: Monday, September 23 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 19:02
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I am a Citizen Guardian. 75% and 65%, respectively. I suppose that means that I use the laws to protect, or something like that. Self-interest is not necessarily evil. All creatures have some form of self-interest. Most people call it "motivation". Self-interest at the expense of other beings, on the other hand, is evil. -------------------- The Silent Assassin has recently discovered the wonderful use of soda cans as shrapnel. Right now, he's out back under the blast shield creating what he hopes to be the next great work of garbage art. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 19:19
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quote:Now in your case that one is easy to answer. As a guardian of light you are sworn to protect all that is beautiful and vulnerable, and so you go and face all hell and demons alone, if need be. And if Grah-Hoth roars, you roar even louder and slightly wrinkle your nose, because you don't like the stink. -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 19:22
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quote:Is it wrong that what I read made me laugh just a little? Seriously, I think the test has flaws. I got two exact scores for two polar traits. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |