quote:

---

Oh, and I wouldn't be surprised if the zombie ended up saying "braiins".

---

quote:

---

Gah. This thing seems to have almost started completely over, thanks to an influx of new debaters. Amazing how it's still only on page 8.

---

quote:

---

Yes.

Geneforge 3 & 4 show quite clearly the Drakons are prepared to go to any length to kill the Shapers. For example killing all the students in the greenwood academy, because they might be dangerous in the future. And of course, unleashing the Unbound.

---

quote:

---

So how do those too relate? They don't

---

quote:

---

Child: "Oo, look at the dog, come here boy!"

Dog: "Pant pant."

Child: "That's a good boy." BOOM!!!

---

quote:

---

However the shapers have two saving graces that the drakons don't:
1 Drakons gentic self shaping causes maddness. It has been made evedent in the unbound, the drakon's tendencies, canisters, and geneforges that maddness is an unavoidable side effect of their pursit for power. The only way for them to survive is to conintue research that will make them unstable and no one with that out amount of power should be unstable. Let me put it this way, Drakon techinques increase the likely hood of becomeing menstable by several hundredfold (if not thousand), where as traditional shaping techinques the chances are nill.
2 The shapers have experince. Some of the shaper laws are meant to keep them from being challenged. They also make a good point about the dangers of letting every bum off the street shape. The shapers also have some pratical rules like not making new stronger crops becuase they will exhaust the soil and poteinally destroy the enviorment. Are the drakons likely to adobt the shapers more pratical rules? I doubt it. The Drakons who have proven themselves just as cruel as shapers will have to make all of the mistakes the shapers have just when the shapers where starting to learn from them.

I don't support the trakvoite ending for three reasons.
One is that you can't eradicate shaping nor can you erdicate shaping research. The fact that the rouge shapeing techinques have surived despite the shapers best efforts is testiment to that. Even if the whole of soceity was against shaping the shapers and rebel lifecrafters would go into a quite life until horrors of shaping where forgotten and bring back shapeing a new. Only this time no one would no how to deal with it.

Two is that society will find a way to destroy it self. With them it is shaping, with us it is nukes. Even if you could somehow manage to find some method of stoping shapeing, how long would it be before it was replaced by some magic or technolgy equally destructive?

Three is shaping is useful. To compeletly remove shaping from soceity would be the same as banning electricity. Even if you did it over time, it would be an indication of soceitys slow driffting into poverty if nothing else. Their society has depended on shapeing for untold millieums, and yet you want to remove it compeletly with in a few decades?

edit: Trakovites may be right about shaping being dangerous but it would better to figure out how to control shaping before trying to learn some new dangerous magic which they know nothing about.

---

quote:

---

Personally, I prefer the Neutral path, where I get to kill both the Shaper and Rebel heroes, and their leaders, Michael and Asura, pave the way for the reincarnation of the goddess, and still get the girl.

---

quote:

---

If Ghaldring takes the thoughts of other Drakons into account, it's only because he's afraid that his rule will come to a violent end if he doesn't do his absolute best to offend none of them.

---

quote:

---

That's because creations simply don't have the diversity of thought that humans do. It just isn't built into them. They're hardwired to follow certain patterns of thought, and the Drayks and Drakons were war machines, so they are hardwired to follow violent thoughts. It's okay for the humans to target Drayks and Drakons for extermination because the Drayks and Drakons are unanimously against them. The original slaughtering of Drayks was wrong, and Nalyd does not support that at all, but the current war is justified. If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination. But they weren't.

---

quote:

---

PS By taking that condecending tone you basically should put yourself into the category of talking of things unrelated to the Geneforge world, like a 5 year old talking down to 4 year olds.

---

quote:

---

Drakons have no moral limits, unlike any other sentient species in this game. If they want something, they'll go for it, and God help anyone or anything that gets in their way (The revenge they pursue now, and the unbound they unleash). If you serve no use to them now or in the near future, you're discarded like trash (the human side of the rebellion; it's obvious that if Ghaldring hadn't stepped in, the humans would rot in the Forsaken lands). If you aren't a friend, you're an enemy (all of the innocents getting slaughtered by random drakon attacks). If you show dissent, you're mercilessly butchered (The cryodrayks near the broken bridge).

Compared to this, the Shapers are actually quite hospitable and friendly.

---

quote:

---

I mean, telling me to remain impersonal when I responded tongue in cheek to a particular rude poster calling me 'deluded'. He puts Faux News 'fair and balanced' analytical skills to shame, hmmm?

Oh, and note how he tells me not to be an idiot, while in the same breath stating that we should keep the debate impersonal. Such a tactic is surely conducive to a pleasant and to the point discussion.

It seems that some members on these boards can dish it out, but can't take it.

So let's end this posturing and empty rhetoric, and get back to the discussion at hand, hmmm? You could start by providing some sort of evidence to support your blanket statements regarding the Drakon race. You claim that you've already posted this evidence, so it shouldn't be too hard for you to comb through your previous posts and paste it into a new reply, minus the prattle and insults.

---

quote:

---

I never denied that Ghaldring's strength does not play a role in his rule. What I did contest was Retlew's claim that Ghaldring's rule did not involve taking into consideration the thoughts of his Drakon comrades. In case everyone has forgotten: "Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think," Yet clearly Ghaldring retains his rule in part due to his taking into consideration the thoughts and opinions of the other Drakons. He didn't obtain popular support amongst the Drakons by bullying them . Quite the contrary, he garners their respect via diplomacy.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war.

---

The reason that Drayks and Drakons are targeted for extermination is because they are too independent, and hence believed to represent a potential threat. Such a mentality is identical to that used to exterminate the Kurds, Armenians and Jews.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers.

---

False. Revenge definitely is on the agenda for some Rebels, although survival and freedom clearly take a higher priority. And many drayks, and even some Drakons, have expressed that they would be willing to live in peace if the Shapers left them alone. For example:

Dryss from the Taker Toll road in GF2:

"That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into.";

Issss-Ta, from Zhass-Usss in GF2:

"You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves."

---

quote:

---

I took 30 minutes of my life to make this hope your happy

---