Humans Only
Pages
| Author | Topic: Humans Only |
|---|---|
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 21:59
Profile
Alec, please teach me more. I was beginning to be sucked into the vortex of Tullyspeak and was losing my senses. I sit here typing wondering if I should be beating my dog instead. Your words have hauled me back from the edge. I now think there may be error in Tulogic, but I can not find it. His method is, is , is so seductive. It has power. I want him to be right so that I can share his philosophy of moral righteousness and megalomania. I want you to be right so I can reject his philosophy of immorality and return to the path from which I have strayed. Please. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:01
Profile
Homepage
quote:This is factually not true. Non-domestic animals do save the lives of humans from time to time. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:08
Profile
Homepage
Prove it Mr. Factually-True. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
The Establishment
Member # 6
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:11
Profile
quote:No, it doesn't. We have higher cognitive functions to comprehend these things and as such it is our duty to save an animal from pain. No different than a surgeon knowing how to mend a wound. It does not make us superior or give us a right to harm them. For the surgeon example, she has the mental capacity to fix otherwise lethal wounds. By virtue of her medical training, the surgeon may have power over your life, but at the same time her superior training does not give her the right to cause harm to you. quote:Your ignorance on this subject is astounding. [ Saturday, November 04, 2006 22:50: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:12
Profile
quote:This is an example of how due diligence can save some embarrassment. If Tully had done a simple google search, he would have seen this. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:16
Profile
Homepage
quote: quote:I hate repeating myself. Salmon: I'm not impressed. Those humans were probably feeding the dolphins and thus the dolphins were merely protecting a newfound source of food. I won't deny that dolphins are sentient, and enjoy entertainment. They could also have been protecting a source of entertainment. Then there is always the third possibility that they were protecting themselves because they felt threatened by the shark, and the human just happened to be there. [ Saturday, November 04, 2006 22:20: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 1934
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:20
Profile
Homepage
Zing! To answer the original question, some humans are naturally stupid. :Edit: All you ever do is repeat yourself. Try backing some of that up. [ Saturday, November 04, 2006 22:25: Message edited by: Andraste ] -------------------- You acquire an item: Radio Free Foil Posts: 1169 | Registered: Monday, September 23 2002 07:00 |
|
The Establishment
Member # 6
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:20
Profile
Yes, and I'm saying, by your warped logic, that a surgeon is superior and therefore her patient's pain is insignificant. [ Saturday, November 04, 2006 22:24: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:27
Profile
quote: -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
The Establishment
Member # 6
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:28
Profile
Now, now, Salmon, no need to post such vulgar articles. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:28
Profile
Homepage
The article does say they were playing with the dolphins, and sharks are dangerous, so the other two possibilities are proven. That good enough? Surgeon: The surgeon does have the right no not heal someone. That aside, the person's pain is not insignificant because the person will ask for help. A dog on the other hand would rather hide under a porch and die instead of seeking comfort. Edit: Ooo, my very first TM insult. Should I be insulted, honored, or laughing hysterically? Guess which one I'm doing. [ Saturday, November 04, 2006 22:30: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:32
Profile
Homepage
quote: quote: quote:wtf -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 1934
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:32
Profile
Homepage
*sigh* I wish I could send a wedgie through an Ethernet cable. A girl can dream. -------------------- You acquire an item: Radio Free Foil Posts: 1169 | Registered: Monday, September 23 2002 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2476
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:32
Profile
quote:I'm not so sure that he didn't. He defines success as 'the ability to exert one's will over others' and states that this leads to power, which can only be understood as power over others in this context. He calls those 'strong', who are successful as he defines success. It would follow that whoever is not striving for dominance has to be considered 'weak'. quote:This needs an explanation. Here you state that a human can make an animal feel pain, even suffering. Yet this pain is insignifanct in your eyes. Why? -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:33
Profile
quote:Here is a classic attempt at misleading the public. Most dogs will in fact seek out attention when injured. However, if the dog is mistreated on a regular basis, it will likely retreat and hide its injury from its malicious owner. Tully's experience with dogs seems to bear witness to his level of compassion. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 1934
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:36
Profile
Homepage
quote:A dog seeking help when hurt? I think that's what a human would do. Interesting. -------------------- You acquire an item: Radio Free Foil Posts: 1169 | Registered: Monday, September 23 2002 07:00 |
|
The Establishment
Member # 6
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:42
Profile
quote:No, it doesn't. I want you to show me proof of what the dolphins were thinking before it's proven. You have a hypothesis with a smidge of evidence, no proof. quote:No, the surgeon is obligated to heal her patient if she is able. She is obligated by her training and capacity as a surgeon to do so. A human has a similar obligation to an animal in suffering. Babies can't ask for help, so their pain is insignificant? I don't want to hear about how one day they will be able to. At this moment in time, that baby's suffering is not worthy of being dealt with. As for the dog, once again your ignorance is astounding. By the same token, a baby would rather just lay in its crib and die instead of seeking comfort. If you don't like baby example, just insert a mentally handicapped person. Oh wait, you see them no better than animals... -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2476
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 22:57
Profile
quote:And so we are on a straight road to discussing the value of life, no wait..to discussing whose life has a value. Dear Tully, once you've eliminated all the weaklings and all that other insignificant crap of animal and plant population, feel welcome to the scorched earth and enjoy. -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
|
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 23:13
Profile
quote:Always check your facts before you make an argument based on what you think they may be. If Tullegolar had been aware of medical ethics, he would be aware that doctors have no such right, and indeed any reasonable physician would reject out of hand the 'right' to not heal someone in need as grotesque and immoral. quote:Ouch, generalizations! Never base an argument on these bad boys, readers: Tullegolar poses a world in which all animals behave like certain cats when they die. This is obviously not the case, as anyone who has had a dog die could tell you. The lesson here? Avoid making arguments from areas of which you are ignorant; you will always make an ass of yourself. Certainly never make things up to prove a point; if you have to do so, it's time to reassess the validity of that point. Philosophy isn't a game; you don't score points for winning. [ Saturday, November 04, 2006 23:18: Message edited by: The Worst Man Ever ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
|
Apprentice
Member # 3428
|
written Saturday, November 4 2006 23:18
Profile
Homepage
Human beings are neither inherently good, or evil [like any sentient being, or any living being for that matter.] "Good and Evil" are also neither inherently good or evil, based on the fact that morals [though some people will argue against it], arise from: the personal psychology of the beings involved, the dual biological imperatives of self preservation and societal self sacrifice [the former is an older, intensely powerful, intensely influential mechanism, while the latter is newer, and mostly present in more "Advanced" organisms.], interlinking of "self-awareness" spheres through empathy, and willpower. Good and evil are the products of evolving consciousness, the interplay of awareness, self-awareness, and empathy [the awareness of other's self awareness.] While they can't be universalized, [due to foreseeable differences in the psychology of various conceivable sentient species], there is a common theme. "Evil" is the perception of ill-will where awareness and self awareness collide, where one's awareness allows for the self projection of another's suffering, in short where your awareness absorbs another through empathy and decides, "I wouldn't want that happening to me." "Good" is the inverse process. Please note that while this alone seem to account for all the morals and particular tradition has, it falls together when you bring the societies taboos, traditions, problems, and worries into the picture. Oh yes, in response to the statement that animals don't know "good an evil." Some of them are weakly sentient [possessing of both awareness and self-awareness], and as such most likely have their own "morals." Conciousness isn't a gift, or an anomaly, its a process, it appears over time, building in layers. We are what we are, thanks to the lizards and the ancient omniverous mammals, and the greater primates that came before us. For better or worse, and anything that comes after us will be what they are because of us in like turn, for better or worse. [ Saturday, November 04, 2006 23:23: Message edited by: Ezrah, Kitty of Wonder. ] -------------------- HIHI!!!! *hugs indescriminantly* take that, FEEL THE LOVE!!!! Posts: 47 | Registered: Wednesday, September 3 2003 07:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
|
written Sunday, November 5 2006 01:02
Profile
quote:Dolphins have been documented for centuries with saving the lives of humans at sea. Of course there is no documentation about any cases where they pushed people away from land and they drowned. There was the case a few years ago at the zoo where a small child fell into the gorilla exhibit and was rescued by a mother gorilla and brought to safety. There was a long debate over why the gorilla acted that way. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
|
written Sunday, November 5 2006 11:34
Profile
Homepage
Wow... disappear for a day, and I miss all the fun. Lego, your arguments are getting increasingly desperate, and I'm looking forward to seeing you storm angrily from the topic claiming "mission accomplished". Until then, all I can do without screaming is second the arguments used against you. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
|
Law Bringer
Member # 335
|
written Sunday, November 5 2006 11:43
Profile
Homepage
Since Tullegolar is ignorant of some of the basic premises of our arguments and is apparently willfully so, given that he very loudly ignores all evidence that contradicts his views, this is a futile "debate" that serves only to let people enjoy virtual shouting matches. —Alorael, who supposes that claiming human sapience obligates humans to adhere to higher moral standards is, in Tully's mind, worthless. Of course, according to Tully's view of the world he should be dead and so should just about everyone else here. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 2820
|
written Sunday, November 5 2006 13:08
Profile
It'd certainly be interesting to see how his views would change if he fell to the bottom of the social and economic ladder due to some grievous error of judgment. Of course after that, as paternalistic and benevolent people, we would wish him good fortune. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 32
|
written Sunday, November 5 2006 15:06
Profile
As far as superiority goes, I'd have much more respect for an animal that saved a human, than a human saving an animal. The only reason a human does it is to get out of feeling guilty later. You can call it empathy if you like... So either animals do it for the same reason, in which case we are certainly not superior. Or they do it out of instinct, which makes them superior. -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |