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Here's to the upcoming GF 5 and 6 ... in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Saturday, August 12 2006 11:17 Profile #7
I've said this before, but personally I'm ready to see something totally new. Don't get me wrong, I like Geneforge and Avernum, but I think it's time for a nice standalone game like Nethergate.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Idea for realsing creations in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Saturday, August 12 2006 11:14 Profile #17
quote:
If anything, I think that implementing a true way to capture a rogue creation -- which may be an NPC, spawned creation, or one of your own -- for a short while would quickly give rise to being able to release creations.
Basically this is sort of like charming, but more complicated.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
armor and whatnot in Avernum 4
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Saturday, August 12 2006 08:45 Profile #1
Wow, you could try to flow this a little better.

The +/- % to hit chance does what it says. When you put on bulky armor, you have less of a chance to hit. This is a balance thing that the player must offset with dexterity to get the good armor.

As far as the BoA Editor, it comes with the demo, but you cannot actually run the scenarios you make until you buy the game. Strictly speaking, you do not need to script to write a scenario. However, to write a scenario of any decent quality, you will need to be able to use at least some of the basic scripting features.

[ Saturday, August 12, 2006 08:47: Message edited by: *i ]

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Beta Testing in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Thursday, August 10 2006 17:56 Profile #3
Asking for more depends on the need of course. If enough testers returned from previous runs, then there may not be any new ones.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Thursday, August 10 2006 09:28 Profile #153
quote:
For example, say you learn rudimentary Japanese for a trip over the summer. You know all the basic conversational questions and answers, but you couldn't fully express your thoughts to a native Japanese speaker.
Well, that means I have to learn my Japanese better, does it not? There is no inherent barrier, would I be willing to put in the effort to learn. To the best of my knowledge, no dolphin or ape society has developed writing as means to communicate and store history, if they can even comprehend history beyond their lifetime.

quote:
Until we find a way to scientifically prove humans and only humans can think abstractly about the world around them, it isn't safe to assume other species can or can't.
You are aware we can't scientifically "prove" anything, right? It is impossible, at least in the forseeable future to read minds of animals. However, we can do experiments with animals to test certain things.

We know dolphins are very intelligent, giving themselves their own name and having a complex society as far as animals go. The experiments go on and are probably the closest to humans intellectually. However, we have yet to observe dolphin societies that have developed means to significantly alter their environments to improve their means of survival.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Wednesday, August 9 2006 18:40 Profile #146
I'm saying they share some in common, but they cannot comprehend much of what we can. I'm certain their politics are much simpler than ours, they cannot comprehend the issues we can. Their politics is definitely not "equally complex".

Again, you are grasping at minor details and very specific examples I give and not the big picture. Sure, you will find similar things elsewhere as you get "closer" to humans in an evolutionary sense. I doubt you will find any other species with the ability to ponder and analyze the universe around them which is huge in being self-aware.

[ Wednesday, August 09, 2006 18:47: Message edited by: *i ]

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Geneforge Beta Testing in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Wednesday, August 9 2006 16:42 Profile #1
I'm not going to try to speak for Jeff, but in the past he has preferred testers stay somewhat isolated so that their reactions can be unique without "corruption" of what other testers can say.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Wednesday, August 9 2006 12:31 Profile #143
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

No offence i*, but you probably should have put in mathematics instead of calculas in your last post. Most of the human population probably wouldn't be able to learn calculus. Also, how many serviles or drakons would be able to learn calculus?
This goes back to the fallacy of one part missing means the whole is as well. Suppose 5% of the human population can learn calculus, this means that as a species we are, in principle capable of abstract thought.

Each and every human being incable of comprehending each and every abstract thought out there does not imply that humans as a whole cannot comprehend abstract thought. I contend it does not matter how many can learn calculus, as long as some can learn some abstract thoughts beyond basic instinct or programmed instructions.

For example, my computer has programs that allow it to do calculus. Does that make it intelligent? Definitely not. The computer is only able to follow rigorous instructions. It is unable to develop methods to solve calculus problems that have yet to be solved because it cannot "understand" the theory behind calculus, it can only do what it is told. Humans, on the other hand, do not have preset instructions for calculus, we think about it abstractly.

Back to GF, Serviles and Drakons clearly understand the concept political freedom and liberty, an abstract concept. I doubt any animal (or my computer for that matter) could really understand that beyond being in a cage or from very specific instructions. From what we've seen of the Serviles and Drakons, they tend to be quite articulate.

Serviles in GF2 were able (with the help of Tulderac) develop and breed their own Drakons to defend Drypeak. Likewise the Drayks and Drakons could comprehend genetics well enough to refine themselves as well as create things like Rotghoths. Such things I would put as requiring abstract thought.

[ Wednesday, August 09, 2006 12:32: Message edited by: *i ]

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Wednesday, August 9 2006 03:29 Profile #140
Keep in mind by intelligent I'm meaning sentient. Talking is not required. Abstract thought is. Yes, gorrilas and dolphins are capable of rudimentary language skills, but I doubt you will find one capable of learning and comprehending calculus.

Vlish are the same way, "intelligent" relative to other creations. However, I don't see any sign of them being more than just a roamer with psionic abilities. The difference between a Gazer and a Vlish is much more than eyes and a mouth I contend.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Tuesday, August 8 2006 20:26 Profile #138
quote:
There's an artilla in Fort Kentia that is on the verge of going rogue, and you can actually try to talk it into either joining you or letting you put it out of its misery peacefully. Talking artillas may be more the exception than the rule, but the fact remains that all creations can be given some level of ability to understand and respond to human speech. You never have a conversation with a vlish or roamer in game, but that doesn't mean it's inherently impossible for a sufficiently skilled shaper to give them the ability. Thaads and Battle Alphas are usually mute by default by skilled shapers can give them at least a rudimentary ability to speak and reason.
Again, the ability to speak and understand some speech is fairly low level. A lot of creatures can communicate with very crude language like things, but that does not make them "intelligent".

quote:
Also, the abstract thought argument doesn't hold because drayks and most drakons lack empathy or remorse, meaning they're unable to understand the concept of protecting and defending the weak or general kindness.
This has got to be the most non-sequitor argument that I've heard this week. I'll break this up into a few points:

I don't see any evidence that Drayks/Drakons are unable to feel empathy and remorse. They probably do with their own kind. Be that we've never played a Drayk/Drakon, it is hard to tell much about them other than what humans see.

Different cultures have different values. You could say the Drakons are immoral, but that does not make them incable of abstract thought. Connecting the above paragraph, let us suppose you are a Black slave living on a plantation in the US South in 1840. You might see Whites as immoral and lacking empathy from your perspective. This is not necessarily true of course.

Even if I concede the above empathy and remorse are not the only type of abstract thought. Sociopaths can still comprehend advanced mathematics, politics, etc. without having empathy/remorse.

What it boils down to is a logical flaw that if you lack one compnent it necessarily destroys the whole argument. I agree empathy and remorse are part of abstract thought; however, there are many others. Being incable of one does not mean that you are incapable of doing the others in the category.

If a creature is able to comprehend freedom verus slavery, physiology, aerodynamics, etc. I would put them in the ability to understand abstract thought despite lacking a couple others.

quote:
As for fyoras and roamers, I assume they'd be equivalent to dogs, and even though dogs don't have comparable intelligence to us, our possession of that intelligence allows us to think abstractly about pain and suffering and avoid doing anything inherently cruel or malicious to our pets. You can "own" a dog, but that doesn't give you the right to force it to obey whatever command you give it.
True. Being cruel to "lesser" beings is unnecessary and can lead to destructive behavior to others. Now, there is nothing inherently unethical of having animals carry out dangerous tasks or ones that humans are physically not suited to do. Also, raising animals for slaughter is not unethical either.

I would contend, however, that raising humans (or other sentient beings as defined above) just to do for slaughter would be over the line in terms of ethics. As far as doing dangerous tasks, it depends I suppose. If it is incapable of pain/suffering (say a robot) then it may be allowed. This would come down to a case by case basis.

quote:
If serviles deserve the same rights as humans, then all creations deserve teh same rights as natural animals of corresponding intellect. That's the only way I can see that position as logically consistent.
Yes. The fact that we make an animal through genetic engineering or fairie dust does not make that animal inferior or different than other animals. If we make an improved horse, that does not give us the right to be unnecessarily cruel to it.

[ Tuesday, August 08, 2006 20:33: Message edited by: *i ]

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Introducing Leopard in General
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Tuesday, August 8 2006 18:48 Profile #9
My guess is time machine would use advanced compression algorithms and look for duplicates or near matches to minimize the problem. I would also guess that the user could allocate a certain amount of memory to the application so that it does not consume the entire disk space of the computer.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Tuesday, August 8 2006 18:46 Profile #136
quote:
Arent Shapers a religious sort of sect? And religion includes science, politics, AND history.
Depends on how you define religion. Personally I would not consider it one no more than the Green Party is a religion. Granted, they both have dogmatic beliefs, but the goal of neither deals with the "supernatural".

Just remember just because religion may include more aspects under some definitions does not necessarily make it a better way of ascertaining truth. I would contend it can make it worse, because it inherently can lack rigor.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Tuesday, August 8 2006 17:20 Profile #132
Dolphins are capable of some very primitive abstract thought. However, if you try to convey the concepts of free market capitalism, allegory in literature, and the scientific method to one, I doubt you would succeed. Most humans above the age of 8-12 (depends on their development) can at least understand the general ideas behind the above three listed concepts. I doubt they could get all details, but then there are some adults with the same.

I know it's not a firm line, but it should work generally to determine the intelligence/non-intelligence of a certain species, if we were to create such a dichotomy.

As far as mentally challenged individuals, they are just "damaged" subjects of the human species. I don't see how it invalidates the argument as we have to look at the species capabilities as a whole. On one end of the distribution you have the geniuses and the other you have the extreme mentally challenged. Overall you should find that humans meets the above metric whereas dolphins do not.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Ideas for GF 4 in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Tuesday, August 8 2006 04:09 Profile #2
Will not happen.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Monday, August 7 2006 20:20 Profile #130
Just to clarify, souls are entirely a metaphysical thing with no answer that can be independently verified and checked. 99.9% of people may agree on something, but that does not necessarily make them right.

I would not consider dogs to be particularly intelligent, even if they could talk. The reason comes from the ability to understand consequences of actions, this is what I was getting at with self-awareness.

Yes, your dog overeats, and does make "decisions". I use quotes because those decisions are somewhat unlike human decisions. Your dog eats because he is hungry. So do humans, of course, but we are aware (or at least have the potential to be aware) that the consequence of overeating will lead to obesity which in turn leads to more serious problem. I honestly doubt your dog has that capacity.

To understand why other dogs don't overeat, I would attribute that to their physiology. Dogs (even of the same breed) are not identical, some of them will be more predisposed to eat because their body sends signals to tell them to more so than others. Again, this goes back to the same thing I mentioned above that decisions that dogs do are not the same as humans because of the inability to fully appreciate consequences.

Now let's go to the Fryoa that talks. What makes it different than say, a Drayk? Well, it depends on how intellectually developed the Fryoa is. If it has a limited vocabulary to indicate basic needs and that's it, I would consider that Fryoa to be non-intelligent. If, however, it is able to have a conversation about abstract things, then I would put it in the intelligent category.

I guess to boil it down, I would say the capability to understand abstract thought.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Monday, August 7 2006 17:23 Profile #128
quote:
However, what creations lack, are souls. Humans have souls. Which makes us a priority.
And you know this how? Do animals have souls? If so, which ones? What if humans were able to create sentient animals through genetic engineering -- how does one determine if it has they have souls? Who should decide and what objective reasoning can we use to determine if something has a soul and what does not?

Of course, the nature of a soul is one of faith. If I have a religion that believes dolphins have souls, what makes my religion's view on the matter less correct than another.

I hope this illustrates the problem with the soul argument. It goes beyond a value argument, but to a supernatural/theological one. Values are open for debate/discussions, theology on the other hand is not if you start from different assumptions.

quote:
If you feel the creations of human beings are inherently equal to humans themselves, than justify and explain your position.
Now things like Fryoas and Roamers are really not comparable as they lake much in the way of intelligence. However, let's look at things like Serviles or Gazers. Both are obviously capable of free thought and carrying on conversations. In the GF world, they can pretty much do everything humans do minus shaping -- even the Drakons can do that.

My justification is the level of sentience. When a being is intelligent enough to be consciously self-aware, make its own decisions, converse freely, and capable of abstract thought, I'd put that as equivalent to humans.

The one way out of that is to admit a superiority to humans since you are human. Although this argument is somewhat tautological, it is tenable from a values standpoint.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Idea for realsing creations in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Monday, August 7 2006 08:44 Profile #1
quote:
It would be good if you wanted to repoulate an area with rouges say if you want to train your chacter more. Or to harass a very powerful enemy.
I wouldn't have it reward experience. I could also see it being an AI controlled character after releasing it as workable.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Changes in G4 in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Monday, August 7 2006 03:53 Profile #2
Agreed. You need to commit essence to have a creation under your control. This is all in the name of balance.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Sunday, August 6 2006 11:50 Profile #117
quote:
Uuummm. Im not really new to this board. Relative or otherwise. Lol. Even though you are number six and im number like 10,000. I'm not in any way new. to this forum or game. And I wasnt being sexist. I was assumin you were female. I'm slightly sorrowful to you if you arent. i wasnt trying to be mean to a large majority of people. Im rather fond of females. And i wasnt telling anyone to leave, twas merely a suggestion that if you dont like the games, then why talk about it? Lol. And I also was just debating about the moralities of the game. I like debating. Im decent at it. Not great, but i dont suck either.

Now, me replying to your reply, is just defensive, because it seems i offended you in some minor way. Wow, you need some tougher skin. Lol, I'm light hearted, so please dont feel the need of being offended at every other remark. And dont think i dont like you either. I like everybody, just some more than others, lol. Ok, im done now. Bubye.
Personally I don't care one way or another. Your response partially violated the Code of Conduct, not seriously, but enough. I just want it to be clear that posts like that (especially telling members to leave) will not be tolerated, period.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper hypocrisy vs. Shaper tragedy (SPOILERS) in Geneforge Series
*i
The Establishment
Member # 6
 written Saturday, August 5 2006 12:28 Profile #102
quote:
Originally written by Lowbacca:

Wow. Ok. Hows about, you 2 girls stop arguing? kay? Holy Crap. This forum is for talking about the games. Im assuming you both like geneforge, and if you dont like it, then you should leave. And dont be offended by another person you dont even know. It implies that you are immature. And having all CAPS, isnt yelling. If you have all caps AND an "!",then that would be an implication of yelling.
1) Read up on nettiquette, many versions of using CAPS is yelling. We expect our members to follow these rules.
2) Your sexist remarks will not be tolerated.
3) You are not a moderator, we'll worry about the acceptable bounds of discussion.
4) The Geneforge plotline is inherently tied to the morality of the decisions you make and are open for debate, as such the discussion is definitely within fair game.
5) Don't come into this community, a relative newbie, and start preaching and especially telling people to leave the board that you are new to.

[ Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:31: Message edited by: *i ]

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00

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