Profile for Synergy
| Field | Value |
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| Displayed name | Synergy |
| Member number | 6292 |
| Title | Shaper |
| Postcount | 2009 |
| Homepage | |
| Registered | Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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| God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) in General | |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, November 7 2005 10:45
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quote:You’re right about that. I worry frequently how my words “sound”, moreso than simply the content I choose. I can see the sincere heart in you through your words. quote:You know, we do have a God Who appears to have no trouble doing that at the transition of ages, of “dispensations.” New wine bursts old wineskins and all. Why do you assume there are no more such overturnings yet to come in what God wishes to unfold next upon the earth? I did look at the thread of yours over at Desperance. You know, TM, Djur, and others made some very good logical criticisms of the popular heaven and hell doctrines, the same ones many people world round have trouble accepting with the current breed of Christian doctrine they are fed. They are criticisms to which conventional Christianity seems entirely unable to offer any reasonable answers. I didn’t see you offer any, as far as I read. But you are right, there is probably little you could write here or there which I would find new or convincing in way of challenging the view of God as sovereign and outworking the ultimate redemption of all the world. I essentially came through the brand of Christianity you declare (among others). It’s familiar to me and I vomited it up eventually. It simply has no good answers for many of the conundrums and contradictions it creates. God gave me a good mind, and a questioning mind (my Dad used to call me “question box”) that is not content to settle on heinous nonsense just because some “authorities” say it is so. God’s truths are simple, sublime, and easily understood by children. They really do make sense. And they really are good news to all. Because others are reading at least some of all this dialog, it would be helpful to see your doctrinal arguments and defenses (representing evangelical Protestant Christianity) against simple points being made about Bible fallibility, Greek or Hebrew translations of words, or verses about dead from the days of Noah being preached to (rather than being in some eternal torture for dying for their sins way back then). Or even some personal commentary on the simple logic of what love and justice are and demand. Why is it utterly abhorrent and illegal to us for earthly fathers to torture their kids for their misdeeds, but ok when our heavenly Father does it? I’m not talking about discipline or spanking. I’m talking roasting someone alive forever, if that were possible in reality. Which brings me to another ridiculously obvious question. If the dead are tortured by literal fire, how is a spirit/soul body tortured by physical flames? The body is left behind in death. Are ghosts prone to being burned with flames? It’s fine if you don’t feel you have a good or simple answer to the many queries like this I am inclined to put out, but if you feel you do have one, be a dear and please share it? I am really curious what your thought process is like outside rote recitation of doctrinal dictates. What do you think about all these things? Is there a part of you that revulses against the eternal torture doctrine your faith requires you to accept? It is okay if your hubby at some point decides your kids are hopeless reprobates, locks them in the cellar, and has someone burn and torture them for the rest of their lives? Why is it ok when God, perfect in love, does it? How does the punishment fit the crime? (a point one brought up at desperance). quote:That’s fine for you and me. It makes a huge difference for billions of others now living, and scores of billions more who lived and died before them. Seeing and sharing God rightly is of monumental importance, if our task is to bring the rulership of God’s love and truth into fullness in this earth. There are very simple reasons why 2000 years of our current mixture of church doctrines have not accomplished this, even while wielding such great political and moral control of all of Europe for long centuries. It could go on for millions more and never get any further along to establishing the kingdom. quote:I mentioned at least twice in this thread that these are not my own ideas, nor is any of them new. There is nothing new under the sun. In fact, on the issue of the afterlife, eternal torment was not always the prevailing belief in the early days of the pre-Romanized churches. You’d be surprised who throughout history has believed in universal salvation. Some heretic groups who were persecuted in the distant past held some of these very beliefs. Every age has had some who have embraced these “heresies” about the truth of God. In the early 20th century, with the “latter rain” movement, a number of people began to receive this word anew, to believe, write and teach these kinds of revived views of God and His full extent of salvation. It really began to take off in 1906, again in 1948, and especially since the 1970’s. In the 1990’s, these teachings really began to be much more openly embraced even into formerly obstinate denominational churches. What I mean is that even doctrinally-conflicting churches have happily let or invited people teaching these “heresies” in to share them and not chased them out with sticks. At the very least. The word is getting around. The interest has piqued greatly even in my lifetime. Here are a few links to vast resources of many who online have offered such teachings and revelations: http://www.sigler.org/kingdom/page1.html (90 sources alone, Gary Sigler used to live near me.) http://www.sigler.org/eby/ (Preston Eby, from El Paso, Tx, who has been one of the most instrumental sources of my learning and inspiration over many years) http://promiseed.com/ (Stacy Wood and his wife Pamla, whom I have also met and heard teach repeatedly and dearly love) http://www.godfire.net/ (Elwin Roach, from NM) http://tentmaker.org/ (Gary Amirault, a good logician, historian, and researcher) At the end of this post is something I gleaned from the last site, lest you imagine I am alone in my delusions of the grandeur of God. If you want to read even better (and sometimes even more concise) arguments than mine, go poke around with an open and seeking heart. Ask God to show you what is His truth, being willing to lay aside anything which may stand in the way, including former beliefs accepted by many. God likes and rewards that kind of attitude. I have met quite a few of these teachers and all operate in the same kind of spirit of freely giving, and deeply loving others. They are their own best testimony as far as I am concerned. I never saw an organized Church which operated in the same spirit. I have significant stores of writings from numerous teachers on these topics. The fact that it is not an organized church with a creed and a building to point to does not mean there are not many who have had this revelation. It happens for most of us like it does for any spiritual revelation: someone speaks or writes something which we hear or read and it triggers something powerful and compelling in us which makes us hungry and excited. We pray, we seek more, we open our hearts, and God is faithful to open up “new” truths to us, so peaceable and potent, there can be no going back. Why does God permit untold millions over the last 2000 years to believe in lies? For the same reason God has permitted the curse of sin and apostasy in general for far longer. There is a vital, patient lesson for all the world to witness and learn from it all over time. It will be instrumental for us all to ultimately learn to reject self-centeredness, living out of the carnal mind, judging for ourselves what is “good” and what is “evil”—the original sin. The original sin was man became religious-minded essentially, rather than spiritual. He became his own judge with his own unenelightened mind, cut of from the Mind of God. And all kinds of wickedness and suffering and apostasy has resulted ever since. Even Babylon, the harlot, the apostate church of mixture and carnality, was shown in the vision to be a “golden cup” in the Lord’s hand, echoed in OT prophecy as well as the NT: Jer 51:7 Babylon was a golden cup in the LORD's hand, making all the earth drunken; the nations drank of her wine, therefore the nations went mad. (like, I don’t know, convincing them there were witches everywhere to torture and burn)? Re 17:4-5 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication; and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth's abominations." So, the point is, I am not against the churches or history or what has gone before. They have been, despite themselves, their mixtures, their fornications, a golden cup in God’s hand, accomplishing His purposes for this age. I am FOR God and truth and love, not against churches which yet deny and do not yet perceive Him wholly as He is. I argue on behalf of the One I love, so that He may be rightly considered and known. His name has been badly besmirched by many for a long time now. His patience is long. The Spirit leads to the extent that we are willing to follow. The degree to which those who went before stumbled into greater truth reflects merely that, not the sincerity of their hearts, the light they did embrace, the love they had, or the good they did. But there is always more in God, more further up the mountain. It goes as far as we are willing to follow, and the trees get sparser the higher you go, the air rarer...and the view more incredible. I question no one’s heart or sincerity, surely not yours. But it is not an easy thing to learn to surrender our mind to the mind of the Spirit. I have far to go. I consider it a great work of grace on His part that I see any of these joyful, liberating truths, when I could just as easily be camped back in a Church embracing those despairing doctrines of the ultimate victory of satan. There is an opposing and highly seductive force which goes to great means to work against the mind of Spirit, deceiving even the very elect. Please don’t put words in my mouth. Christianity has some very important things wrong in its thinking. I do not say it is “completely wrong” or anything like it. It is mixture—this I have said repeatedly. But we and the world really judge a person or group by its attitude, and care little about its doctrine in itself. That is where the slip of Christianity especially shows: the hearts reflect the doctrine of a Father Who is willing to burn alive billions of His own babies. We become like the God we see...Christians too became willing to burn alive others in the name of God. Let’s not be confused: The Holy Spirit never led anyone into error. Mixing truth the Spirit gives with our own carnal reasoning and old thinking is where we get into all this trouble. It is so pervasive, I think most of us have no real clue what the difference actually is, when it comes down to it. There is more of it in me than I am aware—of that I am aware. quote:Paul spoke of being all things to all people...speaking to them as one of them in their own “language”, if you will. There is a great truth and lesson how God operates in this, yes, I think so too. But I don’t think that explains doctrinal conflicts in the churches or careless or politically-motivated Bible translations. Those come out of mixtures of fleshly thinking, not spiritual enlightenment through the Holy Spirit, except to the degree that “new” revelation to some particular persons led some out from one church to form another. But each new daughter church still carries over numerous other errors from the mother church of centuries past. These also need the corrective light of more revelation and restoration. ... [The following excerpted from Gary Amirault’s Tentmaker site] Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christian Universalism: The belief that everything in heaven and on earth will ulitmately be reconciled back to the Creator through the work of Jesus Christ, his Son. In plain language, no one is going to be endlessly tortured as has been commonly taught. Famous people throughout the centuries who have declared publicly or strongly hinted that they believe all mankind will ultimately be saved. Remember, during most of Church history, openly declaring this belief often cost one their lives. The list includes early Church Fathers and leaders, theologians, scholars, historians, royalty, writers, poets, statesmen, humanitarians, scientists, and other streams of life. While some may not be well known to Americans living in the twentieth century, they are well known in the countries and times in which they lived. These men and women left written evidence behind declaring their views. Behind them stand millions who, while not having left behind a written record of their beliefs on earth, nevertheless, will one day brightly manifest to all creation as a Great Cloud of Witnesses. This list was compiled from several sources among which are: "A Cloud of Witnesses" by J.W. Hanson, first published in 1885 and reprinted by Concordant Publishing Concern; "Mercy and Judgment" by Canon F.W. Farrar, published in 1881; "Christ Triumphant" by Thomas Allin, first published in 1890, reprinted by Concordant Publishing Concern; and "Universal Reconciliation and the Evangelical Covenant Church." Dean Hough, Editor of Unsearchable Riches also contributed greatly to the list. [Note, I, Synergy GREATLY cut this list of many hundreds of names for “brevity’s sake”--ha ha, I know.] * All the Hebrew Prophets who prophesied of the coming of the Messiah * Jesus Christ (John 12:32) * Paul, the Apostle (never used the word "Hell" once) (1 Tim. 4:9-11) * John the Apostle (1 John 4:42) * Pantaenus, first head of catechetical school at Alexandria * Clement of Alexandria, second head of catechetical school at Alexandria * Origen, greatest scholar of the early church * Athenasius, Archbishop of Alexandria * Didymus * Ambrose, Bishop * Ephraim * Chrysostum * Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop * Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop and President of the second Church council * Titus, Bishop of Bostra * Asterius, Bishop of Amasea * Thomas Hobbes * Sir Isaac Newton * William King, Archbishop of Dublin * Thomas Campbell * Horace Smith * Washington Irving * Lord Byron * Lady Byron * Dr. F Hase, professor of theology * Nathaniel Hawthorne * Hans Christian Andersen * John Stuart Mill * Oliver Wendell Holmes * Alfred Tennyson * Horace Greeley * Charles Dickens * Lewis Carroll * James Russel Lowell * Dr. R. A. Lipsins, Prof. of Theology * Walt Whitman * Stopford A. Brooke, chaplain to the Queen * Rev. John Orr, Prof. Biblical Criticism * J. Fenimore Cooper * Victor Hugo * Clara Barton * Christopher Sauer, Bible Publisher * Dr. Benjamin Rush * Abraham Lincoln * Benjamin Franklin, encouraged the first Universalist Church in Philadelphia * George Washington, defended a Universalist chaplain in his army when attacked by "Orthodox" ministers * Rev. Charles A. Pridgeon, President Pittsburgh Bible Institute -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
| Civilization IV in General | |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, November 7 2005 08:51
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Here is a cool walkthrough of an entire game with lots of visuals. Have a look: Civ IV Walkthrough Anyone know when this thing's due out for Mac? -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
| God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) in General | |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, November 7 2005 03:38
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Oops, sorry for the double-post...not intentional. quote:This may be, but both are offered from a plainly limited perspective of spiritual understanding. Or is the following the reason God is saying He put us on earth and gave us life? Eccl 2:24 There is nothing better for a man than that he should eat and drink, and find enjoyment in his toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God; This is a great perspective to have, and I wish more Christians had such a pastorially joyful approach to life and pleasure, but it still falls short of the higher reason we are here revealed in our calling on behalf of love outward to others, and not merely to indulge our own pleasures to satisfaction. Additionally, when you quoted before that the grave is our end and there is no more conscioussness or existence afterwards, which view of life do you assign that to...the vain view or the worthwhile view? Why? “Turn that frown upside down!” :\ now equals :/ ? [ Monday, November 07, 2005 03:55: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
| God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) in General | |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, November 7 2005 03:27
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quote:I don’t expect you to chew through my many words to find out, but I will state that my love and focus is for our Father, Who I know as the Source of our life, our purpose, and the existence of love in this universe. I trust enough in His nature to feel it is not only worthwhile, but highly desirable to live out of the principles of love and to see and treat my fellow brothers and sisters in the world through eyes of love, which Jesus demonstrated well. I stated somewhere that I see Jesus no more or less “divine” than any other child of God, but He demonstrated something He entered into first and was given the authority to continue dispensing that calling and life to the rest of us, who in turn are called to dispense it to the world after His fashion and in the same Spirit He did it. The means of the salvation of God are through human engagement and intercession here and now. So, I see your motivations and values being highly in line with what Jesus was all about, as you state. Jesus never stated He was God or another God, or the second expression of three of God. He simply said over and over that he was the son of man. He’s one of US, and that is precisely why we have hope by his example. quote:Well, that’s another perspective you have in common with Jesus: John 14: 12 In most solemn truth I tell you that he who trusts in me--the things which I do he shall do also; and greater things than these he shall do, because I am going to the Father. If that wasn’t an exhortation and invitation to step up to the plate... quote:I think you’re really onto it. Because Christendom is so focused on eternal reward/eternal punishment and how perpetually sinfully unworthy we all are, they really have been left with little to do with this life and world other than to acquire as many blessings for themselves while here (to make this rather pointless life more tolerable till its over) and to make intermittent stabs at scaring or cajoling others to adopt their faith so they too can avoid an unthinkable fate. But Jesus talked incessantly about establishing a kingdom with privileges and rewards, with the purpose of blessing the earth through a rulership of the principles of love right here on earth. It’s all centered here on earth, and not in some murky, lazy hereafter. What a victory for an “adversary”, to get people so caught up on afterlife that they don’t believe in the critically vital work we are called to do here and now. [ Monday, November 07, 2005 03:53: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
| God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) in General | |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 23:56
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It's oddly appropriate seeing Divine Aid and Warrior in here—our beloved Exile/Avernum games carry over much Christian symbolism with priests who both Bless and call down Divine Fire. quote:Riibu, you are quoting Ecclesiastes. So you would say that this poetic writing (possibly or possibly not by Solomon) is a viewpoint offered by God, rather than stating man’s view of himself “under the sun” apart from any inkling of his spiritual nature or the existence of God. The voice in Ecclesiastes over and over says, “All is vanity!” So, is all of life vanity? Is it better as the author suggests, that we had never been born at all, than to be born and suffer? Look at the book and its “wisdom.” It greatly contradicts truths we know about the nature of God and man and our purpose in being. It’s downright bleak and depressing. It’s a great piece of prose making its point from an intended perspective, however. This is what I mean when I say we have to look at the inspiration of scriptures from a contextual point of view and from one of spiritual understanding. I have no problem believing that there is Divine Inspiration underlying any or all of the books we have in the Bible. If so, Ecclesiastes was divinely inspired to tell us a lie from the point of view of godless man, that all is vanity and men are no better than beasts who also live and go to their end in the grave. It makes a point, if we can be wise enough to rightly divide it, what voice speaks it to us, and for what purpose it is speaking. It is plainly not the voice of God speaking to us to instruct us. Yet that is exactly what the Divine Word of God theory of scripture would have us believe everything in the Bible must be. Ec 3:19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. quote:It’s amusing you to call me that, isn’t it, DP? ;) quote:No, you said as much. The “you” was generic. I’ll bet, however, there are a few things you’d be less likely to hesitate doing (or feel bad about doing). quote:Torment...”touchstoning”—the process of testing gold for its purity? Au contraire, my good man, no one gets in without passing the purity test for refined gold . Salvation (from the wages of sin) is freely given to all. Overcoming, entering the Kingdom, being granted a place of authority in God, is given to those who finish the race to receive the crown. quote:Then you simply would not have yet received a revelation of Who your Father is and why He is so wholly loveable and embraceable to the degree you’d give up anything for relationship with Him and to even die for Him. That’s love. We change how we live because we love someone. Ask any happily married couple. And we live by the inner law of love because we agree with its principles and its blessings, not only to ourselves, but to many others about us. When we gain a sense of accountability, not for only our own precious personal fate and how much we may suffer, but on behalf of all suffering humanity about us, we are convicted by the ways of love which bring life, healing and reconnection, rather than the ways of self-serving which steal the life of others for our own interests. Happily, the burden is not placed on us to strive to keep a law of love through our own inconsistent and frustrating efforts. The real grace of God is that He enlivens His Spirit within us to give us a new heart and a new nature that naturally does the things of love, and is able to achieve them: Phil 2:13 For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire. Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right spirit within me. Eze 36:26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 2Co 3:3 and you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. This to me is beautifully related to the promise: Phil 2:5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus It is a letting, a permitting, a surrendering to process, rather than something we strive to enforce or control within ourselves. The old Law/Covenant was about wrestling with a carnal nature to keep a set of rules all were guilty under. The new Law/Covenant of Christ is that He will enter into our hearts, make them new, write new laws upon them, and we will take a new mind and heart and live out of them naturally. This process is not automatic, as DP might seem to think I mean. We have to first believe it works this way and be an accomplice to the process through much learning and working of Christ in us to teach us to live out of the new nature and mind and cease turning to the old carnal ways of thinking and doing. In Romans 7, Paul laments the battle between the two minds, the two natures within him as he underwent this spiritual changing. Rom 7:22 -25 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! What is Paul so thankful about after making that statement? (Here also is a clue about what death is all about for the spiritually-minded...it has little to do with being physically alive or dead). Paul goes on in Romans 8 to rejoice that there is ”now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”. We are no longer condemned for our flesh life and its lingering behaviors, but we are exhorted to seek after the new life and nature which puts the old nature to death in time. To chase the dark out of a room, you neither curse the darkness nor strive to make it leave. You simply...turn on the light. The means are a positive which overcomes the negative. The means are the Law of life which Christ enacts in us which overcomes the law of sin and death. Christianity with its sin consciousness has become negatively focused, darkness focused. It gives too little credit and professes too little faith in the redemptive, victorious workings of Christ to overcome sin, darkness, and death in any of us, let alone ultimately all of us. A seed grows into a plant or tree because of the law of life within it. By same virture, the law of Life which Christ plants in our spirits is promised to grow into what its spiritual genetics predetermine. We have to remain in that which nurtures that life, so it continues to grow. The milk which churches typically offer the believer, are not going to promote growth past a certain state of infantile dependency, which is in their self-interest, though I doubt they’d consciously think of it that way. ... Gizmo, thanks for taking some more time to respond. I am disappointed that you continue to not engage the actual nuts and bolts of the many points upon which we see differently—whether it is the absence of hell in the OT and what that implies, or that Jesus preached the gospel to the wicked from Noah’s day in the grave, or many other points I have made with scriptural support. I wish you would show me how the perspectives I derive from our same scriptures are wrong by using the same passages (and others) and explaining them in a more sensible light, and not merely naysay what I have said by saying that I am wrong. I believe we should know moreso WHY we believe what we believe than merely what it is we believe. quote:This is true, but it is also ultimately wonderfully and joyfully liberating. You cannot rise up on wings like eagles inside a box. quote:Whose “correct” thinking is that? In whom have you placed your trust to know “correctness”? The traditions of your church and the men who have formed it over centuries, carrying medieval and ancient world pagan ideas and interpretations with them? And if the Holy Spirit speaks above and beyond the traditions of your men, what then? What if someone anointed by the Father comes along and accuses such men of being whited sepulchres, full of dead mens’ bones? Because I suggest that Jesus lives via Holy Spirit in many in this day, and many are speaking against the traditions of religious men who have long rendered the gospel of “none effect”. If you automatically dispel any who come and say, “repent” (literally means “take a new mind”), “for we have been seeing a truer vision of our God”, then you risk resisting a working of the Holy Spirit in this day and the benefits offered. Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 1Jo 2:27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him. The Holy Spirit trumps the teachings of men. This includes anything I write and anything any system of belief or denomination teaches. If we do not know how to divide truth and error by the working of the Spirit in us, as the new Mind and Head in us, then we are prey to any possible delusion. My whole point for “arguing” a view of God not embraced by the majority today is so that any who are hungry for something more and who are open to God’s revelation and changing of even their cherished beliefs, can ask the Holy Spirit to confirm and reveal the truth (or error) of any such things that intrigue—or threaten. Logic and rationale and persuasion may create enough doubt or interest or hope to inspire someone to take it before God within as Spirit for examination. quote:I’m well aware that this is your stance. What you have repeatedly declined to offer me is upon what you base this blind belief and requirement. It’s not in the Bible that we were to be given a Bible and it was to be what you claim it is. Again I challenge you, what do you base your absolute faith in 66 disparate, gathered writings and their translations upon? quote:So “sin” is in flesh and blood and not the heart and attitude? Why did Jesus say to feel anger toward your brother in your heart is that same sin as to murder him? What about the blood Jesus’ foetus received from the placenta of Mary, who was born into sin? Wouldn’t that have contaminated Jesus with sin? Please answer these basic questions. I want to hear your explanations besides, “it’s the faith of my denomination—it must be correct”. Do you realize how many times Jesus referred to Himself as the “Son of man”? Dozens. How many times does He call Himself the Son of God? Never directly. (Oh, the benefits of Bible software, for I learned something new today). Others, including devils, have called Him that, but He never assigned it to Himself. I’m not making any particular implication by that fact other than Jesus identified Himself with humanity, while others sought to focus on their perceived deification of Him. quote:Again I ask, what of those in China or the isles of the Pacific, or the Americans north and south in all those years B.C., while Israel and no other had the Law and its rituals? Did they all go to hell for never having being offered the ways of Israel under the law, never mind a future gospel and a “choice for Jesus”? This isn’t being offered for hypothetical musing. I want to hear your explanation. If you are going to be an administrator of the gospel of God to others in this world, you’d better be prepared to be able to answer such questions, because people care about these things and what they say about the God they are being asked to accept and trust. What is the purpose of our Father’s “punishment”? Would it interest you to know that there are six uses of the word “punishment” in the NT, but many scores of uses of the word “judgment” of God? Judgment comes from the Greek word “krisis” which means a separating point, a deciding point, a turning point. A judgment can be favorable or unfavorable. What are the purposes of God’s judgments? Isa 26:9 My soul yearns for thee in the night, my spirit within me earnestly seeks thee. For when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. This does not mean that the judgments of God are not terrible to endure. But righteousness is learned as a result. The popular view of God today is that He capriciously and angrily punishes His children to no end and to no correction. Sad, wretched, impotent God such have, a God plagued with the cold-hearted behavior of only the worst earthly fathers who beat and torture their own children and lock them in cages to rot. No one on earth calls such behavior “love” or “justice.” In fact, we put such people in prison. But we assign such behavior to our Father of “love and justice” and somehow live with Him and with ourselves. Such a God is not even Biblical, as it happens to be, and as I have already been making arguments with many scriptures to show, and have some more yet to demonstrate. quote:I don’t suppose you find it amusing that I jokingly refer to organized Christianity today as the “cult of Book Worship”? ...I didn’t think so. Oh well. I can’t recall Christians being recently accused of having a sense of humor about themselves. I think we all need to take a good regular look and laugh at ourselves. quote:Ironic you should mention this. Who is it who berates its population with obligations to an Old Testament law which is done away with (the tithe)? Who passes a plate in its services so all may see who gives and who does not give openly? Who finds infinite ways to manipulate with greed and fear to separate its patrons from their money on behalf of the “Kingdom of Church”? What beautifully resonates with those many I have known who teach the salvation of all and a God of purpose and victory, is that they do NOT require payment for their materials or services. They freely give out to any who request and survive on any volunteered donations. So many I have known have operated on this Godly principle of “freely have you received, freely give.” The beauty of the Spirit operating in such ministry is in harmony with its teaching. It speaks loudly for itself without uttering a word. quote:Too bad God couldn’t actually be that sweet, huh? I guess human beings can think up much better and more beautiful universes than Almighty, All-loving, All-knowing, All-purposeful God. quote:1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love. It sounds to me like such fear can only come from a place of insecurity. I fear the words of no one, because I know I have the Holy Spirit to take all things before to rightly divide and not lead me astray. It may take time, but He is faithful. I am not upset that these words are seen as dangerous though. You are right. They are dangerous to the organized church systems which have kept vast populations of believers in fear and craven devotion and monetary supplication for so long. Something is coming forth in this earth to bring judgment to the house of God. 1Pe 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? God judges His own before He judges the world. He comes as Refiner’s Fire to those who proclaim His Name in the earth. What will be burned? What will remain? Who is Mystery Babylon and what is her fate? Mark 9:49-50 For every one will be salted with fire. Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its saltness, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another." Methinks that Christianity—which began with tongues of Holy Spirit fire salting those in an upper room in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, and which caught on like wildfire, even to the point where believers were willing to be Nero’s human torches for their faith—methinks this Christianity has lost its saltiness and has ceased to be palatable to the masses. I see a world increasingly spitting the vile mixture out of its mouth, if anything. You might be amazed to see that early church doctrinal belief dominantly did not include belief in eternal punishment, by the way. That may have had a little something to do with the gospel being called “good news” back then. quote:I could not have said this better myself. quote:And what if organized Christianity has been functioning as the false prophet—giving false view of God to the earth for many long centuries, finally to be brought to judgment? Any wise person has to consider the “what ifs”...the possibilities. I assure you it is well within the range of possibility...and likelihood. Where do you think the “angel of light” wants to masquerade? On the periphery with the weirdos and outcasts of religious belief? Or right in the heart of Christendom in the most organized and long-established systems of faith and power in the earth? Babylon the Great is drunk with the wine of her fornications with all the kings of the earth. She has wielded considerable power and influence and reputation among the nations. For the fun of it, I am going to separately look at antichrist later though. It’s a brief, but illuminating little study. quote:You place your trust well in Him Who tests all our hearts and works with fire: How about your Father, to whom Jesus prayed? You believe in Jesus, the Nice Guy, Who died for you (once for all), but do you believe in your Father, who you believe will charbroil you forever if you neglect to receive this gift Jesus offers? It is little wonder to me Christians are so in love with Jesus, but have little to do with God as Father, because the Father they have is downright frightful and not someone anyone in their right mind would want to trust or embrace. quote:This is another one of those extra-Biblical terms which grates on my ears. It has no special meaning, except that it detracts from the universal aspect of salvation and brings it to a me me me centered focus. MY PERSONAL savior, (but maybe not yours). But I understand your sentiment, even if I dislike the semantics. I’m not worried about you or your faith, Gizmo. I trust in the working of the Holy Spirit to bring us all into correction and revelation of truth, and of Who He is, in due time, this side of heaven, hell, or the grave, or another. quote:He is both Brother and Savior, and I believe that is exactly what He is in the business of doing, working on the collection in full for the price He paid for all the world—once for all. The Father handed Him the keys to death and hell, and gave Him full authority. I trust Him to carry out His intentions with that full authority. Re 1:18 I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. So, we can’t absolve loving Jesus from eternal tortures of billions either, ‘cuz He’s the one with the keys (to open the locks/form solutions to set the captives free from death and hell). ... The bottom line of what you are saying to me, Gizmo, is that if the threat of eternal punishment is removed, that there is then nothing left to compel anyone toward God or to cause souls to serve Him out of love and devotion. Is God not loveworthy enough to merit such freely-given devotion and affection? How is it that fear, which is cast out by perfect love, is the only effective motivator to scare us into perfect love of our Father? Does this really make sense to you? In real life, we don’t put up with this nonsense. We rightfully call a tyrant anyone who bullies and demands servitude and “love” through threat of torture. But in religion, we call this love and justice of God. Thank God that the love and justice of that devil-god is not found in the Kingdom of God which is due to swallow up all the earth. Such an earth would be a nightmare world of horrors. The torture chambers of Saddam Hussein, Augusto Pinochet, Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, The Inquisitors (read Malleus Maleficarum for a lovely view of what traditions of men lead them to do in the name of God), Emperor Nero, and countless other tyrants of the past would pale in comparison to the “loving judgements” wielded by the Father God of Christendom. [ Monday, November 07, 2005 02:53: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, November 5 2005 11:44
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Hey, thanks for that Saunders. I don't need to know what your beliefs may be, but it's good to know that something I'm writing is worth some contemplation. I wish everyone who has any belief system about God, would be willing to at least consider that the very nature of humankind has been to take spiritual things and twist and lower them with earthly thinking. Scripture sure made a good point of it when Paul talked about two entirely different minds working in us. Which means so many of our various views on the nature of God, His purposes, and who we are are easily skewed. I think we'd do well to keep an open mind that there may be much God wishes to correct in our thinking, but it may not be readily available in organized religious belief systems. It amazes me how fearful it seems to be to come to the realization that some cherished belief has been in error, even if it is heinous and would be wonderful to be proven wrong. It is so hard for so many of us to really believe God could be as masterful and wise and good as He truly is. Partly because we haven't seen where it's all going yet, and life and the world is still quite messy and painful. But it's all part of the necessary process to get where we are all going, and we are all going to go there together. No one gets left behind. No "Home Alone" scenarios in God's house in the end. I'll be writing something on "eternity" in the Bible next—maybe later today—because it really completes the picture I've been painting (with a thousand words). -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, November 5 2005 04:28
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I can see I've entered upon sacred territory. All right, I'm not unreasonable, you've convinced me. Obviously there is great sentimental value to this never-dying thread. It is fun to stir the pot and see what bubbles up in the fetid stew of the undead. Mischief managed. -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Friday, November 4 2005 13:53
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quote:Is that what the Sheol, what the Hades, what the Gehenna, or what the Tartaros am I doing on your thread? Actually, I was just tugging at it to see what it's attached to. -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Friday, November 4 2005 09:39
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Desert P. Not what I’m saying at all. If you want to enter into the kingdom of heaven you have to enter into the fire that is God. No free admission for anyone. You have to be wholly transformed and renewed and it is an intensive and lengthy process. The fact that Christ has determined to collect in full on the salvation He bought for all doesn't change the means necessary to bring everyone into it. Only the scope of His work is changed to include all and not some. Why is that difficult to comprehend? God has no trouble accosting a murderer of Christians on the road to get his attention, if it’s His choice for that man’s way to come into a new awareness of Him. Is it coercion? Nope. But it’s highly persuasive. Some are persuaded by gentle wooing, and some are persuaded with a two-by-four to the back of the head. Whatever it takes to break the horse or the stubborn will of the rebellious child. All that is darkness and death and sin must be removed from the heart, including the heart of the “saved believer”. He says He will save each man in his own order. He has to do a lot of work in us to make us a completely new creation. Belief in Him and His payment for our sin is just the very beginning of the “salvation” process. Any good Father raising children holds them in a firm grip of wise discipline along with the free flow of the love, affection, and gifts. Because God is love does not mean His disciplines will not be painful or protracted when necessary to get our attention and to correct us. Just because God is not going to bbq you forever if you don’t catch the boat, doesn’t mean you aren’t going to endure severe trials. Look at the price the Jews have been paying for the last 2000 years. God’s judgements can be truly terrible to endure. The thing is, that they are ultimately unto correction and life, not death and destruction and surrender to the adversary in capitulation. God is patient in His outworkings and inworkings. He’s permitted 2000 years of gross mixture and outright apostasy in the churches. There’s a lesson we’ll eventually all get from that in hindsight too. Some people will take a long time to learn their lessons and put their former ways behind them. But God has all the means necessary to discipline, correct, judge, and redeem any person, no matter how reprobate. So much of the reason so much of humankind has not been keen on embracing its Father is because the view they have been given of that Father is hopelessly conflicted and even revulsive. Who can blame them for rejecting a “gospel” which is precious little good news at all? When God is rightly seen for Who He is, He becomes much more attractive. If the penalty of eternal torture is removed from you, and the result is that you immediately wish to go out and sow to the flesh and live selfishly, and trample on others, then you have never been serving God out of love or loyalty in the first place, and you have no love for righteousness. You have merely been avoiding punishment out of self-interest. That’s not the kind of family God fashions or the kind of person given authority in His kingdom. Sin falls away from us, because we have learned the principles of why it is not desirable or worthwhile. It loses its lustre. So if it’s in your heart to go reap to the wind, you’d better go do it and get it over with, because you aren’t fooling God with outward behavior when your heart’s not really in it. It makes me chuckle how this exact response you gave is the one most Christians always immediately come back with when you try to take their hell away from them. All they can see is there is no longer reason not to sin, nor restraint from doing so. Does God wish to motivate us with fear of a negative or hope and belief and pleasure in a positive? We have every reason not to sin. The wages of sin is death. We reap what we sow. The ways of love are peaceable and life-giving, and exponentially rewarding. I love God because I believe in Who and what He is, and that the ways of love are a truly wonderful and desirable thing. EDIT: Reworked [ Friday, November 04, 2005 14:24: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 22:08
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Attention span...waning, Lifeblood...draining, Must...return to...nicknaming. quote:tl, dr [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 22:11: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 20:42
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Thanks, Kel. And is there anything one CAN'T find in Wilkipedia? I'm seeing a common theme about Tartarus: "As a place so far from the sun and so deep in the earth, Tartarus is hemmed in by 3 layers of night, which surrounds a bronze wall which in turn encompasses Tartarus." "The gods of Olympus eventually defeated the Titans and they were cast into Tartarus. They were guarded by giants, each with 50 enormous heads and 100 strong arms, who were called Hecatonchires." "In Roman mythology, Tartarus is the place where sinners are sent. Virgil describes it in the Aeneid as a gigantic place, surrounded by the flaming river Phlegethon and triple walls to avoid sinners escaping from it." A recurring theme is that it is a place of holding, strongly protected or guarded against escape. This is the point of Peter in using the term, to show the imprisonment and taking of functional power from corrupt messengers of God where they are held until judgement. 2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment; Young’s Literal Translation-For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved, [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 20:49: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 20:23
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quote:It would? It's taking up 745 posts worth of space over someone perpetually tinkering with his nickname ad nauseum. It would be an act of mercy to lay it to rest. Or is this the kind of thread SW considers worthy of keeping around for perpetuity? TM, here's a new nick for your next flight of whim: Total Megalomaniac. [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 20:29: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 18:57
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Names are wonderfully meaningful things in scripture. Just as there are myriad nameable qualities of God summed up as “love”, God has many titles attributed to Himself, all to tell us something of His nature and intentions. So, as others have pointed out, JHVH is the primary OT name, the “I am that I am” (which can more meaningfully be constructed as something like “I will be as I choose to appear to be, or what pleases me to be”—and suggests His ability to appear in many forms and for many reasons in many different times and places, suited to the need and the purpose of His revelation of Himself. In Semitic culture, a name was equivalent to a nature, not just a label. Your name said something vital about who you are, which is why names were changed as natures and roles changed. Jacob became Israel. Ge 32:28 Then he said, "Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed." The name is nature. When something is done “in the name of Jesus”, it is not talking about magically invoking something by speaking the name. It simply means, doing the thing in the nature of Jesus, by the same spirit Jesus did it. Ac 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Names are important in the times of the writing of scriptures. Today for most of us, they are not especially personally significant to who we are. Here at Spiderweb we can choose our own names, so moreso than in real life, our names can reflect something we wish to say about who we are. Riibu, if there is no continuation of soul or spirit after physical death, how is it that Lazarus, who had been dead long enough to stink, came back to life? Wouldn't his spirit have ceased to exist upon the moment of his death? Was he a zombie, with no soul? What of the wicked deceased, “in prison” from the days of Noah, whom Christ preached the gospel to (passages quoted earlier in this thread)? It is interesting to me that the view of heaven/hell you seem to be alluding to are much more in line with what I have come to understand as well—that they are not literal places. In that sense, I don’t see some separate parallel afterlife. We are meant to inhabit a body, an incorruptible body, which is some kind of fusion of body and spirit which Christ demonstrated after His resurrection. God’s arena of experience for us is this earth. How that could tie into our role after physical death or spiritual perfecting and in the kind of body Christ showed us is another discussion. I think it is clear there is much yet to come in the ongoing outworking of Gods plans for the ages. We ain’t seen nuthin’ yet. I'm curious what you and JW’s do believe about hell, Riibu. It certainly does exist in some aspect, as it is mentioned repeatedly in scriptures. What it refers to is what is open to examination. That’s what I want to put on the table now—a more positive and God-consistent view of hell and fire in scripture. There are four words in the Bible which King James translated “hell.” In the OT, there is only Sheol, the Hebrew word for the grave. In the NT, in Greek, the grave is referred to as Hades, and appears frequently as “hell”. It is only the realm of the dead, however, with no implication of consciousness or experience there. For instance, “lucifer”, the day star, king of Babylon, in a propechy in Isaiah 14 is a man cut down and dragged into Sheol, the grave. He died like any other man. There is no afterlife of fire or punishment in all the OT at all. Seems like a strange omission for such a desperately critical fate to avoid, for such a perilous risk for so many to face. God didn’t care to warn the many millions or billions of souls in the years B.C. about the threat of eternal torture if they didn’t follow the Hebrew Law? Or was there never any hope for those who died B.C., because the Christ had not yet come? Was the price He paid for sin through all time in both directions, or only from that point onwards? Scripture says He was “the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.” The provision was made long before Jesus ever came. What changed was our awareness of and invitation into that provision. So, how did OT people avoid hell? We do have a God in the OT who laid down a law with an “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” sense of justice. God determined it was just to let the punishment fit the crime, something many civilizations adhere to in their pursuit of justice to this day. Jehovah had serious problems with the followers of Molech, who offered their own babies as burnt offerings. Le 18:21 You shall not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. Jer 32:35 They built the high places of Ba'al in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. God said it didn’t enter into HIS mind to commit the abomination of offering babies to the fire in sacrifice. Yet, this somehow comes to be, in the believer’s thinking, EXACTLY what God Himself comes to do or permit to be done to His own children by the billions. Moreover, what seems like a worthy punishment for a mere life of selfish living or even living a pretty nice life, but not happening to “say a sinner’s prayer” at sometime in your life in order to be “saved”? Eternal fiery torture? Would it even be justice to torture a person for the endurance of the period of time they had lived? Would it be justice to burn them alive for a whole day? Would it be in your own heart of limited mercy to do this to billions of human beings and call it justice? Do you assign less mercy and goodness and redemptive ability to the Divine Judge than you yourself possess? I think not. What conceit Christianity has fostered, lowering God to the status of tyrant and bully beneath the ability of their own hearts of mixture, wielding a God Who uses sheer terror of torture (literally, during the Inquisistion) to scare people into the kingdom. All the torturers and burners of history were more merciful than God that in sooner or later, they put their victims to death and escape from pain. But no, your loving Father will abandon YOU to eternal torture of the greatest pain, because He loves you so much and this is the only fit justice for horrible wicked you. Such a joyful place “heaven” must be, knowing that billions of your own families and friends and loved ones are being burned alive every second you romp through celestial flower-filled fields eating grapes. No, no, no more silliness and impossible contradictions. Let the punishment fit the crime is God’s determination for how His justice works. Eternal torture is not even remotely a just treatment for a life of carnality and selfishness, let alone, one of mere ignorance. I’m pretty sure the Chinese and Australian aborigines in 1000 B.C. really had no way to consider partaking of the Jewish ritual system in order to be “brought into the fold” and acquire attonement from sin by slaughtering animals in the temple in Jerusalem. What kind of omnipotent and omniscient God of love and purpose sets up such a fatally-flawed scenario? What omnipotent and wise and loving God could permit anything to steal away His own purposes in creation? Who’s the Boss around here, anyway? So much for hell in the OT. It makes no possible logical sense in the terms of justice for most of the world far out of reach of Palestine and its blessed enlightenment. It makes no sense in order for the punishment to fit the crime. And it just doesn’t even happen to exist in all the OT scripture. Oops. So, where does hell come from? Well, as it is now taught literally by Christendom, it is almost exactly what the Egyptians and Assyrians and other pagans believed they faced in the afterlife: fiery torments for the wicked, and physical indulgences for the good. Christianity has embraced the unenlightened doctrines of the pagans in their understanding of God and His agents. When God speaks in terms of fire and fiery judgements, the pagan-minded people of the era dragged another beautiful spiritual symbol down into literal fires and literal fears. Trust me. God is a better God than to emulate the wretched fears of cruel pagans who skinned their captives alive, impaled them on spikes, buggered their fallen foes on the battlefied after a battle, and burnt their children alive to appease their gods. So what does God have to do with fire? Heb 12:28-29 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire. God Himself is a consuming fire. The Holy Spirit appeared as tongues of fire over the heads of the anointed on the day of Pentecost. The angelic seraphim are seen to be ministers of fire, used to purify: Isa 6:6-7 Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar.And he touched my mouth, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven." So, if God is a consuming fire, what does the fire that He is consume? All that is not gold. All that is not incorruptible and pure (gold does not tarnish/rust). We must be purified of the dross in our hearts, our souls. All that is carnal and stands in the way of living out of the spirit of love, joy and peace found in Him. All that is wicked, selfish, hurtful, and keeps us from Life. All that keeps us from being able ministers of the life, love, and truth of God to others. If you want to serve, if you want authority in the kingdom of God, it is trial by fire for you. Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap; Mal 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD. This is a of course a prophecy addressing the sons of Levi. The Levites were the priests in Israel, and the foreshadow of those who are called to be ministers (that’s conceivably any of us) of the life of God. In Revelation, a book full of fiery workings of God, we see that those who are overcomers are to be priests of God, ministering priestly blessing with authority in the earth as a result. In order to be a fit priest, you will have to be refined with the fires of God. In the Revelation, we see a lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone. Back in the Greek world in which this picture was written into words, there would have been little confusion as to the purpose of this lake of fire. In Greek temples, fire and brimstone were used to purify divine temple vessels and instruments. Brimstone is sulfur, a purifying agent that can also be used to cleanse wounds (though it hurts like hell to do so). Fire and brimstone = “divine purification”. That which is to be divinely purified goes through fire and brimstone to be cleansed and deemed worthy to serve in the temple. So, what do we have for “hell” in the NT? We have Hades, the realm of the grave and unperception; we have one time only the Greek word “tartaroo” which is a place of holding, awaiting judgement. KELANDON: would you provide some info on “tartaroo”, translated “hell” in some versions of this passage: 2Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment; And we have “gehenna” which was the place in the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem where trash was burned. This is the word Jesus mostly used when warning people about the fires of “hell.” It suggests a place where trash is burned out of us, because I can assure you that our Father considers none of His children, no matter how wayard, to BE trash to be burned into obliteration. It did not enter into Jehovah’s mind to offer the children of Israel to be sacrificed in fire. In old English, “hell” simply meant a hidden place, where you hide something or go to hide. “Helling your potatoes” meant turning them back under the earth. This is a very abbreviated peek at hell. For it to really start coming together, it helps to look at the numerous scriptures which contain the word in some English translations, and see which term is being used. Is it talking about the grave (death and unknowing), about a place of fiery destruction of garbage (gehenna), or a place of holding a prisoner in a cell until a judgement is rendered? I noted in my last post that death is to be destroyed in the end and that death and hell are cast in the end of the Revelation into a lake of fire and brimstone—divine purification. The result is death is done away with. The wages of sin are stated to be death, not “everlasting torture in fires of hell”. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Death and hell are two different things cast into the lake of fire. So death does not equal hell. And the wages of sin is death, not hell. Perhaps hell’s purpose is something other than endless punishment for dying in your sins. Re 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. Re 21:4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more... So, as death is done away with by the working of God’s divine purifcation symbolized by this lake of fire, sin has somehow been done away with in the process, because if there were sin remaining, its wages would be death. It is also highly useful to realize that the word translated “tormented” (used in association with suffering in hell) is a Greek word which literally means “touchstoned.” A touchstone was a stone used to test gold to verify that it is actually gold. “The touchstone is the key to understanding divine judgment. We are to become as gold refined in fire.” We can see that none of us who wishes to enter into God, can avoid the purifying and testing fires and the touchstoning process to determine if we are yet purified gold: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, the LORD is my God" (Zechariah 13:9). "…you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:6-7). "I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich…" (Revelation 3:18). We see God continually represents Himself and His refining processes as being of that of fire purifying gold and silver. Fire is not to be feared. It is to be embraced. Embrace the flame. The flame rids us of what we wish to shed and leaves us with gold which is that which is divine and incorruptible. God is a consuming fire. If you are afraid of the fire, then you are afraid to enter into God and of being changed. Yes, the processes in our lives can be painful and bitter. Fire does hurt that which can be hurt by fire. It will cause loss and destruction. It’s the price we pay to attain incorruption (a place where we cannot be corrupted by any influence any longer). And it’s not literal, just as you and I are not literal bars of gold and God is not literally a figure of flames somewhere off in the sky. Isn’t it time the children of God put aside wretched and fearful pagan perceptions? 2 Peter 2:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. This sounds like a natural cataclysm, but we can remember that God is concerned with spiritual conditions, and that heavens and earths are symbols of inner microcosms of our being and the collective realm of those things for all humankind. We see that ultimately all things are to go through the transforming and refining fires of God Who will make all things new through the process. A new heavens is a new kind of rulership (spiritual) within us. A new earth is a newly reformed soul and body to reflect the life of the spirit. The outer world will also no doubt change to reflect the change of its inhabitants. God is fervent heat. The “wrath” of the Lamb is the fervent jealous desire over His possession. It will consume all that stands in the way of its rightful property..which is us. 1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. We are not destroyed by the fire, we are saved by and through it. Shadrack, Meschack, and Abedniggo in the firery furnace...only their bonds were destroyed in the fire, but they survived, and a fourth appeared in the fire with them, a “son of the gods.” The Son of God is with us in the fiery trial. Can anyone tear this all down and show me that the fires of God are not to redemption and purification, but for the “just” torture for all the unbelievers and resisters to the love of God? Can you reconcile a God Who called the fires of child sacrifice to Molech an “abomination” with a God Christians believe will roast billions of His own babies in the fires of His own creation run amok? You can’t push it off onto a “satan”. That is entirely extra-biblical. There is no association of satan with fire. God is the One associated continually with fire. God comes for us with refining fire. It wouldn’t matter either way, however. God is the sovereign captain of the ship of all His creation, including the “adversary” of His creation. Isa 45:6-7 I am Jehovah, and there is none else; forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things. De 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Mighty God is in control of all agencies of His creation. They serve Him. He is master of life and death, peace and evil, wounding and healing, all powers and principalities in heavens and in earth. We are not to fear any adversary. “Satan” literally means “adversary”, by the way. It is not a name, just a word. That would be another good discussion: satan, devils, demons, and angels. Lots of silly extra-biblical superstitions mixed in with those terms too, which should not surprise us. I will get to the “eternal” nature of hell and torment next. I’m of course curious to hear how this look at fire and hell strikes anyone who is interested. And this is a severe distillation of many detailed writings and expositions on the matter I could refer one to. [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 20:09: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
| God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) in General | |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Wednesday, November 2 2005 18:27
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quote:I’ll state again that I am not a great original thinker or researcher. These are not my own ideas. Others have done great research, study, and spiritual seeking to begin restoring a lot of this vision to the scriptures. These aren’t new ideas either. They’ve just always been outside the organized church doctrinal slants. What happened to me is that after a childhood of various unsatisfying Protestant church experiences, I saw too much confusion and hypocrisy in the churches and blew them off in my mid teens. I still knew there was a God. I no longer knew how this Bible thing fit into the picture or what further to believe. I was burnt on the hollowness and muckiness of it all. But then a bit later, never having completely stopped praying or seeking, I began to come across some new perspectives that blew the sides of the boxes out. It was like a veil was taken off so many previously unsatisfying scriptures and they powerfully resonated with my spirit. I just knew this was truth at last, the kind of God I sensed had to be the God I had experienced. This set me alight again, and I was insatiable. I spent years reading and learning and seeking. I make no claim about myself except that I know God brought circumstances into my life which completely won my heart, faith, and affections back to Him. He is now a God I can rejoice in and call my Father with pride. The God I had known from organized Christianity was too badly contradictory and impotent for me to want anything more to do with. I make no judgement at all about your relationship with God. It doesn’t have to be our own interpretation or research. Some do that kind of work with their gifts and energies. Most of us do not. When we hear a thing the Spirit gives witness to and peace with His truth the more we learn to discern with that mind and not the natural mind. I think it’s good to keep in mind that the Holy Spirit does not immediately make everything clear or perfect in our minds. It is a lifelong process. We are all mixtures of truth and error, light and darkness. That’s okay. I’m wrong about stuff all the time, but I can see how God keeps improving my vision as I keep seeking Him and working on it, wrestling with it. Because I desire truth at any cost. I’ve made that bargain with God. Take anything away at any time if it is not fully truth and life to me. Even if it hurts like hell or leaves me reeling. And it has happened a couple times that way. One paradigm shift nearly destroyed me, but God knows our limits and will not let us go. I’d also say, that resolution is always possible and ideal to pursue in this life. Not between you and me, but between us and God and the spirit of revelation. God will resolve much for those who seek and ask fervently and, when necessary, patiently. Because I believe in a living God Who delights in making Himself known more and more to his growing children, when they are interested and care. And I experience Him working that way. I don’t believe in a static book given once for all to be the sum all of God and truth. That said, there is such depth and riches in that book alone, one could spend lifetimes ferreting it out. But I want especially to focus on my life here and now and know what God is doing here and now. quote:No, I’m saying it involves works and processes which began way back then, and continue to this day. They are really spiritual principles and promises of where it all leads. Until it’s all fulfilled, it’s an ongoing process, a few called out and chosen in this age, and many more to come as the dispensation of the Spirit increases. quote:I’m not sure women appeared much in OT prophecy. Can you think of any examples? In the Revelation, women are the collective of persons/soul(s) called out into union with Christ, one group faithful, one not. You can call this “churches” or just people called, but not all of whom are chosen. Babylon is not taken as bride (these souls are not married to Spirit), because she defiles herself with earthly lovers (soulish and carnal affiliations instead of surrender to the Spirit). Yet she thinks she is and poses as the true bride. quote:Well, I was stating it last time, but I can see that God frequently speaks on multiple levels of application, which is quite amazing in and of itself. Clever, clever Guy, our God. Those OT prophecies were timely about literal kings and nations, yet beautifully symbolic in use of names, numbers, and so forth to give a spiritual message that transcends time and space. Why else should we care about them? So, Israel and the law, while literals, are also helpful symbols for all of us to consider. I wouldn’t take away any promises given to literal Israel where they are applied, but I wouldn’t focus on the literal nation of Israel as any more special in focus today than any other nation since 70 A.D. Ichabod: the glory has departed. Jehovah divorced Israel and was freed from His contract with her for her unfaithfulness. They committed the “unpardonable sin” which was not to be forgiven them in this age (the ending age of law in which Jesus was speaking) nor in the age to come (this age of the churches, also winding down in all likelihood). No one in earth has suffered more, or been persecuted more in the last 2000 years than the Jews. They have paid a terrible price. And they too have a promised restoration, which began in, what was it, 1917? [quote]And I have a simple question, which can only accept a yes or no answer (hopefully I'll word it right so that's true!): Do you believe that all people, whether "christian" or not, dead or not, will enter what you understand to be the "Kingdom of Heaven?"[/quote]I can’t answer it quite the way you asked it...sorry. So let me prelude it a bit first. Jesus died for all, paid the debt for all sin, is given authority over all, and promises do what He wills, which is that all be saved. I don’t say they need to be “Christian” because it’s such a word loaded with history and religion and convolution, that it has no spiritual meaning to me. Salvation is not adopting a religious faith and rituals, but simply being redeemed from one’s disconnection from God, from a state of spiritual death back into union and life. So, through Christ, a human soul is reunited with our Father and brought ultimately into incorruptible life. Will this eventually, in some time or place, by some means of our able and fervent Christ happen to everyone who ever breathed, walked, talked, lived, or died? Yes. 1Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 1Cor. 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1Cor. 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1Cor. 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor. 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1Cor. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. The promises in this passage alone are staggering. Scripture tells us the wages of sin is death. If there is no more death, then the wages of sin have been done away with, or rather, sin itself has been done away with. Death is a spirtual condition which results also in the physical condition of death. If all rule and power opposing Christ is put down, then even the wayward self-willed heart of man who since the fall in the garden has sought to rule his own affairs with his own judgement of good and evil cannot stand before the piercing light of the conquering Christ. Every knee will bow. What does God all in all mean, in the end? Near the end of the Revelation, death and hell are cast into the “lake of fire”. The following states in the end there will be no more death, and all things are made new. Re 21:4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away." 5 And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true." So death and hell are destroyed by the work of the lake of fire. No more death. No more hell. This invites where I want to go with what I have been alluding to since getting involved with this thread: “hell” and “eternity” in Scripture—what has been long taught by many, but not dominantly so for all church history, nor ever by all—versus what is consistent with scriptural symbology and actual translation of Greek and Hebrew. Suffice it to say, before getting into it, that it removes any seeming contradiction or impediment to Christ fulfilling His promises to have all men be saved and to fill all things in heaven and in earth with Himself and to wipe all tears from all eyes by the end. He truly is victorious. Death itself has an appointment with death. (This is the second death). [ Wednesday, November 02, 2005 18:53: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
| God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) in General | |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Wednesday, November 2 2005 01:16
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Not THIS next thing. A later next thing. quote:I have a really cool book that explores the Hebrew/Semitic use of numbers, and the scriptures are full of such useage for many numbers. I love this stuff. quote:Yikes, man, don’t you think my posts are too long as they are? That’s a huge topic. But, generally, they are the processes Christ, the Conqueror armed with the two-edged sword of the Word and riding us down upon powerful horses, uses to break open our full redemption from our carnality (earthy!) in thinking and doing so we may become overcomers fit to be given spiritual authority as kings and priests in Christ. We are all a microcosm. We have an inner earth, sea, and heaven within us to be conquered and subdued and made bride to the bridegroom so a Manchild can be born out of us with maturity to be “caught up to the throne (rulership) of God”. This is what we must endure if we are to win the race and attain as Paul exhorted us. Or, to put it really simply, Christ has to do a serious remodel job inside us to make us fit to rightly administer His life to the world with the authority to do it. Kind of like the brutal training soldiers and weight-lifters have to endure in which autonomy or muscles are broken down in order to build a new discipline. quote:God exists beyond all time as we know it. Or we could say it is all lying out before Him at all times. But it’s a mindblower, timelessness. The point here is, though, that this was a prophecy given to the body of believers through John around 90 A.D. saying the time is at hand. It’s not about what time is to God. It’s what is time to those receiving the message. When prophecies were made concerning the Christ to come, God did not say, “This is going to come to pass shortly.” That’s the simplest obvious difference. quote:Signified, signified, sign-ified. Put into signs. The earth is a symbol. The whole book is symbols. There are literal seas, earth, and heavens, and there are prophetic/spiritual seas, earth, and heaven. The horses being ridden aren’t literal. The earth being brutalized in various ways isn’t terra firma, and Jesus isn’t really a lamb or a lion. The stars are not going to fall out of the “heavens”, but the lights which have guided us which are not the Sun are going to fall from their position of being “lights” to us. The heavens in us are the spiritual place of rulership over us, the earth is our soulish realm (mind/will/emotions) which is to fuse a new creation life married to the Spirit in us, and the seas are the low, murky, seething basest carnality within us, animal passion and fleshly appetites. All three must be brought into subjection to Christ for us to overcome and be made kings and priests. There will be great shakings and earthquakes. The city we have built is going to fall and Christ will build the mansion and make us fit to partake of the “holy city” that is New Jerusalem. Five is the number of grace. The fifth seal involves a work of grace involved in our complete redemption. Re 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held When you really are able to start seeing with the eyes of high spiritual language, you may see that souls are indeed slain by the horseman during the fourth seal. Your soul has to die in order to be born again into a new life in Christ. It happens below the altar (found in the temple which is within us) because of the Word which is a two-edged sword proceeding from the mouth of Christ. When we bear witness to the Word of God coming to us with life and power, it also has power to kill, so we might live anew. It kills the old soul life. quote:Prophetic symbology is consistent. God is helpful like that, just as His nature never changes. A “woman” in prophecy is a church, and also speaks of the soul which is represented by the female. “Church” in Greek is “ekklesia” and means “the called out”. In Revelation, we have a pure bride (our soul) given in union to Christ (the Spirit) to give birth to a mature manchild with the authority to rule rightly (over our inner earth in particular), and we have a fornicating, drunken harlot who calls herself the bride, but in reality has used the kings of the earth (political, earthly power on one level, and also the faculties of the mind will and emotions separate from the anointing with Christ on the most spiritual level). Both are a called out people, one pure and true, and one soulish and carnal. Both are cities too: Babylon and New Jerusalem. [quote]I looked up your verse from Joel, (about cleansing the blood) and that is written directly to Judah. Read the stuff before it that has a bunch of not-nice things to say to Egypt and Edom. This is one of the big points of Dispensationalism, a rule that says we can't substitute "the Church" or "believers" in the Old Testement prophecy any place it says "Isreal" or "Judah".[/quote]I can’t say it’s a rule. What Israel and the law were in the OT prefigures, shadows, and types much of what the full body of believers are in the dispensation of grace (and beyond) given to all the earth. It’s there to demonstrate a principle of how God works either way. Prophecies like Joel are awesome in that they have had both an earthly fulfillment (like the feasts) and a more spiritual fulfillment which we can experience internally when God’s judgements are going to work in us. The names of all those nations have meanings, and when you look at what the nations represent by the meaning of their names, you can begin to see what God has promised to do in our own inner earth on a spiritual level too. Not sure what you believe about the Lucifer fallen angel thing, but if you look at the prophecy in Isaiah 14, you’ll see that “lucifer” is the “day star” who was the king of Babylon in that day and was being prophesied against to fall from his place in the heavens (again, heavens are the prophetic realm of rulership). Thus, his name in prophecy was a star so bright, you could see it in the day. Four verses later, it calls him a man who is dragged down the grave. How Churchianity got a fallen angel out of that passage is way beyond my comprehension. On a personal spiritual level though, Babylon means confusion and is associated with a false church and false religion, so there is a judgement to come in our own soul in which false kings of religion are going to be put down like a star falling from heaven. This mirrors falling stars in Revelation, and the “beast” in Revelation who sets himself up as God in the inner temple of our soul, as does much OT prophecy, though it had more immediate earthly fulfillments Israel could observe in many cases. In others, it has not yet been observed—the restoration of Sodom. [ Wednesday, November 02, 2005 01:20: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
| God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) in General | |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 23:55
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quote:It’s neither my list nor “my” theme. I didn’t write them. I’m curious what themes are seen in them. How do these kinds of scriptures fit into context with other beliefs which are held about what scripture says about the nature of God and the extent of His redemptive plans? quote:I do hate to see words like “cannot.” That’s a very closed-minded word we should use great discretion in using. I do not say I “believe” or don’t “believe” the Bible. What I do say is that we need to be wise and seeking about understanding humanity, culture, and context, and how I think it is plain that God permits truth to come through those lenses to us to be rightly discerned by the Spirit within us. It does nothing to negate the myriad truths and wonders found in all that writing. It’s no actual threat that humanity leaks through, because it’s not a divine instruction manual. It’s a bunch of writings pointing us to God so we might have our own reconnection with God and begin to learn for ourselves in spirit what is truth and error, wherever we happen to find it, including any place outside the Bible, because I can promise you God likes to speak to us through many disparate means if we are paying attention. What I believe in is God as the Father of my life. I believe in the nature and purposes of His love. My faith is not placed in a book, or its writers, but in the living Spirit of God which speaks through it to me, just as it is. It doesn’t have to be something to me that it actually isn’t. Life is not in any book. It is in relationship. That book could go away entirely and God and man would still have the means to be known of one another. You have yet to explain to me upon what exactly you base your insistence what 66 books of scripture have to be. All we have is popular belief. Is there any other reason you feel safe in being absolutely certain that you, 2000-4000 years from its writing, know exactly how God gave it, why God gave it, how much God gave it, and to what ends God gave it? Because, I don’t even see anything in there about God talking about some magic book He’s going to assemble for us over time to tell us everything we need to know about God. Any claims to what the Bible itself IS are...extra-Biblical. What I do see is a very telling reprimand like this from the mouth of Jesus: John 5: 39-40 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. quote:Quite right. I am not examining or questioning the MEANS of our salvation at all. Merely the extent. We all know stories of hopeless reprobates who have come into faith in God. There is no kind of person it has not happened to. The Lord even accosted Saul, the torturer and murderer of Christians, on the road and changed his mind in a heartbeat. And so Saul became Paul. The Hound of Heaven can accost any of us with the means necessary to get our attention and awaken our sleeping spirits to knowing, to faith, to belief—according to His will and timing. No one is coerced into loving a loveable Father. They merely need to be properly reintroduced. I suggest the limitation with which Christendom has been successful in this mission reflects the degree to which they have learned how to exercise the Spirit effectively to do so. There is no person who is beyond reach. But the time has not yet been for the full harvest in the earth or in the grave. It has not happened only because God has not yet chosen to do it. He is the Father. He wields the means, grace and judgement/discipline alike, with which to correct us and win us, without coercion. quote:How can I misquote a scripture I made no comment upon? It’s simply THERE. You tell me what they are saying. You explain away all those “alls” into “somes”. You reconcile the heart of a Father Who is love and a Christ Who is the Good Shepherd with your doctrinal interpretation of other scriptures. It has to all harmonize, and what we have here are a lot of verses which should cause us to humbly ask the Holy Spirit to show us what it all means and what sort of God He is, not believe in the traditions of men, which render the gospel of no effect. Also, I challenge wholesale, the statement at the end of your sentence, but before anyone attempts to do so, let’s wait till we have done a little closer looking at Greek next time I write. quote:Even with this translation seeming to suggest in English what we think of with the word “could”, let’s thinkg about it. If Jesus COULD give life to all, why wouldn’t He? The authority and keys are put in His hands, not passively, but actively. Look at all the scriptures I referenced before which state in no uncertain terms Whose will is higher than ours, and Who always does what He wants and wills. So, Jesus doesn’t want to save all He was given? Or He is unable to do so? He was able to save YOU and ME, by grace, by His awakening of our hearts and eyes to His reality, not because you and I are more clever and wise and deserving of this great gift of salvation. You and I aren’t smarter. We aren’t better. We aren’t more loved by God than others. We weren’t born with “better spirits.” You and I believe into our salvation only because He drew us first. He woke us from the lie of the matrix, if you will. It was His work. Here’s Young’s Literal Translation of the Greek. YLT - John 17:1-2 These things spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to the heaven, and said--`Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee, according as Thou didst give to him authority over all flesh, that--all that Thou hast given to him--he may give to them life... “God gave Jesus authority over all flesh so that to all whom He had given Jesus, Jesus may give life...” How many did the Father give Jesus authority over? All flesh. How many will be given life? All that the Father gave to Jesus. How many is that? All of them. What are the limits to which our Good Shepherd is able and willing to go to rescue souls unto salvation? 99 sheep out of 100 are safely in the fold. The Shepherd goes out into the night to take by force the lost sheep and bring it back to the fold. The Shepherd rules the sheep, not the sheep the Shepherd. He knows what “gets” us. Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Ro 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 1Pe 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Whoa, wait a minute...Jesus preached to the DEAD, spirits in “prison” dead from the days of Noah! Who said death, hell, or grave is off bounds to the reach of the Savior to save? Peter talks about it again, below: 1Pe 4:5-6 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God. quote:Please note first the words Jesus speaks which are different from the ones Christians speak...”enter the kingdom of heaven.” This is speaking about entering a realm of spiritual rulership and authority. Kingdoms are realms of heirarchy. Note that not here, nor anywhere else in the whole Bible will you see the phrase, “go to heaven”, “get to heaven”, or “enter heaven.” Jesus was always talking about a Kingdom, not a celestial reward akin to Viking Valhalla. The view Christianity largely holds of “heaven” today is still the infantile thinking of the pagans, who also believed in literal physical rewards and punishments in the afterlife....somehow 20 virgins promised to the Muslim suicide warrior also come to mind. It is true that many who say, “Lord, Lord” will not have earned entrance into the position of rulership with the true Head of the realm of heavens, and will therefore require an age of correction. Those people, ironically, are primarily the religious and devout who never learned to enter in under the dominion of the Spirit and have their souls tamed, but have been operating out of flesh and selfish (if well-intentioned) motivation. They are not prepared for the realm of rulership, which a kingdom implies. Revelation talks about the overcomer being worthy to be kings and priests of Christ (spiritual authority with the mission to bless humankind). That is entering the kingdom. I think it is quite simply the case that the scriptures have virtually nothing to say to describe what exists in the realm of spirit before we are born or after one has died. This is not important for our present understanding, just as we don’t need to understand the era of dinosaurs on the planet at the moment. Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him The heavenly reward is a Kingdom—a realm of rulership, privilege, authority, and work to be done. But this is not mere remission of the penalty for sin. It is attained through merit. This is really why we are here and what salvation is for, not just a selfish, for me act. It’s to save me from myself so I can be granted authority and power to bring others into their redemption and minister the life of God to all creation. This has nothing to do with afterlife in itself. I will offer once more just a few scriptures now fully quoted. These are just a small few of many to be explained away and away and away to show how God doesn’t actually do what He wills, that Jesus didn’t actually pay the price for all sins once for all, and that God is not desinted to fill all things full of Himself. John 12:47 "I did not come to judge the world, but to save THE WORLD" 1 John 4:14 "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the savior of THE WORLD" I Timothy 2:4,6 "God our Savior, who desires (wills) ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth...Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL, the testimony borne at the proper time." Ephesians 1:11 "according to His purpose, who works ALL things after the counsel of HIS WILL" (His will is that ALL be saved) John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up (on the cross) from the earth, WILL draw ALL men to Myself." (Please note, KEL (?) that the Greek word here for “draw” is very forceful. It means “dragged.”) Hebrews 7:25 "He is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through Him" Colossians I:15 "And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of ALL creation" (All creation is to be reborn into this image through Christ). Romans 5:18 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to ALL men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life TO ALL MEN" (God’s grace is equal to the falling from grace, in fact much greater). Ro 5:20 And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound (Ah, God’s grace OVERabounds in relation to sin). I Corinthians 15:22,26 "For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive...the last enemy that will be abolished is death." Luke 3:6 "And ALL mankind shall see the salvation of God" Ephesians 1:10 "..the fullness of times, the summing up of ALL things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth." Colossians I:19,20 "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him (Christ) and through Him to reconcile ALL things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven" Romans 11:32 "For God has shut up ALL in disobedience that He might show mercy to ALL" There are many more. How many alls does it take till we believe HIM and not the tradtions of men which have rendered the gospel of no effect? When Jesus came, the religious experts of the Jews had so messed up the law and their understanding that Jesus had savage words of condemnation for them. Is it out of the realm of likelihood (let alone possibility), that Christians have done the exact same kind of thing with their traditions of belief from once inspired words? Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. KELANDON, I summon thee to do some bidding if thou will.... Please investigate the following words in Greek and share your knowledge: “aion” “aionian” What do these mean in Greek and what modern English words derive from them? The next thing I will write about involves this very matter, and it is pivotal. Selah. [ Wednesday, November 02, 2005 00:04: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
| God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) in General | |
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Shaper
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written Monday, October 31 2005 21:30
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quote:Oh sure, NOW it gets interesting again. I won’t be permitted that simple an escape after all, evidently. Let’s see if I have it in me to write something relatively briefer. And don’t get me wrong, things can get worse from certain perspectives in order for the greater good to come to all of us. The overall progression of the unfolding Kingdom of God and His grace upon the earth is one of increase and improvement. Each new dispensation is a big expansion from the last. It started in Genesis where one man had to offer one sacrifice for himself. It ends in Revelation, where Christ is seen as “All in all” and victorious over all flesh, the One sacrifice ably given for all. First, just a bit on Tabernacles, which was the third of three main feasts. Passover was of course fulfilled spiritually in the death of Jesus and wrapped up the age of the law. Pentecost was fulfilled when the Holy Spirit descended upon those gathered in the upper room some days after Jesus had departed. Pentecost was the feast of firstfruits, the fruit or grain which ripened early before the main harvest, and was gathered to celebrate the promise of the full harvest to come. The Holy Spirit given to humankind for this dispensation of the “church age” or “age of grace” is just a sampling, a down payment of the fullness of the Spirit/harvest yet to come in the earth. The extent that the Kingdom of God has been represented in the earth and done its work is also merely a sampling and not the full harvest itself. Tabernacles is the feast celebrating the full harvest (and itself contains several smaller feasts). The fullness of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, the fullness of the Kingdom, the full salvation of humankind, and the summing up of all things in Christ are yet to be fulfilled. There is yet a dispensation of the work and grace of God to come, and it far outsizes anything the world has seen yet. If you refer to many of the passages I referenced in my last post, we can see a lot of very encouraging promises of fullness and completeness of God’s work in the world, in its inhabitants, and the extent of the salvation He bought for all the world. For anyone who is not automatically threatened by the possible roles of the stars in the heavens, which God created and said He gave as signs, it is known that we are in or near a period of change from the age of Pisces (the two fishes, fish being a symbol of the church and also two being the number of witness), to the age of Aquarius, the one who pours the jar of water out upon the earth. This represents a transition of ages to the fullness of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, symbolized often by water, upon the earth. The signs of the Zodiac are highly spiritual, and predate the Babylonian religion of astrology. Some traditions trace the Zodiac back to Noah’s sons. I believe the signs (12 in number, 12 being the Biblical number of divine government) tell a very Biblical, spiritual story of the progressive works of God in the world and within us. It is also good to note that God makes things specially complete in threes, thus the importance of recognizing the three feasts, even if we are yet in the second. The view of “rapture” which I espouse, in a nutshell, is that there is nothing of the sort as a physical event either before or after a “tribulation.” There is a very in-depth and wonderful series of writings on the six words in Greek which all got translated in English as the “coming” of Christ in the New Testament (link below). One can see much more consistent and meaningful interpretations of the disparate handful of verses uses to assemble the modern rapture theories. The words mean a variety of things, and the verses lumped together to support a rapture can readily be seen to be talking about numerous different kinds of appearing and the presence of and revealing of Christ. If anyone is seriously interested in exploring the subject, I recommend the articles I linked. Looking For His Appearing It is interesting to note, that one of those six words is “apokalupsis” which is simply the title of the book of “Revelation.” Apocalypse means “unveiling”, or “revelation”. So, what is this book Revelation all about really, full of so many strange and fearful images? The very first verse gives us some very basic and very useful information: YLT: Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John, KJV: Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: First, the book is a vision given to John, the beloved disciple while in exile under Emperor Domitian on the isle of Patmos. The title of the vision is right at the beginning: The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It’s a book revealing, unveiling Jesus the anointed Savior in some way. Second, a critical detail to note is the word “signified.” This word in Greek literally means “put into signs.” The vision is put into signs. It is symbolic. Jesus spoke in parables. Prophecies are given in symbols. This is the language of the Spirit. So why people look at the imagery in the vision and fear literal hailstones falling, seas turning into literal blood, literal locust-like creatures hurting people, a literal “man of sin” walking into a literal temple in Jerusalem and ruling the earth, literal fires or beasts or lambs—or anything else in the vision—is simply baffling. A third thing to note is the vision talks about things “to come to pass shortly/quickly”. It was imminent. It speaks of things pertinent to the time the vision was given, not some distant sci-fi tale of dread for a far off age 2000 years or more into the future. It continues to be pertinent. Additionally, Unlike the Old Testament prophecy of Daniel which was about literal earthly kingdoms and was sealed (hidden from understanding) until the time of its fulfillment, The Revelation is not sealed up, not meant to be obscure. It is meant to be a revelation after all, not a mystery. Believe it or not there is scarcely a symbol in the Revelation that hasn’t already been used elsewhere in Bible prophecy. None of them would have been unfamiliar to a good Jew who knew his Old Testament. Those earlier useages help to tell us a lot about the meanings of the symbols. Too much to go into here of course, but way cool to look at. So, whatever is in The Revelation we know was already beginning or soon to begin unfolding, and that it involves the revealing of Jesus Christ. Everything else is incidental to and supportive of that theme. In this light, many have come to see the vision talking about the plans and means at the disposal of Jesus Christ to reveal Himself within all of us and to all creation. He purchased all with His blood. He has been given the keys of death and hell and triumped over death for all the world. The revelation is a glorious and sometimes sobering picture of how He is going to come forth and conquer all hearts and usher in the fullness of the Kingdom in earth, seen in the New Jerusalem (a new heavenly government) appearing in the earth. The scroll of seven seals is the Kinsman-Redeemer scroll of Hebrew culture and written about in the Old Testament. It involves the case in which a person sold into slavery for a debt he could not pay could be redeemed by a blood relative who paid the debt. The scroll was sealed until that debt was paid, and only a kinsman-redeemer could take the scroll and break the seal, releasing the debtor into from his bondage. So, this is what the opening of the scroll in Revelation is all about...our ultimate and complete redemption from slavery to sin and death. It’s a familiar cultural symbol to a Jew in the first century A.D. It means little to modern Europeans and Americans. This is a very good example of how we need to learn something of cultural context if we hope to make anything meaningful out of much of scripture. Jesus is of course our Kinsman-Redeemer Who is worthy to open the scroll and who purchased us with His blood. Seven is the Hebrew number of divine perfection/completion (on the seventh day God rested) It is a perfect work completed by breaking seven seals. Jesus is also the rider of the four horses coming forth to make war on our earth. He lays waste to our inner soil of carnal thoughts and works, for we are earth and we are the garden in which He plants the good seed. We may have to have our false crops beaten down with hailstones, our fields ridden over and plowed up for new life to be birthed from the soil of our soul, our waters turned bitter so we might turn to drink only of the life-giving water of the Holy Spirit. We have to be killed even with “death” (to former thoughts and ways) and starved of what has formerly and falsely sustained us. He is the Hound of Heaven, the Conqueror on the white horse (always a symbol of purity) riding into our earth to conquer sin and death in US. There is a false prophet to the truth and life of the working of Christ. There is a harlot church/bride who fornicates with the kings of the earth, working against our ultimate redemption and union with the true Bridegroom, yet even God calls her a golden cup in His hand, achieving His ends despite her whoring ways. There is a bestial system in the world which rises out of the seas, (which are the symbol of the deep churning waters of the carnal soul) which opposes and attempts to subdue and rule us instead of Christ within us. There is a “man of sin” (spuriously and erroneously assumed to be “the antichrist”) within us which seeks to make itself god within the temple that we are. There is no antichrist mentioned in all of Revelation. It is mentioned four times in the three books of John, and if someone is curious, I’ll do a little examination of those in a future post. The vision of the Revelation applies both to our inner world and the outer world as a whole, but it is primarily an individual process each of us must undergo for Christ to be revealed in us, for us to “overcome.” It’s all highly picturesque and symbolic of the grand warfare for the earth of our soul—the war Jesus Christ wages to make overcomers fit to usher in the fullness of the Kingdom (the feast of Tabernacles fullfilled) upon the earth, both our inner earth, and resultingly, the outer earth of the planet. It is an age-long work yet in process, soul by soul. It’s been going on for 2000 years. The exciting thing is the book does end with that war finished, that victory complete, and the blessings of divine rulership (from inside out) given out to all the world. NOTE: I figured out I can actually post what I wrote yesterday, if anyone other than Jewels/Gizmo, whose post it addresses, would like to see what it was about. It’s my longest yet, I’m afraid. [ Monday, October 31, 2005 22:29: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
| God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) in General | |
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Shaper
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written Monday, October 31 2005 14:12
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Gizmo...ok. Riibu...Yes I did. In the first, you selected verses which differentiate between the Father and Jesus, though I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say by selecting them. In the second, you selected verses which state that there is foolishness in the world and in one's own understanding, but again didn't say what you were trying to imply by those...that the Bible alone is the only source of any truth or wisdom? I'd like at least a couple sentences describing what each set of scriptures is saying to you so I know what point you are trying to communicate. If we all clearly saw the same meaning in scriptures by merely reading them, we wouldn't be having this dialogue in the first place. For those who asked how I can have such an optimistic view of God and the future of the planet, here is the tail end of what I wrote yesterday, but did not post. It's a list of Scriptures I find especially meaningful and hopeful, and might I add, highly suggestive and intriguing. If one is going to believe in the promises made there, these are good ones to ponder and embrace. Maybe someone else can state what the themes are. 1) Is 46:10.....God will do all His pleasure 2) Dan 4:35.....God's will done in heaven & Earth and none can stop Him 3) Prv 16:9.....Man devises, but God directs his steps 4) Prv 19:21.....Man devises, but God's counsel will stand 5) Prv 16:33.....The whole disposing thereof is of the Lord 6) Ps 37:23.....The steps of man are ordered of the Lord 7) Ps 33:15.....God fashions all hearts 8) Job 5:17-18.....God wounds then makes whole 9) Hos 6:1-2.....God tears, but in the 3rd day He heals 10) Deut 32:39.....God kills & makes alive, He wounds, then heals 11) Ps 90:3.....God turns man to destruction, then says...return 12) Jer 18:2-6.....God mars vessels & then remakes them 13) Lam 3:31-32.....God will not cast off forever 14) Ps 102:18-20.....God will loose those appointed to death 15) Is 2:2.....All nations will flow to the Lord's house 16) Joel 3:21.....God will cleanse blood that has not been cleansed 17) Gen 18:18.....All families of the earth will be blessed 18) Is 45:22.....All the earth commanded to look and be saved 19) Is 45:23.....Unto God All will bow & every tongue swear 20) Is 40:3-5.....Highway of God enables all flesh to see His Glory 21) Ps 138:4.....All kings will praise God 22) Ps 72:17.....All nations will call Him blessed 23) Ps 86:9.....All nations will worship God & All men blessed 24) Is 52:10.....All earth will see the salvation of God 25) Ps 65:2-4.....All flesh will come to God 26) Is 11:9.....Earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord 27) Ps 66:3-4.....Enemies will submit & All earth will worship 28) Is 19:14-25.....Egypt and Assyria will be restored 29) Ezk 16:55.....Sodom will be restored 30) Ps 68:18.....God will lead captivity captive to dwell in man 31) Is 54:5.....He will be called the God of the whole earth 32) Ps 22:25-29.....All will remember & turn unto the Lord 33) Ps 145:9-10.....God is good to all & merciful to His works 34) Ps 145:14.....Raises all that fall & All that be bowed down 35) Ps 145:15.....Eyes of all wait upon God & He will give them their meat in due season 36) Ps 145:16.....Will satisfy desire of all living 37) Ps 145:9.....The Lord is good to all 38) Ps 145:10.....All thy works shall praise thee 39) Ps 24:1.....The earth is the Lord's and the fullness therof 40) Is 25:6.....The Lord will make unto all people a feast 41) Is 25:7.....He will destroy the veil that's cast over All 42) Is 25:8.....He will swallow up death in victory 43) Is 25:8.....He will wipe away tears from all faces 44) Jer 32:35.....it never entered His mind to pass sons & Daughters through the fire of Molech 45) Ps 135:6.....The Lord did what pleased Him in heaven/earth/sea that His Father gives Him 46) Is 26:9.....When God's judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness 47) Ps 89:2.....Mercy shall be built up forever 1) Eph 1:11.....God works all after the counsel of His will 2) Jn 8:29.....Jesus always does which pleases His Father 3) 1Tim 2:4.....God will have all to be saved 4) 1Jn4:14.....Jesus sent to be the Savior of the World 5) Jn 12:47.....Jesus came to save all 6) 1Tim 2:6.....Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all 7) Jn5:36.....He'll finish the works He was sent to do 8) Jn 4:42.....Jesus is the Saviour of the world 9) Jn 12:32.....Jesus will draw all to Himself 10) Heb 7:25.....Jesus is able to save to the uttermost 11) Col 1:15.....Jesus the first born of all creation 12) Col 1:16.....By Him all things were created 13) Rm 5:15-21.....In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live 14) 1Cor 15:22.....In Adam all die, in Christ All live 15) Eph 1:10.....All come into Him at the fulness of times 16) 1Cor 15:26.....Last enemy, death, will be destroyed 17) Phl 2:9-11.....Every tongue shall confess Jesus as Lord 18) 1Cor 12:3......Cannot confess except by the Holy Ghost 19) Rm 11:26.....All Israel shall be saved 20) Acts 3:20-21.....Restitution (reconstitution) of all 21) Lk 2:10.....Jesus will be the joy to all people 22) Eph 2:7.....His grace to be shown in the ages to come 23) Heb 8:11-12.....All will know God 24) Lk 3:6.....All flesh shall see the salvation of God 25) Titus 2:11.....Grace has appeared to all 26) Rm 8:19-21.....Creation freed from corruption 27) Col 1:20.....All reconciled unto God 28) 1Cor 4:5.....All will have praise of God 29) Jms 5:11.....End of the Lord is full of mercy 30) Rev 15:4.....All nations worship when judgements seen 31) 11Cor 5:17.....New creation in Christ (eph1:10) 32) Rm 11:32.....All subjected to unbeleif, mercy on all 33) Rm 11:36.....All out of God, thru Him, and into Him 34) Eph 4:10.....Jesus will fill all things 35) Rev 5:13.....All creation seen praising God 36) 1Cor 15:28.....God will be all in all 37) Rev 21:4-5.....No more tears, all things made new 38) Jn 5:28.....All dead who hear will live 39) Jn 5:28.....All in the grave will hear and come forth 40) 1Cor 3:15.....All saved, yet so as by fire 41) Mk 9:49.....Everyone will be salted with fire 42) Rm 11:15.....Reconciliation of the world 43) 11Cor 5:15.....Jesus died for all 44) Heb 2:2.....He is the heir of all things 45) Jn 3:35.....All has been given into His hand 46) Jn 17:2.....Jesus will give eternal life to all 47) Jn 6:44-45.....All to be taught of God and will come 48) 1Tim 4:9-11.....Jesus is the Saviour of all 49) Acts 13:47.....Salvation unto the ends of the earth -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
| God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) in General | |
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Shaper
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written Sunday, October 30 2005 22:03
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Holy cow. I must have outdone myself. My reply was so long it wouldn't "take" in the reply box. I have decided not to post it here and to let the thread die or go where it will. I don't wish to be doing this with all my free time either, and it smacks of my own pride to put so much earnestness into my efforts. I know it's not necessary and not very useful to debate Who God is this way most of the time. There' s a part of me that obviously loves to do it, but there's a wiser part of me that until recently, had mostly learned to put all that striving behind me and just live the life instead of talk the life (nods to Salmon who probably wrote the wisest sentence in this whole thread.) So, I demure for the good of us all I think. Riibu, if you'd actually made some points, I would have enaged what you are putting together better. Gizmo, if you would like to see what I wrote in response to your last post, I will email it to you. -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 18:35
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I vote for the nurse. That's almost as good as a French maid. -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 18:13
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Maybe you're focusing on the wrong guy, Chicho. We make a lot of our own luck. And a lot of what we call curses in our lives do an important work in us that would not be possible through some happier means. Also, why do people post just to say I don't read and am not interested in your post? :confused: -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 17:27
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Nothing like a shotgun to really spread the lead. Now, concerning Halloween, why should the kiddies have all the fun playing dress up? I have plans to fulfill a certain holiday wish which involves a certain little someone in a certain little French maid outfit and mostly involves treats, but doesn't rule out a few tricks. There's only one little hitch in my plans. I still need to find that certain little someone to play Trick or Treat with all year round. I can see I've said too much. This post rated PG-13 by the Holiday Association of America (HAA!) [ Saturday, October 29, 2005 18:35: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 17:17
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Heh, ben ben, I'm sure Muji is deeply touched by your near recollection of his former presence. I look forward to again mixing it up with the Muji-meister in the near future when he can tear himself away from duty. (Clearly he has his priorities way out of whack! :P ) -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
| God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) in General | |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 16:48
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quote:Please speak freely for yourself. Believe it or not, I am always willing to consider other possibilities when they offer something compelling. All I seek is a harmonious truth that resonates with the nature of the God I have grown to know. I trust that spiritual faculty God gives me to continue taking me in the right direction as I seek with open mind and open heart. I believe God honors the sincere requests of His children to find His truth at any cost. God likes curious and challenging sons who aren’t afraid to ask many questions. There is nearly no primary concept or belief in my Christian faith which has not been turned on its head or revised dramatically over the years of my seeking after truth. When we are spiritually young, we perceive much as children do in the natural. As we grow, our perspectives, rather than realities themselves, change. If we do not insist upon remaining as children in our understanding, our perceptions will change and expand dramatically. The problem with “conservativeness” in general, is simply that God is not conservative. He is all about never-ending growth and maturity. The increase of His Kingdom knows no end, as Daniel stated. He is ever expanding, doing new things, and inviting us further up His vast mountain of truth. There is no end to the depths and riches found within God and His truth. We go as far as we dare. Most of us pitch camp somewhere and get comfortable, but God forever moves on. There is a daunting, but actually wonderful little spiritual principle that the way to new life comes paradoxically through death. A seed goes into the earth and dies to make a new living plant. Jesus died to make a new life possible. The law and its system of ritual was put to an ignoble death in 70 A.D. to make way for the new wine, a new dispensation of God into the earth. If we want to keep growing and moving with God, we are going to die many deaths, deaths to former cherished ways of belief chief among them. It’s only fearful when we don’t understand how a death is necessary for a new and expanded life. When we bury our talents (and our understanding) in the soil we reap no increase. This current “church age” dispensation is going to die too. God has bigger and better things yet ahead. Do you really imagine this is as good as it gets? Are you content with this being as good as it gets? This isn’t merely wishful thinking on part of my own vivid imagination. Many prophecies speak of ages yet to come, dispensations yet to come, if you will. Paul spoke of ages yet to come in which the grace of God was going to be made fully known to this earth. The increase of His Kingdom will see no end, and it is destined to swallow up every last heart and soul in reuniting Father with sons until He is all in all as promised multiple times. This is harmonious with both scriptural promises and with my understanding of the nature of love, of Fatherhood, and my own experience and knowing the character of our God. I see that this is the pattern of God’s dispensing Himself into humankind. We have seen fulfillments of Passover and Pentecost feasts spiritually in the earth so far. Would you care to elaborate on what the dispensationalist viewpoint does with the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles? quote:I find it ironic that it has been more your inclination to offer “nothing” to actually engage the points of the arguments I have been making. Why do you say it is my own interpretations of scriptures? I am not that original, and there is nothing new under the sun, anyway. It is the persuasive and resonant spirit, arguments, and scholarship of many others which have served me well to continually help stimulate and shape my beliefs. I see that God gives many pieces to many and we have to poke around if we really want to start putting all the pieces together. quote:Hyperbolic statement, but amusing. I am speaking in terms of mixture, not black and white, not all or nothing. All we have to do is look at God’s messages to the seven churches in Asia Minor around 90 A.D. in John’s Revelation chapters 2 & 3 to see how immediately all kinds of mixture and mischief set into the churches from the get-go. Errors compound over time when we don’t take a fresh, healthy look at old beliefs. Mistakes are made first by one or a few, and then by many through faith in men, through popularity, and through dogma imposed by a political church structure. Any time we lock in our understanding, we close ourselves to improved vision of truth. I suggest God does not magically force out humanness and cultural context when inspiring His seekers and His vessels of communication. Many things God speaks are directed to a time and place and will have much less relevance outside that time or place. Why do we spend so much time worshipping the words of dead men instead of actively seeking that same living God for what He has to say to us for our here and now? EDIT: Riibu, I see your selected passages and that they have a common theme. Will you state the point you wish to be establishing with them? Also, I agree, any one little point, let alone many, about God is potentially vast. I LOVE this about God and truth. I wish I knew better ways to say much more with much less myself. Why don't you just start with picking one or two points to examine or challenge and summarize what you think and believe about it. Then it can be examined deeper if anyone wants to do so. Right now, I still have little idea where you are coming from and what you are getting at. Gizmo: I wait with, um, bated breath. :rolleyes: [ Saturday, October 29, 2005 17:08: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Friday, October 28 2005 18:02
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I'm rather wondering how the traditional roles and spells for mages and priests were established, because the two do not seem very cleanly dilineated. I am assuming most of the currently accepted spells for each come from D&D? If I were designing a world of magical users, i'd make priests truly limited to dealing with healing and shielding and other defensive spells (which would include repelling the dead). I'd make mages for aggressive/harmful spells only, and a third class of some sort for manipulating the forces of nature: call beast, far sight, move mountains, dispel barriers, weather spells, light, etc. I'm not terribly impressed with the mix-n-match spell assignment which seems to have gone from D&D tradition into RPG law. EDIT: I'm just talking about which category spells get divided into, not that a PC should have to be forced to only specialize in one set. [ Saturday, October 29, 2005 00:19: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |