United States Conflict Avatars (Cont.)
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 17:58
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731 killed 12 times the number that Mengele did. Mengele also did mostly crazy and worthless experiments with twins and midgets. He liked to try experimental dyes in the eyes, seeing if he could give people blue eyes. Unit 731 was biowarfare. Their research was secret, performed on POWs and Chinese peasents. The also liked to try dispersion and study how plagues spread, they killed hundreds of thousands via poisoning of reservoirs and spreading plauge flies via airdroppings. The bioweapons research was extremely valuable to the US and was done on Chinese, who were considered racailly inferior, thus the government did not have a problems giving a project paperclip pass on 731. While Japan had a fraction of the POWs Germany did, ten times as many POW's died. Many times the number of civilians were killed in experiments, the Nazis tended to just kill their undesirables. The Japanese experiemented or tortured them to death. More can be read here. -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, July 9 2003 18:11
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He did do crazy experiments, true, but few of his experiments were utterly bereft of scientific merit. They all tended to be things that could only be hypothesized at using remotely moral methods; most of his experiments were on previously untrodden ground. Many of 731's experiments didn't make any sense as experiments and were thinly-veiled torture. I might have been generalizing the mad science corps of Japan into Unit 731, and I apologize for that. Substitute whatever names are necessary and you still have a mostly true point, though. -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2300
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written Thursday, July 10 2003 06:02
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We seem to be drifting off-topic... -------------------- Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." - Soviet infantry manual, 1930's Posts: 267 | Registered: Wednesday, November 27 2002 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, July 10 2003 07:00
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Quite honestly, this topic is better. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Vahnatai Did Do It desperance.net - We're Everywhere The Arena - God Will Sort The Dead ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Thursday, July 10 2003 08:33
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I'm not sure it's very helpful weighing atrocities, but would say that whilst Mengele's experiments were repugnant for their motives--affirming Nazi racial ideology--they yielded results on the effects of pressure and temperature on the human body that are still generally used today. You don't hear much about 731 in comparison to this for reasons already stated - the scientists were amnestied in exchange for their BW research, which was classified. (Similarly, von Braun and the Nazi rocket scientists were amnestied under Paperclip to build nuke delivery systems for the US, despite slave labour being employed at Pina Munda.) Given the idea of a BW 'balance of terror' is absurd, 731's research added less to the world than even Mengele's sorry contribution. I must add I disagree with Gen. Custer that the research was gratuitous cruelty. However crude their methods, the Japanese wanted viable BW weapons as they felt the Chinese greatly outnumbered them and later that 'novel weapons' might counter similarly huge numbers of well-armed and well-supplied US forces. Given the weapons were for use on people, how better to test them first? As I understand it, most PoWs used were first captured from the Philippines (US) and Singapore (UK / Oz) - even the journey to Manchuria (which began in the so-called "hell ships") was killed many, and elsewhere would have merited war crimes prosecution. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2300
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written Thursday, July 10 2003 09:10
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quote::D You've got a point there. I just felt the need to raise the issue. -------------------- Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." - Soviet infantry manual, 1930's Posts: 267 | Registered: Wednesday, November 27 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Thursday, July 10 2003 15:01
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The U.S is not as bad as every one thinks. I am not going to get into Asia because I didn't learn too much about Asia and Africa in School. My state Education department didn't think anything vital came out of Asia and Africa. They forgot about Egypt, Nubia, The Moors, Malie, Shunghi, Mongolia, The Hunns, and tons of otther Asian Empires. However I did learn about Brittish History. The U.S had a dark period but so did Brittian. Brittian had Kings and queens like Bloody Marry, King James 1, King Charles 1, Military Dictator Oliver Cromwel, King George, and King Henrry 8. But Brittian allso had good periods like The Victorian period, The Elizabethan period, The Industrial Revolution, Times of Nationalism and Imperialism, and The of course the time when, "The Sun never set on The Brittish Empire".So like Brittian and Russia the U.S had bad times, but it allso had good times. So stop looking at the conns so much, and don't give David a hard time because he mentioned the pro's. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Thursday, July 10 2003 15:33
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Why did the sun never set on the British empire? God didn't trust them in the dark. -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2300
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written Friday, July 11 2003 04:10
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quote:The other empires being those such as the Persian, Hittite, Zulu and Babylonian empires. Take Babylon as an example. Look where it is today. This backs up the argument that all empires/countries go through better times and worse times. Unfortunately, most of the times seem to be worse. -------------------- Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." - Soviet infantry manual, 1930's Posts: 267 | Registered: Wednesday, November 27 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3026
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written Friday, July 11 2003 06:41
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Makes the Spidweb boards seem quite the metaphor, no? -------------------- And this was very odd because It was the middle of the night - Lewis Carrol well well well aren't we resilient Oh the fun Most generalizations are, unfortunately, true. Posts: 212 | Registered: Sunday, May 25 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Friday, July 11 2003 16:43
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^ :D . LoE, it's 'Mali' and 'Songhai' (and 'Britain', with one 't', BTW). And where would Elizabeth I have been without daddy Henry VIII, and his reformation? Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Saturday, July 12 2003 13:04
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She'd have been illegitimate, for a start. Of course, to describe the Industrial revolution (poverty and squalor on a scale never seen before in Britain since the 15th century,) the Victorian Age (workhouses, Matthew Arnold, Peterloo) and the reign of Elizabeth I (prosecution of Catholics) as high points in British history only tells one side of the story. Golden ages are only ever declared by propagandists and people writing centuries after the event. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Sunday, July 13 2003 02:36
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:D Elizabeth was judged illegitimate for most of her childhood, for dynastic reasons. Agreed, 'golden ages' are designated by rulers, not the ruled - as any inhabitant of 'darkest London's rookeries or Indian peasant under the Raj would say of Britain's Age of Empire. The jingoism of the era (esp. the Edwardians, when they were starting to lose it) contaminates even the music of the period. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Monday, July 14 2003 14:16
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First of all Persia and Babylon where in the Mideast, second Zulu was in Natal, South Africa. And Allso, Queen Elizabeth did not persicutethe Catholics, it was actually the otther way around. Queen Elizabeth made a compromise with the Catholics and Protestants, she mixed Catholic and Protestant rituals in the Church of England to make both groups happy. However there was a group of People in the Anglican Church who wanted to purify The Mother Countries church of Catholic rituals, they broke away frome the Church and earned the name Puritans,You are thinking of Louis 14 persicution of the Huganots in Parish in The St Bartolomus Day Massacre. And Yes there was alot of poverty during the Industrial Revolution, but the Industrial Revolution is what made Germany, Great Brittian, The U.S, and Canada so strong. And The Industrial Revolution is one of The Reasons for Brittish Imperialism, which caused The British to createa Empire which they could brag, "The Sun never set on The British Empire". And yes Colonialism led to The Africans and Asians loosing there land and Wealth, but it allso caused Africa and Asia to Become, "Western Civilized". Christianity, Industrialism, A western Constitution, and Imperialism would never had spread to Asia and Africa without Great Brittian, Germany, Russia, and France. [ Monday, July 14, 2003 14:18: Message edited by: The Lord of Evil ] -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Monday, July 14 2003 14:19
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Whoever said Christianity, Imperialism, industrialization, and a western-style constitution were good for them? -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Monday, July 14 2003 14:41
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Well before The Euro's brought Christianity, Imperilism, Industrialism, and a Western Style Constitution Africa and Asia was pitifull. The Great African and Asian Empires which we have allready mentioned had fallen. Mainly because at the end they couldn't maintain there Empires. So in Africa you had little waring tribes, and China and Japan in Asia at the time was isolated frome the rest of the world. However when Imperialism, Idustrialism, and a Western style constitution reached Africa and Asia, Cities where built.Schools where built, Africans and Asians could send there kids too schools so they could become educated. Factories came so the Africans and Asians had jobs, snd the Western Style constitution brought Democracy to Africa and Asia. Sure they used the Africans and Asians has a low form of labour, they took away there land and wealth, and they carved up Africa and Asia without there permission, not to mention that they forced Christianity and Democracy upon them, and they didn't wan't To be converted to Christianity and live a Democratic form of life. Plus The Portuguess and Spainish traded gun powder and rum to the tribe leaders for spices and slaves years earlier, and that led to the slavery issue in PanAmerica in the 19'th centory.But as the saying in the 1970's went, "**** Happens". -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 1046
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written Monday, July 14 2003 15:05
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uh, JF, they were educated in the first place and there were also cities, just in different styles. a lack of Western influence and religion does not denote savagery and lack of civilization. in dynastic China, for example, many could read an write, just that they weren't taught in Western ways. they had education. pretty good too, compared to the crapholes we call 'modern schools'. -------------------- Urban wisdom is not actual wisdom. It's more like the seemingly philosophical statements that sometimes leak out of my strange mind through my mouth, or in the case of message boards, my hands. -------------------- Clan Xeon - Warcraft III clan Polaris - Weather Balloons YAY Undead Theories - Don't Ask, Don't Tell Posts: 3323 | Registered: Thursday, April 25 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, July 14 2003 15:10
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A dose of reality: Africa had had its empires, but they had fallen... and been replaced by new kingdoms. Africa had its own munitions factories, even. When it was colonized by European powers, it was entirely for the good of the occupiers. The period of occupation set African culture and technology back centuries and created new country boundaries without any regard to existing borders, which is part of the reason there are so many African civil wars today. Asia likewise had its own nations and cultures. They were obliterated less completely, mainly because Asians were just seen as barbarians, not subhuman. —Alorael, who doesn't think the colonists brought democracy, either. And while they did bring Christianity, they were a few hundred centuries behind the Ethiopian church and other Christian sects in Africa. Maybe civilization is a good thing, but civilization was not even a secondary goal of colonization. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Monday, July 14 2003 15:13
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Yet another saying that really annoys me, for no particular reason... (in reference to JF's last sentence) Custer, I won't get into an argument about whether or not Christianity was good for them or not, but I can say that Africa seemed to appreciate it, and while it wasn't very well accepted in Asia (many Asian Christians are still brutally persecuted today), those who it caught on with were very happy about it. As for the rest, of course there are disadvantages, but wouldn't you at least agree that Imperialism is better than Isolationism, industrialization is better than a more slave-based system, and democracy is better than authoritarianism? I admit none of it worked as well as it did over here, but think of where they'd be today if none of that had been introduced... think of those African tribes JF mentioned... like I said, it's not perfect, but it was better than the system at the time. EDIT: VWM: Maybe so, but at least today everyone can get an education, no matter the quality... back then, only the rich could, or the extremely smart. [ Monday, July 14, 2003 15:19: Message edited by: Sir David ] -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Monday, July 14 2003 15:16
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Mmh, may I just mention that one of the most famous works on Traditional Chinese Medicine, still a basic one and still a 'must' today, was written approximately 2600 B.C. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Monday, July 14 2003 15:21
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Yeah, they definitely started earlier, that I won't deny. But they were declining while the Western world was on the rise, and that's pretty important today. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 1046
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written Monday, July 14 2003 15:22
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ah yes, i forgot to mention: The Art of War, dammit. i find that it applies to more than war, too. -------------------- Urban wisdom is not actual wisdom. It's more like the seemingly philosophical statements that sometimes leak out of my strange mind through my mouth, or in the case of message boards, my hands. -------------------- Clan Xeon - Warcraft III clan Polaris - Weather Balloons YAY Undead Theories - Don't Ask, Don't Tell Posts: 3323 | Registered: Thursday, April 25 2002 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Monday, July 14 2003 15:28
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Sun Tzu, yes. Decline and rise - seems a question of definition to me. Definition of decline and rise, that is. They were certainly a lot more cultivated than we can ever hope to be. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 521
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written Monday, July 14 2003 16:42
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Yes ef, institutionalized slavery is a good thing. China and other Eastern nations had their glory, and bright spots, but were too insular and suppressed their tech. The communal properties of Confucius feudal systems have their high points, but the flaws should remind us of all it was no paradise. The slavery was rampant in many forms. Peasents were locked to the land, maids were kept as slaves, and the system prevented individual freedom. The lord and nobles used the excuse of civilazation to dominate their people totally, with only a coup to be the hope of the people. Of course, the west wasn't any better until enlightment, even then only marginally so. The west did not hide behind ritual as did the East. The flaws of Chinese medicine were never addressed, its harms in acute disease were not addressed due to ritual, thats why ancient greek text and islamic texts never elevated it to science. Still, there was once a time were being a Chinese peasent was better than any other. In fifty years, it may be again the time of the dragon, (actually I give the date more as June 4, 2009). The Chinese lords were well cultivated. So were all the feudal lords. It's usually a consequence of being a pillager and looter. The samurai were the vanguard of Japanese culture, the knights, Europe's. To want to emulate the romantic historic worlds is one thing, to want the real ones is quite another. I do not deny the great contribution of ancient China, I just doubt they themselves were great. All the golden ages are frauds. No real civilization has taken root on this planet. Maybe one day it will. [ Tuesday, July 15, 2003 13:29: Message edited by: Kakashi ] -------------------- I am not really here. Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 798
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written Monday, July 14 2003 17:24
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K, Africa and Asia was bad during The Age of Imperialism, but they where even worse before during the Age of Isolation. Today there is many areas in Africa where there are Political instabilitity, ect. But there are prosperous parts of Africa, mainly the cities in Africa, it's the jungles where the Gorila groups are. But the cities are very prosperous, and if it wasn't for Imperialism where would those cities be today.So there was good that came out of The Age of Imperialism, but off course in Africa there is alot of Civil Wars and political instability. And that did originate frome Imperialism. As for Asia they had a bad time off course, but I think there making up for it now. I mean The Asian Market is going to be the next big thing. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |