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No argument vs. Drayks, but the drakons are bound by neither reason nor mercy (Ghaldring aside).

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False. Your blanket statement is so absurd, I don't think it really requires a rebuttal.

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Show me where it's wrong. Go ahead. Or is it that I've just hit upon something you can't turn aside?

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Innocent? Are these the same humans who supply the Shapers, feed them, provide equipment for their cruel Shaping experiments, and happily exploit servile labour while baying for Drayk and Drakon blood? Granted, not all humans are Shapers, but they do resemble the Germans who happily profited under Nazi rule. Don't expect any sympathy from me.

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I apologize; Apparently, empathy is something you consider beneath you. Let's try a simple scenario to see: If someone makes a loaf of bread that feeds a starving person that would have died without it and has never been seen, heard, or contacted in anyway by the person who made the loaf, and said person then went and massacred a dozen people, would the person who made the loaf be responsible?

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What do you think most history is?

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If Ghaldring ruled simply by being the strongest, then he would have taken Salassar out the back and ripped him a new hole, without all the finagling involving the PC.

But as Ghaldring himself explains:

"Why didn't you kill Salassar yourself?"

"It would not have been wise. Drakons are proud. If they felt I was only ruling by killing those I did not like, then, no matter how much they owed me, they would have brought me down in the end."

So clearly Ghaldring doesn't rule just by 'being the strongest', but by winning the hearts and minds of his fellow Drakons. He needs to take the wishes and feelings of his Drakons into account, or else they will gang up and usurp him. If Ghaldring's views do not reflect the common view of his Drakons, then it only follows that he would be deposed.

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Ghaldring does rule by being the strongest. If he ruled by violently being the strongest, then the other Drakons would temporarily unite and rip him apart. As it is, he rules tenuously by working not to offend any other Drakons too badly, by frantic political maneuvering to keep them occupied with each other, appealing to the Drakon sense of "honor" by saying, rightly so, that they owe him for bringin the Rebellion so far, and by creating an object of focus in Salassar. A very tenuous rule indeed.

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So are the Jews. Haven't you ever noticed how Jews have a habit of ascending to positions of economic and political power? The Kurds in Iraq were dangerous, too. As were the Armenians in Turkey.

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The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war. And, to be honest, you refer to stereotypes.

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Yep, that's a logical conclusion. Independent beings usually don't like being under someone's thumb.

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Glad you agree.

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Conjecture. You're assuming that every race is as vile, imperialistic, controlling and violent as the Shapers.
Perhaps genocide was not the best solution, and Nalyd certainly doesn't think it was, but given the centuries of Shaper conditioning and the good track record of this method, it was a reasonable one.

The policy of genocide doesn't have a good track record, as evidenced by a Rebellion where the serviles, eyebeasts, drayks and drakons are all united.

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What would you see them as having done? Making hemp bracelets and drinking tea? No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers. Also, the Shapers are not a race, nor are they all identical. They are a caste, and one that is growing increasingly varied.

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When such disparate races come together despite their differences, that symbolizes how the genocide policy has failed.

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That is the first time that that method has failed. The first, in many centuries of Shaper rule. When something becomes uncontrollable, kill it and everything related to it. Granted, when it fails, it fails spectacularly, but the Shapers couldn't know this. Their own emergence from Shaping had long since been buried in millennia of history.

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No, just no. Please, I urge you to replay Geneforge 4. The Drakons engaged in conventional warfare against the Shapers. They were smashed. The human/servile resistance was annihilated. The Drakons retreated to Northforge to create the Unbound while the Shapers advanced. Finally, the Unbound were completed, just as the Shapers reached the Northforge Warrens.

It was either release the Unbound and save the Rebellion, or destroy the Unbound and have the Rebellion quashed, and the remaining humans, serviles, drayks, drakons and eyebeasts (we can't forget the poor baby eyebeasts, can we now?) slaughtered.

Releasing the Unbound was justifiable self defense.

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Have you seen the number of Drakons in the Northforge areas? Have you seen the number and quality of Shaper troops around those same areas? Don't say the Drakons didn't have a chance, they had a very considerable one, and no less than they ever had. It was about as justifiable as launching the nukes because you lost a battle. The Drakons were hardly "crushed" in conventional warfare. They barely even fought.

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As you so astutely point out, the human/servile part of the Rebellion can afford to have the 'moral highground' because they allow the Drakons to do their dirty work.

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The Drakons have more or less abandoned the human Rebellion the humans have to fend for themselves, and with quite a bit less resources than the Drakons, and seem to be doing quite well surviving.

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You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise?

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You know exactly what he meant. Don't be an idiot. Keep the debate impersonal.

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False. I could dig up quotes from numerous Drakons who, at the very least, are willing to tolerate the company of non-Drakons. But I don't know if I should expend the effort, as I feel that you're not arguing in good faith.

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Tolerating the company of? KKK members can "tolerate the company of" blacks if they want to. And using them in battle isn't "tolerant".

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This was a chance. He could have very well lost his rule if the PC hadn't come along and conveniently forced Salassar's hand.

No, the Drakons wouldn't care at all if all humans died today. They just don't have a reason to expend effort and make more enemies at the moment. If Drakons won? Human slaves. Maybe.

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Yes. Can't you see why Drakons need to shape in order to fight a far superior force of Shaping masters? What do you expect the Drakons to use in their fight against the Shapers... sticks and cotton balls?

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They could use their own two-ton fire-spewing selves. Nalyd doesn't accuse them for Shaping, but their is no necessity whatsoever for the Unbound.

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No they didn't. The Drakons took control. Isn't that what military leaders do? They establish a base of operations, and then order those of lower rank about? It's not exactly pleasant, but in warfare these things must occur.

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But why are the Serviles of lower rank? Because they have less inborn fighting ability? They are more mentally stable? They are less violently radical? They are less bloodthirsty? Why?

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According to that logic, every human in the Shaper army, as well as those who supply and feed said army, are slave labour.

I agree that the Drakons who moved into Khima-Uss didn't exactly go about the acquisition diplomatically, but to condemn them for merely establishing a base of operations during a war, and equating their actions to slave labour, is hyperbole.

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Explain the elaborate artwork and sculpture in Khima-Uss. Hardly warfare-applicable, is it.

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So you agree that the Shapers survival did not depend on their ability to Shape?

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Not entirely, no, Shaper survival did not depend on their ability to Shape. It certainly didn't hurt, but beyond the first tumultuous war for supremacy, Shaping was not necessary.

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False. A rare few developments in Shaping came from numerous Shaping experiments, many of which were cruel and unnecessary. Merely because some experiments brought about advancements, does not mean that all (or even the majority) of experiments performed were necessary or relevant.

For example, one particular Nazi experiment involved bleeding prisoners, and observing the process of blood loss leading to death. Today, that experimental material is used by the medical establishment to determine how much blood loss has occured in a patient who has suffered trauma.

According to your rationale, since one Nazi experiment brought about advancements, then the entire slew of experiments served the greater good.

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Knowledge does not come without a price. If the Nazis had not engaged in such violent research, how many would have died due to lack of knowledge? The only reason that Shaping has not brought about untold benefits is that the research is insanely, horrifically, complicated. More or less like shooting radiation at chicken embryos to try and make them into cows. And most of this research is directed at warfare.


The desire to gain knowledge, perverse? Never. Never. Your prejudice towards happy ignorance is too blatant here. Nalyd will leave you to it, Eloi, and wait with the other Morlocks.

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No they aren't. Terrorists delibrately target civilians for political purposes. The Rebels release creations whose role is to kill the Shapers and their allies, but unfortunately cause a lot of collateral damage. A more accurate comparison is with the artillery bombardment employed by first world nations such as the United States and Israel.

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And that makes them better? The U.S. and Israel are hardly tolerable, let alone perfect.

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He seems mentally stable to me. Merely because you disagree with his ideology, does not automatically make him insane.

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That is, perhaps, overstating the issue, but Drakons, as a whole, are more irrational, prone to anger, greed, violence, and squabbling than humans. Are these desirable traits.

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He seems mentally stable to me. Merely because you disagree with his ideology, does not automatically make him insane.

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Not insane, but certainly not stable.

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Backstabbing, brainwashing and hypocrisy? I have never observed such things in the Drakon resistance.

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Brainwashing, not so much, backstabbing, so much and so blatant as to be natural. Hypocrisy, Nalyd's memory is failing him.

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Millions? Your hyperbole generator is acting up again.

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Millions, yes. Graphics take time and space, and the spaces between the zones almost always contain farms.

They posed a threat because they would soon become uncontrollable war machines.

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Quite frankly, the Nazis were clearly correct in assuming that the Jews were too independent and dangerous to be allowed to exist. Look at the carnage that resulted in places such as the Warsaw Ghetto, because the Jews there were allowed to survive! So are the Jews. Haven't you ever noticed how Jews have a habit of ascending to positions of economic and political power? The Kurds in Iraq were dangerous, too. As were the Armenians in Turkey.

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Ooh, a pseudo race of poor people. Threatening. Ooh, a two-ton tower of fiery muscle and armor, hungry for revenge. Threatening. Very comparable.

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For me, however, WoW just is awful for a dedicated solo player...

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What makes Trakovite viewpoint flawed is lack of realism. They are idealists, presenting a philosophy that answers some questions of ethical nature, but they don't have a valid theory as how the world economics could be upkept in shape without shaping. Remember, in the Geneforge world shaping influences almost every aspect of life. The plant growth is aided with shaping, the tools are shaped, serviles were shaped strong so that they could do muscle-intensive jobs much more efficiently than humans.
The Trakovites don't mention how would they see the world running without shaping. They only call it evil, period.
As for the Shapers and the Rebellion, in both groups you can find different members, some compassionate, some very narrowminded, some with liberal views and some very conservative. But still, when looking at the top of these two organisations, whatever they say it is a simple struggle for power. The shapers want to keep their rule, the drakons want to replace them. You may think that the creations would be better off under the rule of the drakons, but it is very possible that humans would be used as a sort of slave race instead of serviles. And the drama would be the same, only with different actors.

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I think the morality of Shapers is still quite underestimated here. Remember that one town, Valeya, I think. The guardian there was supposed to be infiltrating Rebel lands, sabotaging and spying and all that rot. But he isn't doing those things when you find him, he is patrolling the town, a town on the front, no, a town beyond enemy lines to protect its inhabitants. Where are these heartless, cruel people that are being spoken of?

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ow are the Rebels any less autocratic than the Shapers? I would argue the opposite. Though it seems most of the nobility has taken up shaping, many smaller towns and even some larger ones are governed by non-shaper humans. Rebel lands, on the other hand, are, more often than not, lorded over directly be some kind of drakon overseer. You all seem to take for granted the many freedoms afforded by Shaper rule. People live in peace and prosperity under Shaper rule, creations are well taken care of. But even creations must grovel in the presence of drakon masters on the rebel side. The drakon's couldn't even be bothered when the human administrated Southforge fell.

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