United States Conflict Avatars (Cont.)
Pages
| Author | Topic: United States Conflict Avatars (Cont.) |
|---|---|
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 55
|
written Tuesday, July 15 2003 00:38
Profile
Homepage
quote:By what standards? Education rate? Industrial power? Military might? Life expectancy? It certainly wasn't much to do with human rights, when you consider that the people were just a nice, cheap way to rape the hell out of the land. quote:It's not that there is just lots of political instability. It's that there are no areas of Africa without political instability, because a couple of centuries ago a bunch of Europeans who didn't know better decided that all black people were the same and should be able to live together fine. The guerillas are in the rural areas because that's what they can hit, but most of Africa is rural area. Plus, that sort of hit to your rural economy, even in an industrialized nation like Britain or the United States, is very very bad. The cities are hardly very prosperous...sure, imperialism generated heaps of wealth. The problem is that the wealth went to white folks who popped by Africa to see how their investments were doing. Your Nelson Mandelas and Kofi Annan's are world famous for a reason...they're the exceptions to the rule. If it wasn't for imperialism, the cities might be a fair bit poorer, but the average quality of life would be up as the gap would be smaller and the poor would be a fair bit better off. And there'd be a lot less quite people in them. quote:Well, I'm glad you admit it. :) But the idea of 'imperialism generated wealth, so the wars can be excused' is not one that makes me happy. quote:Actually, the Asian market is already a big thing. There's a reason all the shoe factories are in Asia and it ain't human decency. (Edit: It's spelt Nelson Mandela, dumbwad penguin. I'd also like to apologize for dissecting the whole post like that...I just meant to do the first bit and it snowballed. :P ) [ Tuesday, July 15, 2003 00:40: Message edited by: Lord Bob ] Posts: 236 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
|
Guardian
Member # 2476
|
written Tuesday, July 15 2003 01:13
Profile
Sorry for having been a bit sharp. You were right to stop me there, Ikari. It was in reaction to the suggestion that anything we brought and bring must needs be better than anything a people had before. I'm less bothered by the arrogance of such a mental attitude than by the realization that it is a pretty good excuse to ignore whatever there was before, not deeming it worth more than the most superficial of glances. I won't deny that the current humanitarian situation in Iraq has added a few flames to my fire. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 2300
|
written Tuesday, July 15 2003 02:58
Profile
quote:I am aware of where these empires were situated. But the Middle East and South Africa still count as African/Asian, I think. -------------------- Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." - Soviet infantry manual, 1930's Posts: 267 | Registered: Wednesday, November 27 2002 08:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 798
|
written Tuesday, July 15 2003 06:46
Profile
Homepage
Okay, Okay, so I was a bit biosed to the Europeon side. But all I'm trying to say is that Africa and Asia would be far worse today if it wasn't for Imperialism. And everyone blamnes The White Eros for the reasone why Africa is so screwed up. And yes the Euros did do much bad for Africa. But has anyone thought that maybe one of the reasons why Africa has all the problems is because of the Black African Dictators who ran Africa before and after the Whites where running Africa. Like I said the Euros are a mojore factor twords Africas moden day turmoile. But the Africans did contribute to Africas problems allso. All I'm trying to say is maybe the Africans should take more responsibility twords there actions. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 22
|
written Tuesday, July 15 2003 10:20
Profile
quote:Possibly one of your funniest sentences since your Black Power speech, JF. -------------------- KazeArctica: "Imagine...wangs everywhere...and tentacles. Nothing but wangs and tentacles! And no pants!" Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 496
|
written Tuesday, July 15 2003 12:23
Profile
JF really is incredibly, perennially unselfconscious, isn't he? You've got to admire him for that. A few points, though: Elizabeth felt her power firmly rooted in Anglicanism / proto-English nationalism, with it's identification with the national ruler. He 'toleration' of Catholicism included replacing the Virgin Mary with herself in religious iconography and taxing (as opposed to slaughtering) Catholicism out of existence. That Puritans were even more anti-Catholic hardly excuses her as supposedly 'enlightened and free-thinking'. On Africa, JF actually refers to Songhai as an African empire, demonstrating their sophistication. What really shattered African cultures was slavery - first Islamic and then (c.C14) European, forcing waves of migration southwards, with only the most militarised societies (such as the Zulus) prevailing. I will not deny that some Africans willingly participated in this - much of the wealth of African empires such as Songhai came from the slave trade (as well as kola nuts, etc), as did the West's. Late-C19 European colonisation of Africa was on a belated anti-slavery rhetoric just to put a humanitarian gloss on their neutraliaation of local and Moslem rivals for power on the continent. No one could pretend Leopold's treatment of the Congo (with its bounty of human hands) or general genocidal 'hammering' of all native resistance was at all humanitarian ot the lot of those colonised was better than that of slaves. The few that were educated were just native supervisors needed to bulk out European administration and typically laid the seeds for civil war following decolonisation. On China, was its feudalism any worse than the opium chaos Europeans imposed by gunboat and massacre (as in the Tai'ping revolt) to 'open up' the country? I defend neither, but think it arrogant that a Western way of life principally benefitting powerful Westerners should be imposed globally against indigenous wishes. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 798
|
written Tuesday, July 15 2003 17:37
Profile
Homepage
I was talking about African and Asian Dictators after Euro Colonializm. Look there use to be a Military Dictator of Uganda a few years ago named Eddie Armien Dalah. Eddie Armien Dalah loved to do two things, one was to watch Tom and Jerry cartoons. The otther was to eat people, he use to eat people. How can you look at me in a straight face and say, "Dictators like Eddie Armien Dalah did not contribute to the reasone why African countries like Uganda are so screwed up". And as for Asian Dictators, look at Ho Chi Ming, no comment needed. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 22
|
written Wednesday, July 16 2003 00:47
Profile
Yes, yes, JF you're quite right. I now see it's quite obvious. All Africans are vicous, barbaric savages. I mean, that guy used to eat people! What kind of people are they? In the end, dictators don't do a tremendous amount of damage to countries in the long run. I don't know much about this Ugandan guy, but I'm sure it was a colonial power that put him on his way to the top. -------------------- KazeArctica: "Imagine...wangs everywhere...and tentacles. Nothing but wangs and tentacles! And no pants!" Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 496
|
written Wednesday, July 16 2003 00:56
Profile
Idi Amin Dada learned his trade as a sergeant in the British army, Uganda's former colonial masters, and is now exiled to Saudi Arabia where I don't see ther US offering a $25m reward for him. A lot of post-colonial conflicts were set up by 'divide and rule' tactics under colonialism, hardly a lesson in fair, non-racist, democratic politics in itself. Rwanda is a case in point, the distinctions between Hutus and Tutsi originally being a French imposition. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 798
|
written Wednesday, July 16 2003 08:44
Profile
Homepage
K, so a African dictaor can eat his own people but at the end The Euro's are to blame for Africas problems, not the dictators. That makes no sense. [ Wednesday, July 16, 2003 08:45: Message edited by: The Lord of Evil ] -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2669
|
written Wednesday, July 16 2003 09:08
Profile
Homepage
Look, everything in modern-day Africa was imposed from the top down by the colonial powers. The government structure, the borders, the military, the weapons, all imports. The Europeans put a structure in place in which very few could exploit very many, relatively safely and successfully. Traditional African ways of government were completely ignored (there may be exceptions that I'm not aware of). So, yes, it was the European's fault for having a military dictator in Uganda since they created the military, the government structure, the weapons, and probably the uniform on his back. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
|
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
|
written Wednesday, July 16 2003 11:13
Profile
It's not all the fault of the colonists. Some things they did were good. But in many cases they got out too fast (often because the natives were angry at a century of oppression) and took too many of the skilled workers with them. They also tended to hand over power to one tribe and not realise that this was going to cause trouble when the other tribe seized power. The bare bones of the economy were in place, but for example when Congo became independent, it had only 7 university graduates. Of course, much of the damage done to Africa has been done by Africans. But when you've got Cecil Rhodes as the founder of your nation, it's not that much of a change. Besides, Jeffrey Dahmer ate people too. The only difference is that he was outwardly normal and wasn't a head of state. As to the prosperity- I have a friend whose father works in South Africa. He's out in Pretoria right now. And you can bet that when he gets back he will not have met many black people. The wealth of Africa is still largely in the hands of whites living in compounds in the city. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 798
|
written Friday, July 18 2003 19:07
Profile
Homepage
Gee last I checked most of the African Dictators are black. And very wealthy. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
|
Lifecrafter
Member # 585
|
written Friday, July 18 2003 19:25
Profile
Homepage
LET THIS TOPIC DIE SIR. -------------------- The many faces of Logalot -------------------- Polaris Roleplaying and Debating Board- 'Nuf said -------------------- Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Posts: 780 | Registered: Friday, February 1 2002 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 496
|
written Saturday, July 19 2003 02:19
Profile
:rolleyes: And most of them were educated at Oxford or the Sorbonne too. Damned uncivilised fellows they have running those colleges, apparently. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 798
|
written Saturday, July 19 2003 06:06
Profile
Homepage
So now you're blaming the people who run the universities. Get a life. -------------------- Look Ma, I'm banned! Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00 |
|
BANNED
Member # 4
|
written Saturday, July 19 2003 07:22
Profile
Homepage
Do you read the posts, or do you just say what sounds clever and insults the other person? She was saying that African dictators are very well educated. You're saying that she's blaming universities. Please, I don't see how you're making that extrapolation. -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
|
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
|
written Saturday, July 19 2003 09:17
Profile
Last I checked, you don't have a leg to stand on. The dictators may be wealthy, but they aren't the only wealthy ones, and those who live in countries with rich natural resources are by nature generally beholden to rich multinational corporations. And since X happens to be right, don't you think it'd be better to concede that point gracefully? -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
|
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
|
written Saturday, July 19 2003 10:03
Profile
Homepage
To risk a foray back into the original topic: Lord of Evil is Canada, which the US made an abortive attempt to invade in 1812. The three-pronged invasion planned went off badly, with the Detroit front failing badly and Detroit eventually surrendering to Britain, the Niagra front holding out only until October, and the Lake Champlain forces withdrawing without a fight. A successful Canadian invasion followed, with British troops eventually going so far as to threaten Baltimore. In 1814, France began to crumble, allowing Britain to devote a greater military presence to Canada. After the Battle of Bladensburg in 1814, the building then called the Presidential Palace and now called the White House was burned to the ground -- and all that saved the rest of Washington was inclement weather. The only decisive American victory was the Battle of New Orleans, which occured some weeks after a cease-fire was signed. The conquest and annexation of Canada continued to be the pipe-dream of American hawks for most of the 19th century.  [ Saturday, July 19, 2003 10:04: Message edited by: General Custer ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
|
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
|
written Sunday, July 20 2003 05:55
Profile
Somebody already did Canada. I think Guatemela's still not been claimed. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 496
|
written Sunday, July 20 2003 06:31
Profile
I didn't want to focus unduly (or unkindly) on Lord of Evil's observaton that most African dictators were Black either. Most people in Africa are Black - most likely all were precolonially. Is he seriously saying that there's some correlation between ethnicity and propensity to dictatorship? He should have checked out apartheid South Africa run by Whites (Afrikaaners, to state their tribal affiliation), replaced by a vastly more democratic Black government, or any of the governments of the former Eastern Bloc who happened to be run by wealthy White dictators because (surprise, surprise) the majority of people in those European countries are White too. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
|
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
|
written Sunday, July 20 2003 11:30
Profile
Homepage
Actually, someone already did the war I did. I know it's cheating to include the now-country which the war occurred in instead of the nation instigating the war, but still. -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
|
Warrior
Member # 1892
|
written Sunday, July 20 2003 13:19
Profile
I'm Ireland: Enough said. -------------------- Share this Dragon If you do, Then Lucky End For them and You ----------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- —Alorael, whose addiction is going strong. The nice thing about liquid skribbane extract is that it's far more concentrated. It only takes a few gallons to get his fix, whereas chewing leaves would take forever. Literally. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fall under the shadow Posts: 98 | Registered: Sunday, September 15 2002 07:00 |
|
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
|
written Sunday, July 20 2003 13:55
Profile
Homepage
a. You don't give these to yourself. :P b. The US never got involved in any real war involving Ireland. -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
|
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
|
written Sunday, July 20 2003 14:04
Profile
There was an abortive invasion of Canada in 1870, but that was never done by the government. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |