United States Conflict Avatars (Cont.)
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 08:59
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It would have been the blueprint for World War I if it weren't for the fact that the other powers of Europe didn't take either Japan or Russia seriously. They ignored the war, and just chalked up the Russian loss to Nicholas II's incompotence -- after all, to be beaten that badly by an Asian nation... Those that took careful notes at the various naval and land battles were ignored in Europe, as a European conflict naturally could never imitate one between Japan and Russia. History proved them wrong, of course. But that's another story entirely. -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 10:28
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Motrax, I would guess there isn't a single member of the 'far left' here who doesn't have friends with political views similar to yours. The disagreement with Dave tends to be mostly because he doesn't put things tactfully. Some criticisms made of him are just spoiling for a fight, but you can't say that every attack on him has been utterly unjustified. That's all by the by, because this topic has been a chronicle of American military adventures and you were vilified for moronic and malicious spamming. Anything else you see in it is your own bias. As I understand it, sales of metal to Japan stopped after Pearl Harbour, not before. Japan's reason for attacking was America's opposition to it ceasing the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) for the rubber there. Not dropping the bomb would have caused a coup? Considering the Army had been declaring war of its own accord for 15 years, I don't think that was a major issue. As to whether dropping the bomb saved lives, nobody can be sure, especially since the Americans have always stood by lower casualty figures than the Japanese estimates. What is certain is that if it hadn't been dropped, Hokkaido would have fallen to the Soviets. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 11:16
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I'll give you the fact that once Japan (who, mind you, I'm not going to defend) was starting, war was needed. But why were we giving them materials to make weapons, anyway? (No really, I'm asking you this. And IIRC, you only discussed Chinese history with me starting with Mao. And you didn't mention Japan once.) And Rentboy is right- we didn't use the bombs to end the war, we used them to intimidate the Bolshevists. Truman's generals were telling him that Japan was defeated. We had already destroyed their industrial capacity. Even if the emperor wanted to fight as you say, he couldn't have. Japan was already defeated before we dropped the bomb. Churchill, Eisenhower (a general at the time), the Secretary of State, and a fair number of the creators of the bomb were all for dropping the bomb on Japan to make an example to the Soviets, and they all made these statements in no explicit terms. The United States was well aware of Soviet expansionism from Yalta. And besides, even if you can state that the US was justified in bombing once, how can you say that they were justified in bombing twice? -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 12:49
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I have talked to Japanese who say that the bombs did save their country from even greater destruction. They were given a chance to surrender between bombings and got locked in internal arguments for too long, and the second bomb broke the deadlock. I don't know if the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were right or wrong, and historians have argued it endlessly as well. I would like to point out that the occupation of Japan was perhaps the only time America has occupied a foreign country after defeating it in war and had a good outcome. It may have been for the wrong reasons, but America did bring about a more democratic government and a reformed economic system that helped Japan reach the point it's at today. There's a reason they have not had any constitutional amendments, and it's not just lack of precedent. —Alorael, who has just one more thing to point out. Motrax is still gone. Gone is actually King Micah, or more recently Ikari Gendo. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 14:21
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Alorael: Germany, Austria, Italy...bad outcomes, all? And out of curiosity, what's the official status of Motrax? Banned, temp. banned, MIA, ...? If i'm being nosy, ignore me. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 16:26
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Way too many posts to read them all, so I'll just respond to TM, then most likely leave. I came back thinking it was the first avatar topic, which I was going to reread, and seeing the maps I assumed it was the right one. TM, I know my history. Please stop assuming that just because I don't agree with you I am mentally retarded or that I don't know what I'm talking about. Maybe I am ashamed a bit of my history; I know we are, and were, not saints. But I also know that we are, and were, not demons, as you seem to be trying to prove. As for the next part, that is 90% wrong. My hint about what about it is right is that it's in the second sentence of the second paragraph. TM, just because you appear to be devoid of emotion, on Spiderweb at least, doesn't mean that we all are. As ef (I think it was her, anyway) said, we all have our breaking point; when you push someone to that point, as you did with Motrax, you really can't blame him for what follows. Apparently that topic pissed him off more than it does with me, and therefore you should just be happy he was able to stop himself before getting really offensive and just leave. And I already told you, to leave would be to back down and admit defeat, which, unfortunately, I will not allow myself to do. I wish I could. Alright then, "RoR, pwease pwetty pwease don't assume, cuz TM says it makes an ass out of u and me." Which is true, actually. I'm sure I'm guilty of it myself, so I'll drop it. And what if he's "flooding the boards with crap" because he's "feeling down" (an understatement if I ever saw one)? I'm glad at least some people here can feel pity. And once again, don't assume that just because you are able to emotionally unattach yourself at will, everyone else can, and does, too. A man without emotions is simply a robot. EDIT: Temporarily banned, I believe, Rentboy. [ Tuesday, July 08, 2003 16:28: Message edited by: Sir David ] -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 18:39
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quote:Where did you get the impression that I'm posting this for your good and nobody else's? You may know your history. Others do not. And for those that do, it would be a good reminder on in an appropriate time. I'm posting history. If you disagree with my facts or the interpretation, then post constructively like King Micah, rather than run around helplessly and whine like a puppy that's been swatted violently by a rolled-up intellectual newspaper. You'll be alot more popular if you do. quote:I'm glad to hear you have an opinion- no surprise there. Please back it. My resource is a piece of evidenced used on a FRE from the AP US exam 2 years ago, what's yours? quote:STOP. Are you really this naïve? I can't blame Motrax for flooding a topic discussing American history and its various interpretations, because history is inflamatory, and he's too emotionally paralyzed to offer a suitable counter-argument? I can't blame Motrax for refusing to argue sensibly, instead resorting to flooding the topic with more than a page of useless rubbish that nobody in their right mind approves of, because he can blame it on his emotions, and because it could have been goatse? And then you have the nerve to tell me to leave because Djur's topic made him emotionally distraught, because he refused to make a counter-argument? You know what should happen? He should be shown the door. Djur, myself, and all other participants in the topic (this statement applies to before his flaming; I will readilly admit that I flamed quite well after he filled it with rubbish) did not break the CoC. Sir Motrax broke it flagrantly and frequently. I heartilly approve of the administration's handing him down a temporary ban. Why are you on such an ego trip that you can't possibly leave the boards? Chrissakes, I don't have a wall in my room where I mark down how many fundies I play the bouncer to. If you don't approve of my posting my historical interpretations that may or may not be influenced by my political leanings, then post a counter-argument. I'm sick of you trying to play a victimised warrior of truth, and everyone else is too. If it really pains you enough to stay here, then leave. We don't have a divine mandate to be politically neutral. Deal with it. quote:One thing I don't get about you is that you often post paragraphs that are completely unnecessary. Save everybody involved some of their precious time and don't post a paragraph if it's worthless. Thanks. quote:Right. Because when someone flames and floods a topic to the point where it's over fifty percent junk, they should be welcomed with open arms. I'm not for permanently banning him, but when I say that he needs to cool the hell down, I mean he needs to cool the hell down for a good, long while. This is an online board. I can't understand your getting so upset. quote:I take personal offense to your statement. And hey, a man with emotions who can do wrong and expects forgiveness because his pretty little emotions made him do it is a madman, a fool, or both. Having emotions is fine. Acting negatively on them is not. If he's that angry, he should sit down, cool off, and talk to somebody about it. I don't care what your position is on his punishment, I can only hope you agree with me when I say that what he did was not the best choice he could have made. ---- It has to be said. You need to cool down now. This place used to be a great place to post. Good lord, what happened to it since then...? Someone new please post on this topic, so we can get it back to what it was meant to be. Thank you. :) [ Wednesday, July 09, 2003 08:47: Message edited by: Schrodinger ] -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 18:49
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Perhaps you are the one who needs to take time to cool down TM. You should remember that there are younger members on these boards. I just ask that you refrain from such colorful language. Yes, this once was a great place to post. Do not be so arrogant to assume that you are not part of the problem which made it so terrible now. There was a reason Schrodinger closed this topic in the first place. Alea Iacta Est -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 19:24
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Sullust, you're a smart fellow, so you tell me: Why did Schrodinger close the topic in the first place? King Micah is Austria, who we battled once in World War 1, and once more if you count it as its own nation after the Anschluss.  Sir David is Hungary, who we battled once in World War 1 as Austria-Hungary.  -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 55
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 19:57
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Austria -and- Hungary in a row? I was expecting to just see Austria-Hungary, I was sort of surprised. I guess we're starting to run out of notable countries. Come on, Bulgaria! Romania! Other countries ending in 'ia' that refined the term 'minor power in a major struggle'! Daddy needs a new pair of combat boots! Posts: 236 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 20:03
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I had to think of two off the fly. I'll see if I can't do better later. -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 21:03
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I am new, um yeah. Japan might of had her offensive capabitlies taken down, but she still had a massive miltia and an Army believing that they were undefeatable. Russia would of been bogged down for a while, moving East would of had the difficulty of dealing with many revolts in the interior. The Russians would also have the difficulty of taking Korea to Reach Hokkaido. That would bog them down for years. All in all, the bomb decision was a split on interpretation on Japan's strength. The Emperor was only personally involved after the bomb, and he was the key to the surrendor. After all, none of Japan proper had been taken as of this point, and the death toll for taking Okinawa and Iwo Jima was extremely high, the Japanese fought nearly to the last man. Only a few hundred of over 20 thousand Japanese surrendered. The plan was orginally to invade Japan. This would of killed a staggering number of Americans, and several times that of Japanese. The Japanese were planing for this, and the wars aim of total surrender could only be done via invasion. The bomb prevented the invasion. Using the intellgance of the time, Truman believed he was saving the lives of millions of people. It also had the benefit of showing off the weapon in a way that proved its power. With hindsight, we can see that demonstration of the weapons on farmland would of probably been enough. However, Truman didn't have that hindsight. The one thing I want to stress is not to see Japan as a victim. Japan was the worst aggressor of the war, and commited huge war crimes that it has not as yet accounted for. -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 21:13
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I'll reply later. Suffice it to say that the Jounin and I discussed this thouroughly on AIM. It's not Japan I'm concerned about, it's the Japanese people. A city, by it's nature, is where civilians live. -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Tuesday, July 8 2003 23:53
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I wouldn't personally say the post-war intervention in Italy was a wholly good thing. As I've already mentioned, the US went to great and dubiously legal means to get an anti-communist in power. Motrax, the Red Army did take Korea. That's the whole backdrop to the Korean War. You might also consider that by going from Sakhalin they got the Kurils, which are no more than a stone's throw from Hokkaido. I also seem to remember that Japan had made previous attempts to surrender through their ambassador to one power or another, but that was ignored. Does anybody know how the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs compared in terms of death tolls to the raids late in the war on Tokyo? -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 01:46
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Motrax is temporarily banned. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Vahnatai Did Do It desperance.net - We're Everywhere The Arena - God Will Sort The Dead ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 06:12
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quote:Normally, I'd guess the bombs were far worse. The way you are asking this question, however, seems to imply that it is the other way around. Which is correct? -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 463
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 06:25
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quote:The Hiroshima bomb killed about 70,000 and destroyed about 4 sq. acres. The great fire-bombing of Tokyo killed 200,000 and destroyed 16 sq. acres. -------------------- Let the soul trading begin. Posts: 431 | Registered: Monday, December 31 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 06:33
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Showing once again that the worst events are usually the one the news didn't say as much about... -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 07:30
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As for the casualty figures, does that include the long-term effects? I understand the cancer rates there are still abnormally high this very day. As for the targets: http://www.dannen.com/decision/targets.html They were thinking of much worse, including the emperor's palace and Kyoto, the traditional capital of Japan. If you're running low on countries, just think South and Central America. Especially Nicaragua (briefly home to an US dictator), and Guatemala. You could pick almost every country in the western hemisphere. Almost. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 517
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 08:07
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quote:He says it's because the flaming/spamming outweighed the usefulness of the topic. He wasn't going to lock it just for Motrax' spam, but when every post thereafter was simply a flame, it had to go. After checking: 4 of the 22 posts made after Motrax started spamming were on-topic, the rest were flames towards him of a greater or lesser degree. Any topic with that much flaming should be locked, and no amount of 'locking lets Motrax win' will stop that. While this is to some degree hypocricy(sp?), the topic wouldn't have been locked if people had just ignored him or asked him in a civilised manner to stop. -E- -------------------- Let them eat cake! Polaris Boards: The System is Up. Perennially. Posts: 2314 | Registered: Tuesday, January 15 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 08:22
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I've been following Hatake's comments with interest. I agree with him that the Japanese militarists firmly belonged with the Axis in their appalling treatment of the Koreans and Chinese, though did exaggerate the death toll caused by gen. Ishii's Unit 731. That he and others are still celebrated in Japan--there is a monument to them, not their victims--is as disgraceful as their rehibilitation by the US to learn their BW secrets. I would disagree about Japanese resilience at the end of WW2. The USAF were destroying a city a night, having complete air superiority and firestorm tactics learned over Europe, where cities were generally not built of wood and paper. The Bomb was only significant inasmuch as it was a new way to destroy a city in one raid and I think there was only enough uranium left for one or two more such attacks after Nagasaki, if I remember correctly. It's generally held that Japan couldn't have withstood more than 50 days more air raids anyway - with every major city ashes, they'd have been 'bombed back into the Stone Age', as said in a later war. The Emporer pretty much decided to throw in the towel after Hiroshima, something the US knew as they'd cracked Purple, the Japanese diplomatic code, at the start of the war. Nagasaki was nuked purely to intimidate the Russians, who seized the whole of Manchuria in mere days and were already squabbling with the Western powers over the fate of Greece and the Balkans. I'd question the electoral consequences of US occupation though, with the same centre-right party holding power for nearly half a century, as in Italy and for the same reason of US-backed Cold War electoral racketeering. Assuming they get round to appointing a government at all, expect the same story in Iraq. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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FAQSELF
Member # 3
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 08:46
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TM- this is your warning. Stop bypassing the censor. -------------------- A few cats short of a kitten pot pie... Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives. Check out a great source for information on Avernum 2, Nethergate, and Subterra: Zeviz's page. Finally, there's my Geneforge FAQ and Geneforge 2 FAQ. Posts: 2831 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 09:38
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While unit 731 is the most infamous, there were several more, some who specialized in chemical weapons rather than the bioweapons that 731 specialized in. These add up, and especially once you consider the lingering deaths caused by abandon weapons scattered over China. On cancer figures, the numbers are argued over heavily. There is a bit higher rate around the two cities, but its not a dead zone or any real danger now. If you include the most stretched figures of radiation deaths due to cancer, you only add about 70% more to the tally. Bad, but not as bad as the conventional weapons. -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 87
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 12:48
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I thought the point of being american was the right to be un-american. oh, well. FAQSLEF. Dresden, anyone? -------------------- Tip of the Day: #13 Stand clear the closing door. That's treason. (THNIK)(Peculiar James, FP productions co, inc) Posts: 816 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 14:44
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The actions of Unit 731 were, IMO, more repugnant than what the Nazis did to their prisoners. The Nazis committed immoral scientific experiments, but they were still scientific experiments. 731 did a lot of 'research' which could have been done more practically in other ways, and even quite a bit of experiments which did nothing but affirm previous physiological truisms. Their work was much more describable as motivated by a wish to torture than a ruthless curiosity. This makes sense, as the Nazis tended to view the people they experimented on as subhuman by birth, whereas the majority of 731's guinea pigs were captured soldiers; it was a prevailing attitude at the time to view surrender in battle as an unrectifiable error. The only reason we remember the Nazi scientists better is because they worked on a much larger scale. The war with Japan being a sea war, they got many fewer prisoners; the limited resources and expert personnel of Japan prevented the sort of large-scale experimentation committed in Germany from occuring during wartime. [ Wednesday, July 09, 2003 14:48: Message edited by: General Custer ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |