Regrettable But

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AuthorTopic: Regrettable But
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #150
Kelandon only voted the way he wanted to with the votes that were entrusted to him by other voters. He did nothing wrong...

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Lt. Sullust
Cogito Ergo Sum
Polaris
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #151
I'd be very surprised to learn that our candidate-proxy system really is used in electing governments anywhere. I think the usual practice is that if a candidate withdraws, all votes for them are simply wasted. Where there are multiple rounds of voting, as in party leadership conventions or papal elections, a candidate who withdraws after one round often endorses another candidate. But this is just a matter of asking their supporters to vote a certain way in the next round. These supporters often obey out of respect for their original choice, but are not bound to do so.

The good points of the system we used are that nobody's vote is 'wasted', and the election ends after only one round. The drawback we have found is that it gives more power than we might have intended to losing candidates. (In fact, more power than the winner will ever wield as moderator, though only for a brief time.) If I voted for Kelandon, I didn't thereby declare that I couldn't stomach Alec at any price; and yet Kelandon was free to transfer my vote in order to eliminate Alec. Again, I'm not blaming Kelandon in the slightest, but in retrospect I'm uncomfortable with what he did, and feel that it shouldn't have been legal (as I entirely concede it actually was).

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #152
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

I'd be very surprised to learn that our candidate-proxy system really is used in electing governments anywhere.
*edit* Me too stupid to read entire post me quote!

Would you be surprised to learn that this is the system used by Democrats and Republicans at their conventions?

*obviously you're not surprised since you mention it! I'm leaving the last bit in because I better say something interesting or I'm going to be compared to pieces of the female anatomy by TM for being Exhibit A of how silly the community has become.*

Basically, the primary voters don't elect a "candidate," they elect delegates to the Party Convention. The people vying for the Party's nomination then settle into a mad set of smoke-filled back-room deals in which various possible positions are traded for delegates until a winner emerges. At least, that's what happens if no candidates have enough delegates for a "first round" ballot win (meaning over 50 percent).

I believe the last time this kind of chaos happened was in the 1972 nomination of George McGovern as the Democratic candidate for president. McGovern had a lead in the primaries going into the Convention, but not a decisive one. This led to a massive amount of back-room politicking in which the other candidates tried to agree on an alternative to give their votes to and sink McGovern's candidacy. They failed mostly because nobody could stand Hubert Humphrey as the alternative candidate. I can't say I blame them.

The Democratic party then decided that, in order to avoid this kind of political nonsense in the future, they would assign about 40 percent of the delegateships to senior party officials. There was very real and serious talk among Democrats that, if Howard Dean had won the primaries, they could use these special delegates to deny him the nomination. No such fun was to be had, unfortunately, because Kerry won.

I don't know if we'll see such contested candidacies again for some time, but who knows? Maybe Kel and Alec could run for President?

Z

[ Wednesday, July 20, 2005 06:13: Message edited by: Zorro ]

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #153
Are you sure this is different from what I said? There may be a lot of backroom dealing, but aren't the convention delegates all technically free to vote as they please in each round?

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Guardian
Member # 3521
Profile #154
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

And Stughal - Ash, Alec, and TM do not hate each other except when their scenarios are criticized. I definitely believe him when he says that he jumped in because Kel was being lambasted unfairly.
I've already conceded the point, Drakey. No need to keep dredging this up, although I respect your opinion.

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Stughalf

"Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita.
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00
One Thousand Slimy Things
Member # 66
Profile #155
Amusing thread. Battle.net class whine. I salute you sir!

Drakey, sometimes I wonder if you are some sort of evil mastermind for pulling of events like this. Well, however it is, yet another great drama! Bravo!

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Bending, but not in the way you might imagine.
Posts: 995 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #156
I didn't like the rules either, but no one objected when they were first proposed, so I didn't bother.

I do suggest that we never use these rules again, though.

EDIT: But those who think that my actions completely nullified the voters' choices would do well to look at the original vote count again, particularly the "Thuryl 213, Alec 110, Stughalf 106" part. Aran and Thuryl had gigantic margins from the rest. Alec and Stughalf were essentially neck-and-neck. This whole controversy arose from the secondary candidates (TM, Dolphin, and me) serving as a tiebreaker.

[ Wednesday, July 20, 2005 09:11: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Warrior
Member # 3870
Profile Homepage #157
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

I do suggest that we never use these rules again, though.
"Again" would be in six months? A year? What's the term of office of an elected mod?

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"Toleration is not the opposite of intoleration, but is the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms. The one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, and the other of granting it."
---Thomas Paine

Posts: 156 | Registered: Thursday, January 8 2004 08:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #158
It's semi-permanent, as well as semi-permeable.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
desperance.net - We're Everywhere
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You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #159
Maybe we should make these elections an annual thing. You know, just to get someone fresh in there every years as the boards progress.

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-ben4808

For those who love to spam:
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RIFQ
Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #160
IMAGE(http://www.kidspoint.org/images/resources/Audio/tmbg_no_sm.gif)

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Famous Last Words - A local pop-punk band
They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance
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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #161
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

I'd be very surprised to learn that our candidate-proxy system really is used in electing governments anywhere.
TM says: "Try all of Europe."

Which leads me to two observations: one, it seems like a good reason why we got it right instead of them, and two, you put two spaces after periods.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
desperance.net - We're Everywhere
====
You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #162
Mostly for fun, I wrote some rules for an election that I think would work better. Then I realized that these rules might actually be sort of good.

We could have this election beginning on August 1st, 2006, for the spot potentially filled by this current election.

Basically the idea of these rules is to be lenient with registrations, eliminate the less-than-serious candidates in one round, eliminate all but two others in a second round, and then have a majority decide in the final round. It would take about a month.

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As soon the administration agrees to hold an election (by unanimous consent of the admins), a topic will be made on the Moderator Board concerning this election. The administration will either choose an admin or ask for volunteers among the moderators of the board for which the election is being held (i.e. a General mod for an election in General) for an official to run the election, who will create all necessary topics and lock them when the time comes (which is why the official has to be an admin or moderator of the board). Conflicts of interest should be avoided, so that anyone who intends to stand in the election should not run the election.

Once an election official is chosen, the official will make a topic titled with the year of the election and the phrase "Election Rules," as in "2006 Election Rules." The topic post will include these rules, and it will be open for any questions about what the rules mean. Interpretation of the rules is at the descretion of the administration.

Next, the official will make a topic similarly titled, except with "Registration" instead of "Rules." In this topic, voters will post to declare themselves registered to vote. Any post in the registration topic will be considered a registration post. Any vote cast at any point during the registration period (lasting until the end of step 3 in the process outlined below) will also be considered a registration, and the official will post on the registration topic to indicate that a member has registered via e-mail.

Most campaigning should be done in the campaigning thread, similarly created by the official and titled except with "Campaigning" instead of "Rules," which will be open until the election is over. Hijacking other topics is forbidden, but obviously if the topic comes up naturally, then discussion is acceptable. Use good sense.

The election will consist of the following periods, each lasting one week:

1. Candidacy declaration. All candidates should post in the candidates thread, similarly titled except with "Candidates" instead of "Rules," including this exact sentence somewhere in the post: "I declare my candidacy for moderator of General." Any ambiguous declaration will be considered invalid, and the official will post to notify the member. At the end of this period, the official will lock the topic.

2. Primary voting. The official will create a new single-post locked topic, similarly titled except with "Candidates List" instead of "Rules," and list the registered candidates, giving their member numbers, current Publicly Displayed Names, and normal monikers (i.e. 8787 His Postly Cheese "HPC"). The official will also state his or her e-mail address and the total number of candidates. Each member gets as many votes as there are declared candidates, which can be distributed to any registered member on the boards, NOT just the declared candidates (write-ins are acceptable). These votes will be cast by secret ballot in the form of an e-mail to the official. A voter may change his or her votes during this round by means of another e-mail to the official, but candidates may not redistribute their own votes directly.

At the end of the week, the official will unlock the topic in order to post a list of the candidates who received enough votes to move on to the next stage. A candidate must receive at least as many votes as three times the number of candidates running (so if there are 30 candidates, a candidate must receive 90 votes in order to proceed).

3. General election. All candidates who passed the primary will be eligible in the general election, but write-ins will NOT be allowed. Votes will again be done in e-mail form to the election official, this time using a preferential system. The voter must give a first-choice candidate and then may rank as many of the remaining candidates as desired in order of preference (with no ties). Voters again may change their own votes at any time during this period.

Once the deadline has passed, the candidate with the lowest number of first-choice votes will be eliminated and the votes listing that candidate as a first choice will then go to their second choice. Once the votes are tallied again, the candidate with the lowest number of votes will be eliminated and the votes will go to their next choice, and so on until only two candidates remain.

The official will again unlock the "Candidates List" thread in order to post the two candidates who will move on to the next round. Also, the official will lock the "Registration" thread and no further registrations will be allowed.

4. Run-off. Each voter may cast a single vote for one of the two candidates, again by secret ballot in the form of an e-mail to the official. The candidate with the greater number of votes at the end of this period will win. Voters again may change their own votes at any time during this period.

The official will lock the "Campaigning" topic and create a new topic, similarly titled except with "Winner" and will state the winner of the run-off. At the administration's discretion, the winner will become a new moderator of the board for which the election was held.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #163
Re comments from Drakefyre/TM:

Huh? It certainly isn't used in the UK. And in places where they use proportional representation I don't see how it could even be applied. Where on Earth is it the case that a defeated candidate can directly transfer his or her vote total to another candidate, after the votes have been cast? This is the aspect of the system that I consider strange, and to which my post clearly referred, not the two-stage voting scheme (which is indeed used in many places).

I like putting two spaces after periods. It looks better. One space looks crowded and cheap. I don't remember now where I learned to do this, though. I suppose I could avoid double-spacing by using more colons: that would be worth it.

[ Wednesday, July 20, 2005 10:48: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #164
However, that would also be grammatically incorrect.

EDIT: Also, Kelandon, please see my post in Desp's "SW is For _ _ _ _" thread.

[ Wednesday, July 20, 2005 11:13: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ]

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The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community
The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database
Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database
BoE Webring - Self explanatory
Polaris - Free porn here
Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too)
Famous Last Words - A local pop-punk band
They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance
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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #165
Bah. It would be punctuation rather than grammar, and it would be perfectly sound punctuation. Like every right-thinking writer of English, I go by the Concise Oxford Dictionary's punctuation guide, which states: 'The main role of the colon is to separate main clauses when there is a step forward from the first to the second.' It then gives an exemplary but not exhaustive list of such steps forward: 'from introduction to main point, from general statement to example, from cause to effect, and from premiss to conclusion.'

If it's good enough for the Queen, it's good enough for me.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #166
I don't quite agree with those rules Kelandon; however, I do agree that revisions must be done. Drakey should do some thinking with the rest of the mods and add rules for elections to the CoC...

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Lt. Sullust
Cogito Ergo Sum
Polaris
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #167
I though it was grammatically correct to place two spaces after the end of a sentence and the colon, but one space after the comma and semicolon. But I could be wrong.

I regularly put two spaces between my sentences, but UBB may automatically shorten it to one.

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-ben4808

For those who love to spam:
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RIFQ
Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #168
Preach it, brother!

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #169
Two things about Kelandon's rules:

The vote cutoff for candidates advancing to the second round should be a function of the number of voters, not the number of candidates.

What about write-ins who don't want in?

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
desperance.net - We're Everywhere
====
You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #170
quote:
Originally written by Lt. Sullust:

I don't quite agree with those rules Kelandon
They're just an idea. We have a long time yet to revise before whenever the next elections will be.

And if anyone wants to write an alternative set of rules, feel free. These were just my ideas.

quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

The vote cutoff for candidates advancing to the second round should be a function of the number of voters, not the number of candidates.
Specifically how and why?

My goal was just to eliminate the non-serious and no-chance candidates in the first round.

quote:
What about write-ins who don't want in?
They should say so. I personally think that if the voters want to elect Alcritas or something, they ought to be able to. The result is explicitly up to the discretion of the admins anyway.

[ Wednesday, July 20, 2005 12:04: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #171
It should be a function of the number of voters because each voter has an average of one vote per candidate. If we set the limit at twice the number of voters is the required amount of votes, then it will mean that each voter on average gave at least two votes to the candidates who made it.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
desperance.net - We're Everywhere
====
You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #172
Elections don't belong in the Code of Conduct because, as far as Spiderweb is concerned, they have no legal standing. An election is only as official as Drakey and *i want it to be. This means that instead of campaigning to us you should campaign to them, but that's another issue entirely.

—Alorael, who believes double spacing at the end of a sentence (not after any period!) is a legacy of monospaced "fonts" on typewriters. When closed caption went out of favor and automatic spacing became the norm, single spacing also became the norm, at least in theory. In practice, there are staunch defenders of both spacings.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 455
Profile #173
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

Ah, Bootsy, where have you gone?
I had been contently minding my business at desp. Then this futile ramrodery spilled over there.

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Forgive them, for they are young and rich and white.
Posts: 265 | Registered: Saturday, December 29 2001 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #174
I've read over the recent Desperance posts a few times recently. It's interesting to see that some people post regularly on both sets of boards (and I guess some even keep up three, with Polaris). I like the idea of maintaining parallel identities, more or less, modulated into different keys.

In practice, though, I was pretty disappointed. My interest in puerile allusions to homosexual acts just does not seem to have the necessary stamina. The occasional reference, ha ha; a steady diet, post after post, year in year out ... it just boggles my mind that anyone could continue so consistently to find this amusing. So now I'm honestly curious, just what purpose Desperance serves, other than being a kind of drip tray for these boards here.

Is there really any actual life over there? If so, where?

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00

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