God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! )
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, November 2 2005 22:40
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If you're not amused, you can always stop watching. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 07:36
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I'm glad to hear it Riibu. Some of my denomination really paint JW's as a 'bad' religion. The only qualm I still keep with your denomination is that you have your 'own' Bible. Why are the exsisting versions not good enough? I have not read any of it to compare how it differs from other translaitons, but I really fear for what of Scripture is getting tweaked just enough not to mean the same thing. I feel this way about most all translations and even have a few reservations for my 'trusty' NIV. Perhaps it's time I learned Greek? Edit: quote:FYT :P [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 07:38: Message edited by: Jewels ] -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 1851
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 10:07
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quote:The most important bit that is left out from Bibles is the name of God. Jehovah is the personal name of God which he chose for himself. It means "He Causes To Become" (as in he does nothing in vain, what he sets out to do, he does and so it happens. It's a promise that we can trust his words). His name is mentioned nearly 7000 times in Hebrew texts alone, as the Tetragrammaton (JHWH, if I remember correctly). Granted we don't know *exactly* how it was pronounced back then, but that doesn't stop us. In Finnish we say 'Jehova', but in English there's an 'h' at the end, and the pronounciation is not the very same. In other languages it is also said in different way, because that's how languages work. Remember Matthew 6:9? His name is important and it should not be .. not told to people, who want to get closer to God. I mean, look at it this way: how close can you be to one of your friends, if you never knew their actual name? You'd have to call him 'hey you', or 'person'. That's no basis for a friendship, and same goes for our relationship with Jehovah. The one particularly beautiful thing is that it IS possible to his friend. It's possible to do things that make him feel happy about you. Think about it! We, the tiny, imperfect dust particles of the universe can do things that make our God, Jehovah, happy. Not even mentioning all the wonderful things that will happen after Harmagedon, and to which we have the chance to be a part of. :) Of course, it doesn't just *happen*.. we do have to work for it. EDIT: You know how people these days can think that they can choose their religion by whatever suits their fancy most, or combine stuff in whatever way they want to? It doesn't work like that. Jehovah wants us to worship him in a way that really pleases him and that means we do as he tells us to do. We no longer think of life as a personal joyride, but we are under a just and wise rule. Jehovah knows what's best for us (he did create us!) and he loves us. .. hm. If I keep adding stuff, this'll be a long long post. There's so much I'd like to tell though! :P [back to original post :\ ] Also, because this subject came up in our study today.. please people.. don't mention hell to me. Right now that subject just makes me angry. I don't know if you believe in it, but I hope you see through Satan's horrible lies. There is an excellent example in the book 'What Does The Bible Really Teach?' about that. Let me retell it to you and you decide how it makes you feel. quote:Just.. 1 John 4:8 "-- God is love." I wanted you all to know that. I nearly burst into tears when we got to that part because I just got so angry, and sad. It's a horrible thing to believe. [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 10:13: Message edited by: Pien' Kiusanhenki ] -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 11:00
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quote:I was staying out of this discussion, but I felt like answering this question. Thing is, everyone faces this problem, whether they believe in God or not. You can ask "Where did God come from?", but you can just as reasonably ask "Where did the laws of physics come from? Where did matter come from? Where did..." and so on and so forth. No matter your worldview, if you go back far enough in the chain of cause and effect, you're presented with the fact that something, somewhere, sometime, had to exist with out being made by or coming from anything else. God, theoretically being an eternal being without beginning or end, arguably makes more sense as The First Thing Ever from this point of view than The Big Bang or anything else. But even if you consider that a cop-out, you still have ask the same question of whatever you believe was the First Thing Ever. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 11:19
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quote:The traditional response to this - which I'm not sure if I suscribe to or not, but regardless - would be that God doesn't do this. It Satan who's the horrible torturing one. "So wait, God's all-powerful, why doesn't he stop that?" He does... if you ask him to. God isn't a meanie who punishes us with painful, hurting fire if we don't come to him. He wants us to come to him so we don't get burned with painful, hurting fire. Personally, I'm not really sure about how the whole afterlife thing works, but I guess I'll figure it out when I get there. [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:20: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 1851
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 11:50
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Satan will be destroyed in time and hell is just wrong wrong wrong. Nothing but a lie. So! Also, no afterlife. Nada. When you're dead, you're gone. There is absolutely nothing that keeps on going. No soul, no spirit, they're all wrong. Your life is the flame in a candle. When you blow it out, it doesn't go elsewhere, it's gone. E: Illogical. And I'm tired, so I'm sorry if I can't get my brain to focus on a hundred pages of things I should translate just to explain one simple thing. I don't want to do this right now. Besides. Who in here really cares? You all just want to argue. :\ E: That's not the only 'argument' I have. I could quote hundreds of words on these subjects, but I'm tired. I don't believe it would do you any good. You wouldn't believe, no matter what. This, this here what I'm doing? I think is futile. I'm not even here to argue, I'm here because I care about these things and it hurts me to see someone getting so much wrong. All of you have potential. Don't you want a happy life? If there's no afterlife, wouldn't you rather live forever? Why can't you .. why not? :( [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 12:06: Message edited by: Pien' Kiusanhenki ] -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 11:53
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Uh, just saying "You're wrong" doesn't add a lot to a discussion. I was just showing that on a theoretical level at least, it's possible for hell and a loving God to coexist, so you can't use the "God is love" verse to prove Hell doesn't exist, regardless of whether it does or not. [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 11:57: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 12:37
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Alright, fine. This is a shortcut, because I'm running out of patience, and no that's necessarily a good thing, but I'm tired so that's what you get. Mind you, the CD's from 1999, because my friend could unfortunately not find the newer one they have. Must get my own some time soon. Go here and read. -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 12:58
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quote:Thanks for adding that. I can cetainly sympathise with lacking time/energy/interest to participate in a discussion like this. That's why I haven't joined in until just now. Personally, I think this topic has been exceptional in that it's been much more of a discussion than an argument, and I like that. I don't say things to argue as much as to explore. For me, I'm less interested in believing something because it'll give me a "happy life" than I am in believing something because it's true. Plus, it's much easier to do. :P Some things I believe strongly. Some things I believe, but think I could be wrong. Some things I don't really know what to believe, such as the afterlife one. I find it interesting to see what other people have to say on the issue. If you want to "correct" or "educate" me, go for it. I don't mind. But I will critically assess the reasons you give me to agree with you. If your reasons are good enough, I should come around. quote:Thanks, but I don't think I will. Partly because it's really long, partly because I'm more interested in YOUR reasons for believing what you do. But if you don't have the time/energy/desire to talk about it, that's fine. [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 13:06: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 13:53
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quote:Nope. Not really. I just want everyone to survive. I know I can't reach everyone's heart, but I'd love to. I just want people to realise what they're missing out on. I think we all do. quote:Not right now, no. I'm actually trying to write on my nanonovel, because I started another from scratch and I'm really behind the schedule.quote:Thanks, but I don't think I will. Partly because it's really long, partly because I'm more interested in YOUR reasons for believing what you do. But if you don't have the time/energy/desire to talk about it, that's fine. But! My reasons? I just.. do. :\ Maybe it's that what I read makes sense and is logical enough.. maybe it's that there's quite a bit of evidence that Witnesses really do have *something* in here.. or maybe it's how I feel when I've been studying, or been to a meeting, or just spent good time with healthy-minded people. Everything is positive. There's just a gut feeling of.. right. Oh, and you can't beat getting your first speech assignment. :) I'm looking forward to it, but I don't know what we'll say yet. My friend promised we could look over the speech (or, not a speech per se) some day, but it's set in December, so there's no hurry. Granted, I'm rather poor in faith. I was (sort of) raised as a Witness, but I'm only getting into it now. Ash, would you rather read a short story by me? It's a bit exaggerated, but it tells about my feelings from some years back. The main character is .. partially me, but we have the same problem, still. I'm working on it though. E: Oh, also, that link's for everyone. :\ [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 13:54: Message edited by: Pien' Kiusanhenki ] -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 17:24
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I was about to say that "Jehovah" is, by the way, comically wrong, but then I looked for a good online reference and discovered that Jehovah's Witnesses argue in favor of the word, despite all evidence to the contrary. They are joined by the truly authoritative KJVO Movement. Wow. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 17:39
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God does not have a name. Call him God. ;) -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 17:43
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quote:God refers to himself point-blank as YHWH (or, within the realm of reason, JHVH), which is the Hebrew verb for 'being' in the present or future tense. Haven't you read the Bible? Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Too Sexy for my Title
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 18:05
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quote:It's Ben. You shouldn't have to ask. (jk) Now, as of JHVH that's a given fact. He is mention like that hundreds of time within the Bible. Posts: 1035 | Registered: Friday, April 1 2005 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 18:42
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Nah, not interested in any short stories, sorry. I actually met a guy who was, well, I suppose what most people here would call a "fundie". KJV being the only inspired version and all that. Probably considered Catholicism a cult. One particularly memorable moment: Him: (Out of the blue) Have you been saved? Me: (Suprised) Uh... I guess so. Him: "Guess so" isn't good enough! The WISE MAN built his house on THE ROCK! That's verbatim, by the way. We actually had a few JW's visit while he was staying with us. This is all on a remote outback property in the middle of Queensland, I might add. It kinda sounds like the set up for a sit-com, now I think back on it. EDIT: Er, sorry about the derail. Just was reminded of that. [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 18:49: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 18:46
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quote:Disclaimer: professional wrestlers may not be an approved foundation for residential construction in your local building code. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 18:57
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Names are wonderfully meaningful things in scripture. Just as there are myriad nameable qualities of God summed up as “love”, God has many titles attributed to Himself, all to tell us something of His nature and intentions. So, as others have pointed out, JHVH is the primary OT name, the “I am that I am” (which can more meaningfully be constructed as something like “I will be as I choose to appear to be, or what pleases me to be”—and suggests His ability to appear in many forms and for many reasons in many different times and places, suited to the need and the purpose of His revelation of Himself. In Semitic culture, a name was equivalent to a nature, not just a label. Your name said something vital about who you are, which is why names were changed as natures and roles changed. Jacob became Israel. Ge 32:28 Then he said, "Your name shall no more be called Jacob, but Israel, for you have striven with God and with men, and have prevailed." The name is nature. When something is done “in the name of Jesus”, it is not talking about magically invoking something by speaking the name. It simply means, doing the thing in the nature of Jesus, by the same spirit Jesus did it. Ac 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Names are important in the times of the writing of scriptures. Today for most of us, they are not especially personally significant to who we are. Here at Spiderweb we can choose our own names, so moreso than in real life, our names can reflect something we wish to say about who we are. Riibu, if there is no continuation of soul or spirit after physical death, how is it that Lazarus, who had been dead long enough to stink, came back to life? Wouldn't his spirit have ceased to exist upon the moment of his death? Was he a zombie, with no soul? What of the wicked deceased, “in prison” from the days of Noah, whom Christ preached the gospel to (passages quoted earlier in this thread)? It is interesting to me that the view of heaven/hell you seem to be alluding to are much more in line with what I have come to understand as well—that they are not literal places. In that sense, I don’t see some separate parallel afterlife. We are meant to inhabit a body, an incorruptible body, which is some kind of fusion of body and spirit which Christ demonstrated after His resurrection. God’s arena of experience for us is this earth. How that could tie into our role after physical death or spiritual perfecting and in the kind of body Christ showed us is another discussion. I think it is clear there is much yet to come in the ongoing outworking of Gods plans for the ages. We ain’t seen nuthin’ yet. I'm curious what you and JW’s do believe about hell, Riibu. It certainly does exist in some aspect, as it is mentioned repeatedly in scriptures. What it refers to is what is open to examination. That’s what I want to put on the table now—a more positive and God-consistent view of hell and fire in scripture. There are four words in the Bible which King James translated “hell.” In the OT, there is only Sheol, the Hebrew word for the grave. In the NT, in Greek, the grave is referred to as Hades, and appears frequently as “hell”. It is only the realm of the dead, however, with no implication of consciousness or experience there. For instance, “lucifer”, the day star, king of Babylon, in a propechy in Isaiah 14 is a man cut down and dragged into Sheol, the grave. He died like any other man. There is no afterlife of fire or punishment in all the OT at all. Seems like a strange omission for such a desperately critical fate to avoid, for such a perilous risk for so many to face. God didn’t care to warn the many millions or billions of souls in the years B.C. about the threat of eternal torture if they didn’t follow the Hebrew Law? Or was there never any hope for those who died B.C., because the Christ had not yet come? Was the price He paid for sin through all time in both directions, or only from that point onwards? Scripture says He was “the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.” The provision was made long before Jesus ever came. What changed was our awareness of and invitation into that provision. So, how did OT people avoid hell? We do have a God in the OT who laid down a law with an “eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth” sense of justice. God determined it was just to let the punishment fit the crime, something many civilizations adhere to in their pursuit of justice to this day. Jehovah had serious problems with the followers of Molech, who offered their own babies as burnt offerings. Le 18:21 You shall not give any of your children to devote them by fire to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. Jer 32:35 They built the high places of Ba'al in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to offer up their sons and daughters to Molech, though I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin. God said it didn’t enter into HIS mind to commit the abomination of offering babies to the fire in sacrifice. Yet, this somehow comes to be, in the believer’s thinking, EXACTLY what God Himself comes to do or permit to be done to His own children by the billions. Moreover, what seems like a worthy punishment for a mere life of selfish living or even living a pretty nice life, but not happening to “say a sinner’s prayer” at sometime in your life in order to be “saved”? Eternal fiery torture? Would it even be justice to torture a person for the endurance of the period of time they had lived? Would it be justice to burn them alive for a whole day? Would it be in your own heart of limited mercy to do this to billions of human beings and call it justice? Do you assign less mercy and goodness and redemptive ability to the Divine Judge than you yourself possess? I think not. What conceit Christianity has fostered, lowering God to the status of tyrant and bully beneath the ability of their own hearts of mixture, wielding a God Who uses sheer terror of torture (literally, during the Inquisistion) to scare people into the kingdom. All the torturers and burners of history were more merciful than God that in sooner or later, they put their victims to death and escape from pain. But no, your loving Father will abandon YOU to eternal torture of the greatest pain, because He loves you so much and this is the only fit justice for horrible wicked you. Such a joyful place “heaven” must be, knowing that billions of your own families and friends and loved ones are being burned alive every second you romp through celestial flower-filled fields eating grapes. No, no, no more silliness and impossible contradictions. Let the punishment fit the crime is God’s determination for how His justice works. Eternal torture is not even remotely a just treatment for a life of carnality and selfishness, let alone, one of mere ignorance. I’m pretty sure the Chinese and Australian aborigines in 1000 B.C. really had no way to consider partaking of the Jewish ritual system in order to be “brought into the fold” and acquire attonement from sin by slaughtering animals in the temple in Jerusalem. What kind of omnipotent and omniscient God of love and purpose sets up such a fatally-flawed scenario? What omnipotent and wise and loving God could permit anything to steal away His own purposes in creation? Who’s the Boss around here, anyway? So much for hell in the OT. It makes no possible logical sense in the terms of justice for most of the world far out of reach of Palestine and its blessed enlightenment. It makes no sense in order for the punishment to fit the crime. And it just doesn’t even happen to exist in all the OT scripture. Oops. So, where does hell come from? Well, as it is now taught literally by Christendom, it is almost exactly what the Egyptians and Assyrians and other pagans believed they faced in the afterlife: fiery torments for the wicked, and physical indulgences for the good. Christianity has embraced the unenlightened doctrines of the pagans in their understanding of God and His agents. When God speaks in terms of fire and fiery judgements, the pagan-minded people of the era dragged another beautiful spiritual symbol down into literal fires and literal fears. Trust me. God is a better God than to emulate the wretched fears of cruel pagans who skinned their captives alive, impaled them on spikes, buggered their fallen foes on the battlefied after a battle, and burnt their children alive to appease their gods. So what does God have to do with fire? Heb 12:28-29 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; for our God is a consuming fire. God Himself is a consuming fire. The Holy Spirit appeared as tongues of fire over the heads of the anointed on the day of Pentecost. The angelic seraphim are seen to be ministers of fire, used to purify: Isa 6:6-7 Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar.And he touched my mouth, and said: "Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven." So, if God is a consuming fire, what does the fire that He is consume? All that is not gold. All that is not incorruptible and pure (gold does not tarnish/rust). We must be purified of the dross in our hearts, our souls. All that is carnal and stands in the way of living out of the spirit of love, joy and peace found in Him. All that is wicked, selfish, hurtful, and keeps us from Life. All that keeps us from being able ministers of the life, love, and truth of God to others. If you want to serve, if you want authority in the kingdom of God, it is trial by fire for you. Mal 3:2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? "For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap; Mal 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, till they present right offerings to the LORD. This is a of course a prophecy addressing the sons of Levi. The Levites were the priests in Israel, and the foreshadow of those who are called to be ministers (that’s conceivably any of us) of the life of God. In Revelation, a book full of fiery workings of God, we see that those who are overcomers are to be priests of God, ministering priestly blessing with authority in the earth as a result. In order to be a fit priest, you will have to be refined with the fires of God. In the Revelation, we see a lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone. Back in the Greek world in which this picture was written into words, there would have been little confusion as to the purpose of this lake of fire. In Greek temples, fire and brimstone were used to purify divine temple vessels and instruments. Brimstone is sulfur, a purifying agent that can also be used to cleanse wounds (though it hurts like hell to do so). Fire and brimstone = “divine purification”. That which is to be divinely purified goes through fire and brimstone to be cleansed and deemed worthy to serve in the temple. So, what do we have for “hell” in the NT? We have Hades, the realm of the grave and unperception; we have one time only the Greek word “tartaroo” which is a place of holding, awaiting judgement. KELANDON: would you provide some info on “tartaroo”, translated “hell” in some versions of this passage: 2Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment; And we have “gehenna” which was the place in the valley of Hinnom outside Jerusalem where trash was burned. This is the word Jesus mostly used when warning people about the fires of “hell.” It suggests a place where trash is burned out of us, because I can assure you that our Father considers none of His children, no matter how wayard, to BE trash to be burned into obliteration. It did not enter into Jehovah’s mind to offer the children of Israel to be sacrificed in fire. In old English, “hell” simply meant a hidden place, where you hide something or go to hide. “Helling your potatoes” meant turning them back under the earth. This is a very abbreviated peek at hell. For it to really start coming together, it helps to look at the numerous scriptures which contain the word in some English translations, and see which term is being used. Is it talking about the grave (death and unknowing), about a place of fiery destruction of garbage (gehenna), or a place of holding a prisoner in a cell until a judgement is rendered? I noted in my last post that death is to be destroyed in the end and that death and hell are cast in the end of the Revelation into a lake of fire and brimstone—divine purification. The result is death is done away with. The wages of sin are stated to be death, not “everlasting torture in fires of hell”. Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Death and hell are two different things cast into the lake of fire. So death does not equal hell. And the wages of sin is death, not hell. Perhaps hell’s purpose is something other than endless punishment for dying in your sins. Re 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; 1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. Re 21:4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more... So, as death is done away with by the working of God’s divine purifcation symbolized by this lake of fire, sin has somehow been done away with in the process, because if there were sin remaining, its wages would be death. It is also highly useful to realize that the word translated “tormented” (used in association with suffering in hell) is a Greek word which literally means “touchstoned.” A touchstone was a stone used to test gold to verify that it is actually gold. “The touchstone is the key to understanding divine judgment. We are to become as gold refined in fire.” We can see that none of us who wishes to enter into God, can avoid the purifying and testing fires and the touchstoning process to determine if we are yet purified gold: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them. I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, the LORD is my God" (Zechariah 13:9). "…you greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, you are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:6-7). "I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich…" (Revelation 3:18). We see God continually represents Himself and His refining processes as being of that of fire purifying gold and silver. Fire is not to be feared. It is to be embraced. Embrace the flame. The flame rids us of what we wish to shed and leaves us with gold which is that which is divine and incorruptible. God is a consuming fire. If you are afraid of the fire, then you are afraid to enter into God and of being changed. Yes, the processes in our lives can be painful and bitter. Fire does hurt that which can be hurt by fire. It will cause loss and destruction. It’s the price we pay to attain incorruption (a place where we cannot be corrupted by any influence any longer). And it’s not literal, just as you and I are not literal bars of gold and God is not literally a figure of flames somewhere off in the sky. Isn’t it time the children of God put aside wretched and fearful pagan perceptions? 2 Peter 2:10-13 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. This sounds like a natural cataclysm, but we can remember that God is concerned with spiritual conditions, and that heavens and earths are symbols of inner microcosms of our being and the collective realm of those things for all humankind. We see that ultimately all things are to go through the transforming and refining fires of God Who will make all things new through the process. A new heavens is a new kind of rulership (spiritual) within us. A new earth is a newly reformed soul and body to reflect the life of the spirit. The outer world will also no doubt change to reflect the change of its inhabitants. God is fervent heat. The “wrath” of the Lamb is the fervent jealous desire over His possession. It will consume all that stands in the way of its rightful property..which is us. 1Co 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. We are not destroyed by the fire, we are saved by and through it. Shadrack, Meschack, and Abedniggo in the firery furnace...only their bonds were destroyed in the fire, but they survived, and a fourth appeared in the fire with them, a “son of the gods.” The Son of God is with us in the fiery trial. Can anyone tear this all down and show me that the fires of God are not to redemption and purification, but for the “just” torture for all the unbelievers and resisters to the love of God? Can you reconcile a God Who called the fires of child sacrifice to Molech an “abomination” with a God Christians believe will roast billions of His own babies in the fires of His own creation run amok? You can’t push it off onto a “satan”. That is entirely extra-biblical. There is no association of satan with fire. God is the One associated continually with fire. God comes for us with refining fire. It wouldn’t matter either way, however. God is the sovereign captain of the ship of all His creation, including the “adversary” of His creation. Isa 45:6-7 I am Jehovah, and there is none else; forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things. De 32:39 "'See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Mighty God is in control of all agencies of His creation. They serve Him. He is master of life and death, peace and evil, wounding and healing, all powers and principalities in heavens and in earth. We are not to fear any adversary. “Satan” literally means “adversary”, by the way. It is not a name, just a word. That would be another good discussion: satan, devils, demons, and angels. Lots of silly extra-biblical superstitions mixed in with those terms too, which should not surprise us. I will get to the “eternal” nature of hell and torment next. I’m of course curious to hear how this look at fire and hell strikes anyone who is interested. And this is a severe distillation of many detailed writings and expositions on the matter I could refer one to. [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 20:09: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 20:28
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quote:Tartaroô is a verbification of Tartaros, meaning literally "to Tartaros" someone. From that it gets the meaning, "to throw into Tartaros." You can read about Tartaros (or the Latin "Tartarus") in any book on classical mythology (or in this Wikipedia article). It had always been the nastier part of the underworld, reserved for bad folks, but during Roman times (concurrent with 2 Peter), it came to resemble something rather like the current-day pop culture image of Hell: a lake of fire, etc. I am not a scholar of the Hebrew tradition of the afterlife, but if there was any concept of Hell in the modern sense among the ancient Jews, Tartaros would not be an unfair Greek translation of a Hebrew word for Hell. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, November 3 2005 20:42
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Thanks, Kel. And is there anything one CAN'T find in Wilkipedia? I'm seeing a common theme about Tartarus: "As a place so far from the sun and so deep in the earth, Tartarus is hemmed in by 3 layers of night, which surrounds a bronze wall which in turn encompasses Tartarus." "The gods of Olympus eventually defeated the Titans and they were cast into Tartarus. They were guarded by giants, each with 50 enormous heads and 100 strong arms, who were called Hecatonchires." "In Roman mythology, Tartarus is the place where sinners are sent. Virgil describes it in the Aeneid as a gigantic place, surrounded by the flaming river Phlegethon and triple walls to avoid sinners escaping from it." A recurring theme is that it is a place of holding, strongly protected or guarded against escape. This is the point of Peter in using the term, to show the imprisonment and taking of functional power from corrupt messengers of God where they are held until judgement. 2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into Tartarus and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment; Young’s Literal Translation-For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved, [ Thursday, November 03, 2005 20:49: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 1851
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written Friday, November 4 2005 00:09
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Still about the spirits and afterlife and all... "5 For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6) Dead have no feelings, nothing to do, they're not conscious. "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish." (Psalms 146:4) E: Oh, and back when Adam did the unforgivable, Jehovah told him that "for dust you are and to dust you will return." So, basically, he wasn't anything before Jehovah created him, and he would return to the nothingness. No spirits or anything. Just gone. "He said these things, and after this he said to them: "Lazarus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep." Therefore the disciples said to him: "Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well." Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. At that time, therefore, Jesus said to the outspokenly: "Lazarus had died--."" (John 11:11-14) Jesus spoke of death as a kind of deep sleep without dreams. To Jesus who had powers given to him by God, it was easy to 'awaken' Lazarus, but for everyone else he was just.. dead. Gone and buried. :\ But that's why it was called a miracle, of course. Also, Stefanos was said to have fallen asleep when he was stoned. Paul also said in his letter to Corinthians that some had fallen asleep, and these both meant that they had died. How about *why* do we die? [ Friday, November 04, 2005 00:13: Message edited by: Pien' Kiusanhenki ] -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Friday, November 4 2005 07:57
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quote:Which is better, the man who holds his kid's hand in the fire or the one who puts a bullet through the kid's head? You're describing the latter. Just think about it. Also, Satan wants us to believe that condemnation isn't eternal, or that hell isn't real. That way, we can sin all he wants us to without fear of punishment. quote:Okay, so I got one part of my statement a little off, a small edit can allow it to stand. "I believe that the Holy Spirit in me brings me to the conclusion, when reading scripture, that is similar to many who have come before me, and therefore that conclusion is valid. You, correct me if I'm wrong, but with few words, please, believe that the Holy Spirit, through spiritual gifts and illumination, has revealed the intent/correct interpretation of scripture to the people who taught you, whether through literature or personal contact. Or conclusions are contradictory, and therefore one or both must be inaccurate or false." MIDWAY EDIT: And dang for hitting the "post" button before I realize that I'm not done. quote:Yay for Thuryl. And Syn, you're putting way to many words into your responses. I already knew you would say this: quote:I knew you would say that because you've said it before. I simply wanted to be sure, and to have a definate: quote:What you've said, is that no matter what I choose to do with my life, I will enter the "Kingdom of Heaven" as you see it, which can only be a good thing. You're saying with this simple yes, that anyone can be as evil as they please, and it won't matter. I could walk over to the girls' dorm, rape a few and murder the rest, and then go eat some babies, and I'd still end up in "heaven", whether or not I believed that those sins were forgiven. (Keep in mind, I wouldn't EVER do that, because I find it sick and disgusting.) Sounds sick? It is, and it's what your "yes" says. I urge you to reconsider. [ Friday, November 04, 2005 08:13: Message edited by: Desert Pl@h ] -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Friday, November 4 2005 09:39
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Desert P. Not what I’m saying at all. If you want to enter into the kingdom of heaven you have to enter into the fire that is God. No free admission for anyone. You have to be wholly transformed and renewed and it is an intensive and lengthy process. The fact that Christ has determined to collect in full on the salvation He bought for all doesn't change the means necessary to bring everyone into it. Only the scope of His work is changed to include all and not some. Why is that difficult to comprehend? God has no trouble accosting a murderer of Christians on the road to get his attention, if it’s His choice for that man’s way to come into a new awareness of Him. Is it coercion? Nope. But it’s highly persuasive. Some are persuaded by gentle wooing, and some are persuaded with a two-by-four to the back of the head. Whatever it takes to break the horse or the stubborn will of the rebellious child. All that is darkness and death and sin must be removed from the heart, including the heart of the “saved believer”. He says He will save each man in his own order. He has to do a lot of work in us to make us a completely new creation. Belief in Him and His payment for our sin is just the very beginning of the “salvation” process. Any good Father raising children holds them in a firm grip of wise discipline along with the free flow of the love, affection, and gifts. Because God is love does not mean His disciplines will not be painful or protracted when necessary to get our attention and to correct us. Just because God is not going to bbq you forever if you don’t catch the boat, doesn’t mean you aren’t going to endure severe trials. Look at the price the Jews have been paying for the last 2000 years. God’s judgements can be truly terrible to endure. The thing is, that they are ultimately unto correction and life, not death and destruction and surrender to the adversary in capitulation. God is patient in His outworkings and inworkings. He’s permitted 2000 years of gross mixture and outright apostasy in the churches. There’s a lesson we’ll eventually all get from that in hindsight too. Some people will take a long time to learn their lessons and put their former ways behind them. But God has all the means necessary to discipline, correct, judge, and redeem any person, no matter how reprobate. So much of the reason so much of humankind has not been keen on embracing its Father is because the view they have been given of that Father is hopelessly conflicted and even revulsive. Who can blame them for rejecting a “gospel” which is precious little good news at all? When God is rightly seen for Who He is, He becomes much more attractive. If the penalty of eternal torture is removed from you, and the result is that you immediately wish to go out and sow to the flesh and live selfishly, and trample on others, then you have never been serving God out of love or loyalty in the first place, and you have no love for righteousness. You have merely been avoiding punishment out of self-interest. That’s not the kind of family God fashions or the kind of person given authority in His kingdom. Sin falls away from us, because we have learned the principles of why it is not desirable or worthwhile. It loses its lustre. So if it’s in your heart to go reap to the wind, you’d better go do it and get it over with, because you aren’t fooling God with outward behavior when your heart’s not really in it. It makes me chuckle how this exact response you gave is the one most Christians always immediately come back with when you try to take their hell away from them. All they can see is there is no longer reason not to sin, nor restraint from doing so. Does God wish to motivate us with fear of a negative or hope and belief and pleasure in a positive? We have every reason not to sin. The wages of sin is death. We reap what we sow. The ways of love are peaceable and life-giving, and exponentially rewarding. I love God because I believe in Who and what He is, and that the ways of love are a truly wonderful and desirable thing. EDIT: Reworked [ Friday, November 04, 2005 14:24: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, November 4 2005 09:45
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A Vatican cardinal said Thursday the faithful should listen to what secular modern science has to offer, warning that religion risks turning into "fundamentalism" if it ignores scientific reason. *this message sponsored by the number 19* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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La Canaliste
Member # 5563
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written Saturday, November 5 2005 11:06
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Keep posting, Synergy. I love the way you make me think. Edit: yes, I know you don't know who the hell (gehenna, purifying fire, whatever) I am, or what I think or stand for, but just do it anyway. [ Saturday, November 05, 2005 11:10: Message edited by: saunders ] -------------------- I am a pale shadow of the previous self. quote: Deep down, you know you should have voted for Alcritas! Posts: 387 | Registered: Tuesday, March 1 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, November 5 2005 11:44
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Hey, thanks for that Saunders. I don't need to know what your beliefs may be, but it's good to know that something I'm writing is worth some contemplation. I wish everyone who has any belief system about God, would be willing to at least consider that the very nature of humankind has been to take spiritual things and twist and lower them with earthly thinking. Scripture sure made a good point of it when Paul talked about two entirely different minds working in us. Which means so many of our various views on the nature of God, His purposes, and who we are are easily skewed. I think we'd do well to keep an open mind that there may be much God wishes to correct in our thinking, but it may not be readily available in organized religious belief systems. It amazes me how fearful it seems to be to come to the realization that some cherished belief has been in error, even if it is heinous and would be wonderful to be proven wrong. It is so hard for so many of us to really believe God could be as masterful and wise and good as He truly is. Partly because we haven't seen where it's all going yet, and life and the world is still quite messy and painful. But it's all part of the necessary process to get where we are all going, and we are all going to go there together. No one gets left behind. No "Home Alone" scenarios in God's house in the end. I'll be writing something on "eternity" in the Bible next—maybe later today—because it really completes the picture I've been painting (with a thousand words). -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |