God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! )
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| Author | Topic: God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! ) |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 07:01
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It wasn't that long I guess, but formulating a reply will take a bit since it took me five minutes just to decide how to begin. While your waiting would you mind answering a few more questions? Since you believe Jesus to be completely human just like us, what then are your thoughts on the 'virgin birth' and the ressurection? -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 10:07
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quote:The latter first: I certainly believe in the resurrection. Lazarus was resurrected too, and he was human, though Lazarus was resurrected in his old body only to die again at some later point. There is a little-noted scripture that states that upon Jesus’ death and resurrection there was an earthquake and numerous graves were opened and other persons also were resurrected and seen by many. Jesus was connected and in harmony with the life of God to the degree where the incorruptible life of the Spirit could not be held back by a little thing like the death of the physical body. I understand that the physical realm is something of a pale shadow of the spiritual universe which is the more real of the two. That’s a mind-blower because all we’ve consciously known is the physical and what could seem more real? We have a spirit body within though, which is our more true being and form of being. Paul talked a little about the spirit body which is promised to the overcomer, even as he shuddered at the thought of having no body at all upon leaving his physical form. Jesus was resurrected in this spirit body, yet it has distinctive features which seem to marry the heavenly with the earthly. It’s a fusion of the two. Jesus at times appeared entirely corporeal and Thomas put his fingers into the nail marks at one point. He ate with them. He was seen for 40 days by many people. At another point he wasn’t even recognized by his disciples walking with him on the road. The body is somehow both flesh and spirit fused, bypassing the laws which govern the physical. He could walk through a wall, yet we’re not talking about a ghost. The promise to all who enter fully into the life of God as Jesus demonstrated was this kind of “new creation” body. The ark of the covenant is a good symbol for God’s intention for humankind. It was made of gnarly gopher wood which is extremely twisty and knotty wood that grows in the desert. A fine layer of gold (which represents the divine and incorruptible, as gold is beautiful and does not tarnish) was beaten so thinly onto the surface of the ark that it became transparent and you could see all the wood and its grains and texture and “imperfections”. This is what a Son looks like....humanity, quirks, personalities showing through the divinity of God. We don’t lose our humanity...we put on the divinity. We don’t really know much about it yet, because it hasn’t been the time in the earth yet for humankind to really begin to enter into fully what Jesus demonstrated, though I think spiritually we can look forward to some dramatic new steps and expansion to occur. I do believe we are in the time of a transition between ages after about 2000 years of the “Church age”. It always gets bigger and better with God. The next things to unfold in the earth will blow away the relative wonders of the last age. It would be appropriate to mention that while Christianity has somehow come to fixate on a far off heaven which you need only die in your physical body to gain full admittance into, I don’t see Jesus or Scripture ever really saying any such thing. There is a spiritual realm all about us. There is no place heaven, but there is a heavenly realm, the spiritual realm where God rules through spiritual law, as the physical realm is ruled by the laws of the physical. The spiritual realm is not just some glorified invisible three-dimensional celestial playground. It operates in very different ways, just as the language of spirit all throughout scritpures and in prophecies is highly symbolic. The language of spirit leaves the literal and the concrete of the physical world behind. For instance, ministers who have seen “evil spirits” via spiritual faculties (we have spiritual eyes and physical eyes—all our senses have spiritual counterparts we can learn to use), see something in the same place at the same time, but describe it entirely differently. Spiritual vision is very shaped by our own uniqueness and speaks to us in relevant and typically symbolic terms. We project our concept of what “fear” looks like and that is how a spirit of fear appears to us in the realm of spirit. There is no literal little “imp” standing over there which literally is a spirit of fear. Spirit is just an energy anyway. I see lots of dialogue in the scriptures which point to a new world being fashioned out of this world we know now...not by blowing it up and starting over, as if God finally has to admit what a failure His first attempt was (what kind of loser God do we we think we have, anyway?) All things are made new because when the spirit of God, of love begins to really take root in humanity and more and more of the hampering crud of natural-minded thinking and religion is shed, people will begin to change in amazing ways, accomplish amazing things, and even the whole world as we have known it will change to reflect our spiritual projection of it, upon it, if you will. That’s just my inkling of how it works in a general sense. I am convinced this natural world reflects the spiritual condition of its inhabitants and in a sense we bind ourselves to physical laws of death and decay by massively collectively believing into it. The power of belief is tremendous, and because we have spiritual faculties and power of some degree even in a detached state, what we see of ourselves and our world in our minds is what we perpetuate. When we start inwardly seeing things differently (which the Mind of Christ/God working in us enables), then all the outward, including our very own bodies begins to change. We can see a small degree of how this works by somatization—the effect of the mind and emotions upon our physical bodies. Thoughts have energy, just as spirit is energy. Frankly, I have no idea where one stops and the next begins, because all things are energy ultimately, and all we are really talking about here is different frequencies. Feelings of love and feelings of fear have distinctive energetic patterns and frequencies associated with them, and they do have an effect on our whole physical being. This is why our attitudes and words towards each other are important. We really can bless or curse people with our words and attitudes. As James said, the tongue is indeed a little rudder steering a mighty ship. A spiritually grounded person can counter the negative attitudes of others. We are not necessarily vulnerable, thankfully. So, what I was getting to is that I see God’s future working in this world (and as described in scripture) as the transforming of this world through its citizens, or as Paul described it, as the “body of Christ” or the “anointed body” working in union with the mind of God. This will probably have little to do with the pale shadow of that promise we have seen so far called “Church”. I don’t see humans or this planet going away for a long long time. There is lots to do and get right here, and after that there is a huge universe out there with God knows what in it or what to do in it. Don’t you want to know? But we have our own planet to perfect first. We have to learn to love each other and see what is accomplished through that way of being. Heaven as we have imagined it is really the “Kingdom of God” coming down to earth (as depicted in the New Jerusalem symbolically in Revelation). Heaven and hell really are experiences we have within and reflect the condition of our souls. The heavenly spiritual realm is destined to fuse with the earthly realm we have known and make something that is both heavenly and earthly, yet neither, but something new. I don’t know about you, but I love this world and its beauty, its people, and its potential. I don’t want to surrender it to defeate or destruction or run away from it and laze around in the sky as some kind of “reward”. Real reward for being faithful to Love is being given privilege and authority to bless and transform one another and this creation to the perfection it is designed for and promised for. We got a lot of work to do as we grow up. The garden has not been much tended. The reward is the privilege to serve with authority. So, um, yes, I believe in resurrection, and I believe it is necessary for all of us to enter into to that new spirit-body life ultimately be enabled to complete the true work we are called to do in heaven and earth. We are made to work, to wrestle with elements, to explore, to expand, to create, not to laze around self-indulgently, congratulating we privileged few on our narrow escape. That’s just perverse and does great discredit to our wise and mighty and purposeful God. The first the latter: VIRGIN BIRTH. Yeeps, a very sensitive subject for sure, because huge idols have been erected around this one too. But before exploring that a bit, I want to ask, why is it necessary that Jesus be born of something alien to humankind to fulfill his role or to be connected with the divine? If we are challenged to enter into the very same life and perfection, as in running a race to seize the prize, then if Jesus was something we by default can never be (because what, his blood or genetics are only half human?) then we really have no hope. But we are all called the sons of God. Jesus said, “You will do greater things than I have done.” Jesus came to talk about a spiritual rulership, a spiritual God, and the spiritual condition of hearts instead of the outer trappings of law and religion and literal kings on thrones which the Jews hoped and believed their Savior would assume (lusting for the earthly glory of Kind David again). Jesus came and said it’s not about flesh and blood anymore, and he made it clear salvation was avaiable to all humankind, not a specific ethnic or religious population. What possible difference can your flesh and blood make to entitle you to a new life fused with the divine in God? Flesh is no limitation. Jesus made a strong point to demonstrate this too by picking cussing fishermen and sleazy tax collectors to be his apostles. Flesh, blood, mind, intellect, etc. are not the qualifiers or enablers of spiritual might and worthiness. Jesus didn’t have to be divinely different from his brothers to do what he did. We are the ones with our eyes on flesh and blood (even hoping to see him return in flesh and blood despite scripture saying “hereafter will we see him no more as we have seen him, after the flesh.” So, up front, if we understand how the spiritual realm works, we can’t claim that flesh or blood or genetics can have any role in granting access to the life of God. Jesus did not have any requirement to be born of a woman who had never had sex or had some “divine” seed planted in her as apposed to the perfectly natural seeds we all come from, yet don’t disqualify us from being called up into the divine so we too may reflect perfectly the life Jesus showed. We have a prophecy or two in Isaiah, I believe, which mentions the future Savior to be born of a virgin. Thing is, that word “virgin” in Hebrew isn’t talking about her sexual status like we use the word now. It simply meant a young marriagable maiden. But the Jews were good at misinterpreting and carnalizing their scriptures, no different from Christians today. They built up a great hope and mythology of some extra-earthly superhero who would rule on the literal throne of Israel and restore their glory and riches to them and subdue all their enemies. I don’t believe in the necessity for “infallibility” in scriptures. God permits our quirks and dare I say, imperfections and limitations, of humanity to show through the divine gold. You don’t have to be “perfect” as we judge it to be the vessel of God and an agent of life. Peter and Paul taught two different gospels. The four gospels do not agree on various details of Jesus’ life, words, and deeds. Christians have at some point decided that God gave them a divine textbook which is perfect in every way. God never said any such thing. Have you read Ecclesiastes? Do you follow it as law and truth? Cuz you’d be foolish to do it. It is a poetic book written by Solomon describing life entirely from the perspective of one who has no God. “To be a living dog is better than to be a dead man in the grave.” It’s in your Bible. Is it the Word of God? Nope, it’s a word of a man, but it serves a useful purpose if we have some spiritual discernment. I see all of scripture in this light, not merely the most obvious examples. OT passages describe the sun making a run around the earth like a chariot in the sky, when we all know God knew perfectly well that the earth goes around the sun. Ooops, God permitted the fallible perspective of MAN to be present in that “perfect” book. Moreso that we dare imagine. If we believe in a dynamic and interactive God Who does connect with us and enables our spiritual eyes of discernment, we don’t have to have perfectly pure truth on hand to be able to derive and discern truth. The humanity of the writers of scripture still shows through, and they wrote from the limitations of their time and culture. Paul didn’t think much of women apparently (I’d love to sit down as a therapist with him and find out why), and God didn’t remove that discrimination from him or his writings, though I disagree with his view of women. I admire the hell out of women. They are no less fit to teach, minister, or anything else. They have tremendous strength and courage. Women typically endure pain better than men, etc. Flesh and blood does not differently enable us in God’s eyes. Despite Paul’s personal bias, I see amazingly inspired truths in much of what Paul learned through his spending three years seeking God alone in the deserts of Arabia. Our humanity and imperfection is permitted and not all immediately eradicated. We can see it in the Bible and its inhabitants. It’s not a threat to the presence of the truth and our ability to know it. It does require our personsal responsibility to learn to discern. That takes the anointed mind of the Spirit working actively within. If we lazily stay in our natural means of perception, we get religion and countless denominations instead. And we get deceived and we build fear into our doctrines. History testifies painfully to this fact, but it will not always be the way we have so far witnessed. It gets better. It just hasn’t been time for the step up yet. We had to learn a long, bitter lesson about the futility of trying to bring in the Kingdom through natural effort and largely without the divine interconnection with God which is necessary. We have paid lip service to God but have gone about our business largely on our own terms. It hasn’t concerned me greatly, picking apart New Testament scriptures about the virgin birth, because it’s a very unimportant issue to me. It is possible that it was written in subsequently in an effort to deify the Christ through natural-minded thinking which didn’t understand that Jesus’ very point in coming as man was to show us what we can look like too if we reconnect to our Father. Jesus himself said, “Flesh and blood does not inherit the Kingdom.” How can the nature of Jesus’ own biology enable him to do it? It’s childish thinking. We ever have our eyes on the earthly, the literal, the carnal, flesh and blood. This misunderstanding and obsession is at the heart of Aryan elitism. Even Hitler and the Nazis used Christian doctrine to justify their flesh and blood-obsession. That’s shameful, and Christianity has much accountability on its hands for perpetuating doctrines of flesh and blood which has led to the shedding of much blood. Personally, I don’t believe Jesus was born of a magic sperm and an earthly egg or even a completely heavenly zygote. The baby still gets fed by the placenta of Mary. If literal blood defiles a man, then Jesus was defiled by Mary, for no one was able to be sinless under the law. It makes no difference. It wouldn’t even matter one little bit if Jesus were an “illegitimate” birth. There is no physical deed which can disqualify a person from the divine invitation. There is no taint which cannot be removed. Sexual “sins” are no more tarnishing or wicked than those little white lies we habitually tell, though the earthly consequences may be graver. I would actually take great comfort in knowing Jesus was born as the result of a young loving couple who acted irresponsibly in a moment of passion and faced a stoning death if found out (if I recall Hebrew law correctly). Now that’s human, that I can relate to, and that gives me hope that I can touch the divine depite my own lackings and failings and stupid mistakes. Jesus is a descendant of Rahab the harlot found in Jericho, and David, an adulterer and murderer. What kind of blood is this? Consider also that Joseph was the physical descendant of David the prophecies required for Jesus to be of the line of David. If Joseph had no role at all whatsoever in bringing Jesus into being, then the prophecies were lies. I’m thinking (according also to Occam’s Razor, heh) that the simplest explanation was the true one—Jesus was born of the line of David by the seed of Joseph, and one reason they may have both been traveling around so much together was to escape the judgement of those who knew them back home and would note Mary’s out-of-wedlock pregnancy. A bastard child, a lowly carpenter with prostitutes and street scum for friends, who kicked over the money tables in the temple in a fit of disgust and drove the merchandizers out with a whip (let’s got get the televangelists next!)...This is the guy who still was perfectly qualified and suited to show us what connection with the Divine life of the Father looks like...and wonder of wonders, he then calls all the rest of us bastard (figuratively or literally) lowlifes into the same life. It shows humanity and the divine fused happily together as in the ark, a prefiguring of the Son(s) of God. Because what goes into a man (or woman) can’t defile him or her. There is no unpardonable sin. There is nothing in heaven or earth or hell or the depths of the seas or heights of the skies that can separate us from the love of God. That’s simply the nature of any good parent. And it’s another one of those lovely promises in the scriptures I think we haven’t much believed. [ Wednesday, October 26, 2005 10:33: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 1851
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 11:53
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It's interesting how you can at so many points seem like you really know things and there really is something in you, but then other points show that you're actually pretty far from the truth. I haven't really participated in these kinds of threads before (and when I have, I've been a complete idiot! Sorry about that, by the way), but all your talking just makes me want to start going over the scriptures and start writing. And I'd love to do so now, if it wasn't midnight and I have to be up early tomorrow. And I could talk about these things tomorrow, if I hadn't a full day already. Literally full. Also, I'm Finnish. I like to think my English is pretty good and I can understand everythign I read, but it's not that true. Most of what you say I have to read a couple of times, before I get your point and even then I'm not if I got it right. There's something passionate there, though, it shows. Oh. I hope you don't mind me cutting in? I got fascinated. Anyway. How would you feel if on friday.. I could post something to this. It'll probably be old news by then (as the posting in here never waits), but I'd love to chat about all this. All of religion. I have to try some time, even if I'm not doing it in an entirely right way. Let's see. Also also, synergy. Maybe you have done this in the past, I don't know or remember, but I'm rather curious what'd you get from this. -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6136
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 12:56
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...and the prize to the new evangelist is for Synergy!... How this men can write all that? specially knowing the fact that the 75% of us get scared just with see that hyper-post, scared enough for don't even think in read it. -------------------- Death to my enemies!! Posts: 446 | Registered: Friday, July 22 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 18:22
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Go ahead and cut in, I can't even finish reading it tonight since I have housekeeping, heigyne, and a kid with a sore eye to take care of before I can sleep. I hope you can wait Synergy. ;) -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 18:28
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quote:I’ll be interested to hear what you dig and what you don't. quote:I find that hard to believe. When you do start sharing your thoughts, will you do me a favor and preface it with a little of your background and faith system or whatever seems relevant? quote:Passion—an international lanuage? Your English seems quite good to me. If there’s something you want me to reword or clarify, I’m sure you’ll ask. quote:By all means cut in. quote:Hmm, I scored highest on Liberal Christian Protestant. However, I found, like most tests which ask multiple-choice questions, that I frequently could not find an answer which actually expressed the answer I would like to give, so I had to approximate my answers numerous times. How did you score? Chico, I don't want you to be scared, except on scary night this month. I’m not sure if the title of “evangelist” is as distasteful to you as it is to me, but I’ll assume the best—that you didn’t mean it as an insult. Gizmo, I'm not going anywhere. At your convenience. [ Thursday, October 27, 2005 15:52: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 15:12
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Wow, Synergy, I admire your ability to actually post that monster. :eek: That's something meant to be read over the course of a week. Or tl, dr. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 15:46
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I've been acquring way too many of those darn :eek: faces lately. Of course, it IS nearly Halloween. -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Friday, October 28 2005 07:05
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So, er.. Remember when you said you changed your mind? Me too. I don't think this was a such a good idea, now. Anyway, most of what said about spirits and all that just made absolutely no sense to me. :\ I wouldn't know where to start with all that. Um. Most, or some, people in here know what religion my childhood was most influenced by, but they don't quite understand my standing over that matter. So, in order to at least somehow get rid of those ideas that've stucked into their minds, I'll try and explain myself. Okay? Most of my family from my father's side are Witnesses. My mother used to be one, but she left. My brother is a Witness. I'm not, but I believe they have the truth. I would love to say I am too, but that's not the case. It's not just that I'm not officially a Witness, but I'm not a Witness spiritually. See, '"You are my witnesses," is the utterance of Jehovah--.' (Isaiah 43:10) That's where the name comes from, and that's what it means. Witnesses tell of Jehovah by their words, actions and beliefs. I've not done this, but quite the opposite. When I've taken apart in certain threads I have taken things personally, when those things really had nothing to do with me. I've been rude and certainly even wrong at some points. What I've done, by associating Jehovah to my actions and my words, is shame myself. I'm not a Witness. When I've spoken of Him I didn't do it for Him. I regret that now. I wish you would not call me a Witness. I'm sorry. This is why I hope I didn't say I would post an answer to your post. I don't want to fail again. Still, I felt it was about time I tried to explain something about that. Anyway.. that's all I've got for now, I'm afraid. :\ [ Friday, October 28, 2005 07:22: Message edited by: Pien' Kiusanhenki ] -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Friday, October 28 2005 08:26
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Background: I'm a Dispensational Premillenialist Fundamental Christian, raised through adolesence in a small-town Presbyterian church (USA, a more liberal denomonation, but that's not saying much in Kansas). Currently studying scriptures at Calvary Bible College in Belton, Missouri, where I have near unlimited access to the original Greek and Hebrew meanings and to professors who are willing to explore multiple meanings of unclear passages. quote:Does this statement mean that you don't believe that Jesus was indeed God? Jesus himself said that he was, and interpreting the Bible for what the author's intention is shows that clearly. (It's basic hermeneutics…) quote:Again, do you think Jesus was simply an example or God? quote:Again, author's and speaker's intended meaning. Heaven was spoken of as a place, not a "realm". quote:And that goes against all prophecy in the Bible, I'm sorry. (Yes, I exaggerated, but you get my intended meaning, correct?) quote:So you're saying that we can "unbelieve" death? Sounds like Sphere, anyone ever read that? Anyway, there's no evidence of that. quote:This is all theoretical, I assume? quote:This sounds Jehovah Witnessish, am I correct in assuming so? Maybe it's something else I'm thinking of, but I've heard this before. quote:If you'll think about what the author intended, instead of bringing your own meaning to the text (deductive Bible study, that's called, not a healthy thing), you'll find that Jesus was indeed required to be born of a virgin. Heck, look at the accounts in the gospels of her not being sexed-up by our old pal Joey. quote:Much of this is just false, quite frankly. Again, author's intention. quote:For one thing, it was a common view of women, not just Paul's. Secondly, yet more significant, it fits into the gender roles that God made for us at Creation. Men are psychologically built (often not prepared, etc. with many men these days) to be fathers, protectors, and leaders. Women are built to be mothers, nurterers, and the advisor who always happens to be wiser than the man. There's a reason men have generally been the rulers of society, and it isn't physical strength. (And of course, I admire women too. I find that my loved one has a great deal more common sense than myself, etc.) quote:You go on like this for a long time, and I really wonder where you get the idea about "the next step up" and everything getting better. That's some real faith, real optimism. Your faith falls short, however, when talking about Jesus. A lot of what you say about Jesus is blasphemy, at best. [ Friday, October 28, 2005 08:28: Message edited by: Desert Pl@h ] -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
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written Friday, October 28 2005 08:32
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Faith is as faith does, and talking ain't doing. *this message sponsored by paul harvey* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Friday, October 28 2005 11:19
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I am so coming back to this tomorrow, after sleeping a good night's sleep. If only it were not near midnight. I've got like 50 verses to check for each of those quotes. Because they're easier to answer to. I'll probably do that anyway, even after Synergy gets here and posts more gigantic stuff, and I'll get confused again. Growr. >:\ EDIT: + a partial and a delicate snore, with some snoozing and wild head dropping. [ Friday, October 28, 2005 11:20: Message edited by: Pien' Kiusanhenki ] -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, October 28 2005 12:57
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quote:Suuure they are. That must be why Margaret Thatcher achieved a greater degree of political change than any other British Prime Minister in three decades before her. (Let's not debate the merits of that change; for better or worse, she was clearly no slouch when it came to achievement.) New Zealand Prime Minister Helen Clark has achieved a similar degree of change in her country, although to somewhat different ends. For the most part, the reason women haven't achieved much in leadership positions is because they haven't been given the opportunity. I don't know if I'd call Ann Coulter or Laura Schlessinger much of a "nurturer" either. Don't start arguing about whether such women are the rule or the exception; the point is that they exist. [ Friday, October 28, 2005 13:03: Message edited by: Explode Thuryl Now ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Friday, October 28 2005 13:37
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Despite how easy it is for me to write at length about a subject with which I am passionate and fascinated, I am ambivalent about doing so for the reasons I stated earlier. I don’t think much is often accomplished by arguing even simple facts, let alone beliefs and ideas. I like to talk about this stuff, but not to hope to change anyone’s mind with it, because it just doesn’t often happen that way. Salmon is entirely right. It’s the walk, not the talk which demonstrates faith and which has the real power of impact. Of course, there is not much else to do in an online forum besides talk, but I want to make it clear my intention is to explore and challenge ideas, not prosletyze. I got nothing to sell. Desert Pl@h, you kept asking me about whether or not I believe in the deity of Jesus, yet I answered that question at length and I think not ambiguously when Gizmo asked it. All I can think is that you didn’t really read my explanations before responding. Most of your rebuttals seem to generally involve saying that that’s not what Bible scholars get from the scriptures or that it simply goes against all of scripture, without much at all in way of elaboration or examination. Let’s all keep in mind that what is at debate is our understanding of and interpretation of scripture (and hopefully thinking for ourselves, does this add up? Is this consistent? Is it possible there are other perfectly good and non-threatening meanings and reasons this is here?), as well as our assumed requirement for what the scriptures have to be (are they a Divine Textbook perfectly transcribed from the Heavens or anything slightly more human and contextual, like a believer writing a letter of advice to a specific body of believers in Asia Minor in the first century?) Should it truly be difficult to imagine that majority belief (interpretation) is often wrong, and once wrong beliefs get rooted, like bad law on the books, they are notoriously difficult to eradicate? They become de facto by popular belief. As a courtesy, I will sum it up again though. I see Jesus as the premiere Son of God, just as we are also called sons of God and called into the sonship role Jesus demonstrated. Jesus was not God any more or any less than you and I “are” God. Our spiritual genetics is God stuff. We are of the kind of our Father, and like begets like according to both natural and spiritual law. We are not our Father, just as Jesus was not his Father, but we are in the God family with its qualities. Jesus said “I and the Father are One.” We are also called to be one with the Father (and one body together with our fellows) and to share the same “mind of Christ”. Will you quote what you believe Jesus said to claim he was God Himself? And just for fun, what do you make of the following? Ps 82:6 I say, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; Joh 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'? Because we have believed a lie and have seen ourselves through the eyes of sin and death (which come with acquiring our own judging of good and evil), we have lost recognition and exercise of our spiritual faculties and nature which are of our Father. It’s dormant there inside us, in our spirits, seeking reconnection with our Father who is the Sun in our galaxy, the Source of all life and the spirit of love which sums up all His myriad qualities. Because I believe we in time project and create an inner and outer environment which matches what we “see” and believe inside, we have shaped a corrupted and warring world to reflect our sense of lack and unworthiness—which breeds fear, which we all know leads to the Dark Side™. We have also recreated God in our own (false) image, assigning Him the base weaknesses, means, and limitations of mankind in its delirium of travail and disconnect. I see that Jesus came to show us what we are, but aren’t being, to show us what it looks like (Salmon approves?) not just tell us. It is easy for me, observing human history and human behavior to see how easy it is to build up faulty systems of understanding and doctrine for many centuries, eventually believed with such massive inertia that it becomes unthinkable to consider that someone way back when got it wrong. One billion people believing wrongly for 1700 years doesn’t make a thing any more the truth than the first time it was uttered by some mad monk™ or guy on the street corner who was a bit out to lunch. The effect of one very human and fallible man like Augustine or Dante upon perception and belief can be devastating when we follow men like sheep instead of “the mind of Christ” given to us to ascertain the truth of God. quote:Semantics are getting blurry here. I don’t disagree that scriptures talk about heaven in terms of a place, but my point is that that “place” is spiritual in nature and is nothing like our idea of “place” in the physical realm. That “place” is inside us and experienced through our spirits wherever we happen to physically be, rather than being in a specific location in the universe. We don’t “go” anywhere when we enter the heavenly realm, heaven, the Kingdom of Heaven. Our spiritual condition and “placement” transforms. I don’t believe that by dying physically we are suddenly perfected and enter into some fullblown spiritual condition we never aspired to in our living life. Why live at all if that’s the case? It makes a good case to have someone knock you off or even consider suicide. But the Kingdom of Heaven is shown to be a place of reward unlike salvation/opening of the door to that realm. It is a prize to be fought for, a race to be run, a crown to be won. True salvation is salvation from ourselves, our former ways of thinking and being. There are no short cuts. We have to have that life and transformation inworked. That’s a scriptural principle, and that principle isn’t going to be circumvented by the momentary state of one’s physical body. Authority is not given to children. It’s simple. It’s given to sons who grow up and show themselves responsible and mature enough to start taking on the business of the father. quote:The meaning I get is that you hope to convince me that what I have offered is wrong without any direct examination of the points themselves. quote:I haven’t read Sphere. It’s an esoteric topic, but yes, I believe that much of what we presently perceive as reality is shaped by the collective projection of all humankind and its thinking. I have two small related examples. One: a biologist named Bruce Lipton has written on research which indicates that a woman’s perception of her environment while pregnant (is she afraid, angry, at peace and rest, happy, secure, etc.) selects the genes of the baby. Similarly, we can activate and shut down our own genes based on how we are perceiving our environment. If we are in fight and fear mode, we are not in growth mode and our bodies adapt accordingly. Thoughts translate into genetics ultimately. Two: my own experience, which others may have noticed in some way for themselves. When I am tired, grumpy, depressed or angry, and I look at myself in the mirror, I can appear quite different to myself than I do at other times—generally more ugly to my eyes. In an extreme case, you get body dysmorphia, where a person does not see in the mirror at all what their physical appearance actually is. Or flipping it around, when we fall in love with someone, it is remarkable how attractive they can become. Obviously, nothing physical has changed, but our perception of our environment has changed to the degree that the physical actually can appear different to us. These just hint at a deeper principle in operation I believe. It’s not theory that thoughts emanate and are made of energies which affect our bodies. Cognitions and emotions both have many notable physiological effects upon our bodies. quote:Riibu will probably be able to say better than I could. I don’t know much of specific JW doctrine, but I know there are similarities at points. JW’s have some truth as do all denominations of belief. There’s no corner on the market of truth. God rains on the just and on the unjust. The conceit of so much religion is to imagine it has some exclusive truth. I see all things as mixture. It’s our job to exercise spiritual faculties to divide and discern, because there is a lot of bathwater, and also a lot of babies within it. God condescends to be known in many limited and even distasteful ways. He entertains many of our childish notions of Him until we grow up more and can move on to more mature thinking. So He meets us in all that foolish pomp and ceremony and tired ritual we call Church. But He meets others entirely outside those confines and limitations too. I don’t care about someone’s originating belief system. I care to find people with open, inquiring hearts and minds, who have a passion for God and love and truth more than for defending any system or tradition of men. Again, on the virgin birth, I explained my thoughts on New Testament accounts on the matter, and I invite you to examine the Old Testament “virgin” in Hebrew and decide for yourself. The best thing you can do for yourself in seminary is to question everything “they” tell you and not surrender authority to those following long-standing, but perhaps not closely scrutinized tradition. We are of a modern western culture, and the Bible comes from an ancient eastern tradition. Two very different mindsets. Yet I see so much of modern Christian thought trying to ascertain meaning through English words and western thinking (and philosophy). More importantly, on the Virgin Issue, I’d like someone to address my simple, logical query why flesh and blood signifies ANYTHING of usefulness to us where our spiritual condition is concerned, and based on the new paradigm of inner spirituality Jesus came to reveal? Why would it make any difference at all whether Jesus was born of man and woman? And if he was not, where is our hope to aspire to be a perfect reflection of him? If he was not one of us, then he had advantages we cannot hope to have and our invitation to do so is pathetically insulting. Was Jesus a magically-enabled superman/God alien to us in all but appearance as flesh, or truly our elder brother sharing in our humanity, first born Son of many. I should also point out that 1) The virgin birth is entirely unimportant to me based upon my understanding of salvation and the character and motivation of God. It wouldn’t make a difference either way because I do not believe in flesh and blood having anything to do with our spiritual ability. What I do see is a lot of scripture given as concrete earthly symbols of spiritual realities (the blood of sacrifices, laws concerned with carnality, the creation and garden allegories, etc.) 2) This is a personal conclusion and ongoing inquiry of my own, initially prompted for me by similar thinking on the part of a friend a couple years back. The thing is, I can no longer find any sensibility or purpose to a virgin birth in context of the God I know. I can see a lot of ways such a carnal aspect wound up being so central to religious-minded thinking though. quote:Which author are you referring to? What’s false? The sun really does run around the earth? It IS better to be a living dog than a dead man? Peter’s gospel of grace mixed with works or Paul’s gospel of grace alone? quote:Tsk tsk. Not at creation, at man’s fall from his divine union with God symbolized in the allegory of the garden and the trees. And let’s not add to the “made roles” of men and women. It was simply stated that women would become subordinate to men as part of the curse, and it is a curse, because it is not God’s order, nor the one we need cling to when we move back into spiritual union and principles of love. Let me say a little more why this can be. When you lack harmony and love, law becomes necessary to keep order. When you lose inner rule, outer rule becomes required. Man and women were co-equals in creation, a beautiful splitting of distinct aspects of God, and powerful spiritual symbols in flesh form, not to mention a joyful and beautiful thing for us. Only under a curse where man loses his connection to the divine does he contend with himself. Where there is mature love, no one need rule over anyone. Long-married couples almost become psychic in knowing one another and meeting each other’s needs. When they truly mature in loving each other, no one has any need to rule over the other, because there is no discord to require vying for domination. Man and woman represent spirit and soul. When our souls have fallen out of harmony with and union with the spirit, the soul must be subjected to the rule of spirit until the two become united again. The soul is not evil, just as woman is not inherently inferior or wayward. Initially, Christianity did much to improve the lot of women in a pagan world through its general principles of love and charity. Subsequently, ironically, it has hampered the progress of gender roles and a balanced valuation of women. This too shall pass. Paul (also ironically) made it clear there is “no male or female” in the heavenly realm (in the place where the Godly rule of love has taken root within lives). There is no more value or limitation assigned to you or me or anyone by our flesh, our gender, our genetics, our race, our anything. As much as it is another central issue for me, I’m not going to tackle gender issues here. I suggest that so much of what we have assumed or been taught is somehow inherently “male” or “female” is a complete crock, and results mostly from millennia of roleplay and modeling from day one in baby’s life and a social environment in which tremendous pressure and modeling is put upon us our whole lives. I know women who make better “men” than men, and vice-versa. I think it’s high time we let go of the boxes and let people just be who they are and do what they do best without prejudice based on gender. Who says what our roles in life have to look like because of the biology of our bodies? Some of the world is well ahead of Christianity on this awareness and concern. quote:At best, huh? If you mean my faith is not centered in a Jesus Deity, you’re right. I love and admire my big brother tremendously. Show me where Jesus asked to be worshipped as deity? What this difference in “faith” has given me is tremendous faith in my Father and in my many brothers and sisters who also are called to reflect the anointed image of God as Jesus did so well. It’s our birthright, and he called us back into it and showed us it could be done. My faith means I am no longer permitted to condemn, judge or despise any of brothers and sisters in this world. They too have the essence of God within, and are no less beloved and wrought in purpose than I am. They have just as much unique potential, ability, and beauty as I or any other. Seeing Jesus as the Pattern Son instead of an alien deity means humanity for me is lifted out of the mud religion forever berates it and itself back into. This is what is so sad about the state of the Christian faith to me. So little cause for real JOY, hope, or optimism according to their small and selective view of their own God, often patterned after the failings of their own hearts, if they only knew it. There are so many glowing promises of God being all in all in the end, wiping away all tears from all eyes, the salvation of all, all things made new (renewed), the healing of all nations, the kingdoms of the earth all becoming the Lord’s, the summing up of all things in Christ, a feast of Tabernacles which represents the full harvest and which Christians ignore, thinking their firstfruits sampling of the harvest they now have in Pentecost represents the best it gets. There are many unfufilled promises and prophecies about God’s conquering of all hearts and nations, and it’s not at the point of a sword. Christianity largely has a very miserable, pathetic, and loserly view of God. I don’t. I won’t. I can’t. We look like the God we perceive and the God we worship. The size of our hearts reflect the size of our God’s heart. If our God is small and loses many billions of His own kids to an unthinkable fate to some self-made adversary, while running away from His own creation with a handful of His pet favorites, well, what a colossal loser. What a wimp. What a jerk. And what a liar. Sure sounds like human behavior, not that of a sovereign and omiscient and purposeful God Who created this utterly incredible universe. The nature and workings of God excite me, and for good reason. It’s excite-worthy. quote:I kind of like it when you do that, Riibu. [ Saturday, October 29, 2005 17:02: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
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written Friday, October 28 2005 18:55
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I'm not ignoring you, really. It's just turned into a busy week. Hopefully tomorrow night I'll have a couple hours to sit down and write my thoughts. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 05:54
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This is a waste of my time, Syn. Much of our arguments are based on our own perception, which we are both unwilling to change. I percieve your statements are based on nothing, except perhaps human thoughts and theories, as well as your own interpretation of scriptures which you don't believe to come from the word of God. (I'm somewhat guilty of this too, as I'm dispensationalist, which happens to be a human theory on how God deals with man.) You seem to think (correct me if I'm wrong?) that my views are based on millenia-old errors made by a few people, who were studying scriptures that weren't really the word of God, written by people who interjected any bias they had into their writings. Lastly, I'm not quite arguing against you only, and certainly not trying to change your mind. I'm letting the world know what I think and hoping to encourage others who believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, as well as God, and provides a way out of hell for those who believe and trust that he was a final sacrifice for sin. -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 11:53
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My reply which I was until now working on on Word, is about 8 pages long. This includes quotes. I feel like giving up, because the subjects are all so large. I could try tackling them one at a time, but somehow it seems it would be pointless. Still. I could, of course, just copy and translate stuff and that would take less time, but I refuse to not explain them in my own words. I want to know and explain what I've understood. It wouldn't be much of an answer if I didn't get what I was talking about, right? (This is why we study.) Anyway. I'll copy here what I've put down so far. quote:Anyway, there's much, much more, but we'll leave this at here, for now. Okay? Unless you have a week to spare. :\ -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 13:56
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quote:There's no way to avoid human judgement entering into the mix, you know. Even if you decide to accept everything in one version of the Bible at face value, that's still your decision, made by you and based on your judgement. [ Saturday, October 29, 2005 13:57: Message edited by: Explode Thuryl Now ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 16:48
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quote:Please speak freely for yourself. Believe it or not, I am always willing to consider other possibilities when they offer something compelling. All I seek is a harmonious truth that resonates with the nature of the God I have grown to know. I trust that spiritual faculty God gives me to continue taking me in the right direction as I seek with open mind and open heart. I believe God honors the sincere requests of His children to find His truth at any cost. God likes curious and challenging sons who aren’t afraid to ask many questions. There is nearly no primary concept or belief in my Christian faith which has not been turned on its head or revised dramatically over the years of my seeking after truth. When we are spiritually young, we perceive much as children do in the natural. As we grow, our perspectives, rather than realities themselves, change. If we do not insist upon remaining as children in our understanding, our perceptions will change and expand dramatically. The problem with “conservativeness” in general, is simply that God is not conservative. He is all about never-ending growth and maturity. The increase of His Kingdom knows no end, as Daniel stated. He is ever expanding, doing new things, and inviting us further up His vast mountain of truth. There is no end to the depths and riches found within God and His truth. We go as far as we dare. Most of us pitch camp somewhere and get comfortable, but God forever moves on. There is a daunting, but actually wonderful little spiritual principle that the way to new life comes paradoxically through death. A seed goes into the earth and dies to make a new living plant. Jesus died to make a new life possible. The law and its system of ritual was put to an ignoble death in 70 A.D. to make way for the new wine, a new dispensation of God into the earth. If we want to keep growing and moving with God, we are going to die many deaths, deaths to former cherished ways of belief chief among them. It’s only fearful when we don’t understand how a death is necessary for a new and expanded life. When we bury our talents (and our understanding) in the soil we reap no increase. This current “church age” dispensation is going to die too. God has bigger and better things yet ahead. Do you really imagine this is as good as it gets? Are you content with this being as good as it gets? This isn’t merely wishful thinking on part of my own vivid imagination. Many prophecies speak of ages yet to come, dispensations yet to come, if you will. Paul spoke of ages yet to come in which the grace of God was going to be made fully known to this earth. The increase of His Kingdom will see no end, and it is destined to swallow up every last heart and soul in reuniting Father with sons until He is all in all as promised multiple times. This is harmonious with both scriptural promises and with my understanding of the nature of love, of Fatherhood, and my own experience and knowing the character of our God. I see that this is the pattern of God’s dispensing Himself into humankind. We have seen fulfillments of Passover and Pentecost feasts spiritually in the earth so far. Would you care to elaborate on what the dispensationalist viewpoint does with the fulfillment of the feast of Tabernacles? quote:I find it ironic that it has been more your inclination to offer “nothing” to actually engage the points of the arguments I have been making. Why do you say it is my own interpretations of scriptures? I am not that original, and there is nothing new under the sun, anyway. It is the persuasive and resonant spirit, arguments, and scholarship of many others which have served me well to continually help stimulate and shape my beliefs. I see that God gives many pieces to many and we have to poke around if we really want to start putting all the pieces together. quote:Hyperbolic statement, but amusing. I am speaking in terms of mixture, not black and white, not all or nothing. All we have to do is look at God’s messages to the seven churches in Asia Minor around 90 A.D. in John’s Revelation chapters 2 & 3 to see how immediately all kinds of mixture and mischief set into the churches from the get-go. Errors compound over time when we don’t take a fresh, healthy look at old beliefs. Mistakes are made first by one or a few, and then by many through faith in men, through popularity, and through dogma imposed by a political church structure. Any time we lock in our understanding, we close ourselves to improved vision of truth. I suggest God does not magically force out humanness and cultural context when inspiring His seekers and His vessels of communication. Many things God speaks are directed to a time and place and will have much less relevance outside that time or place. Why do we spend so much time worshipping the words of dead men instead of actively seeking that same living God for what He has to say to us for our here and now? EDIT: Riibu, I see your selected passages and that they have a common theme. Will you state the point you wish to be establishing with them? Also, I agree, any one little point, let alone many, about God is potentially vast. I LOVE this about God and truth. I wish I knew better ways to say much more with much less myself. Why don't you just start with picking one or two points to examine or challenge and summarize what you think and believe about it. Then it can be examined deeper if anyone wants to do so. Right now, I still have little idea where you are coming from and what you are getting at. Gizmo: I wait with, um, bated breath. :rolleyes: [ Saturday, October 29, 2005 17:08: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6136
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 17:54
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[brain overload caused by excessive reading] That I would be saying if I really readed that POSTS. Really Synergy, write a book... Lately i feel very weird about god, getting angry with him for every curse that comes to my life... -------------------- Death to my enemies!! Posts: 446 | Registered: Friday, July 22 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 18:13
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Maybe you're focusing on the wrong guy, Chicho. We make a lot of our own luck. And a lot of what we call curses in our lives do an important work in us that would not be possible through some happier means. Also, why do people post just to say I don't read and am not interested in your post? :confused: -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Sunday, October 30 2005 05:20
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quote:"Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight." (Proverbs 3:5,6) Witnesses do not teach their own wordly reasoning. "Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ--." (Colossians 2:8) "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: "He catches the wise in their own cunning."" (1 Corinthians 3:19) And for this also: "We know we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the [power of the] wicked one." (1 John 5:19) These are what I believe in. The Bible says what I want to say much, much better and that's no wonder. They are one of God's gifts to us, so that we may know him and understand him better, and they tell of his plan for us, this world and our future. Also, the previos verses were for Desert Plah's first quote from your big post. I was studying passages about heaven, but it turned out to be a pretty large subject, so that's as far as I got, and I've barely scratched the surface. [ Sunday, October 30, 2005 05:21: Message edited by: Pien' Kiusanhenki ] -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Agent
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written Sunday, October 30 2005 14:15
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Don't roll your eyes at me. :P I do have a family to take care of, and a business to run, and bills to pay, ect. I've taken it all in and instead of going point by point(since I'd have to re-read everything you wrote), I'm going to go by what I generally understood you to say. Please correct me if I've misunderstood or misquoted you. Point one: God The God of today is the same as the God of the Old Testament. He did not change just because He sent Jesus into the world. The God of love you know today is the same God who decided so long ago to drown all living creatures save the fish of the sea, Noah and family, and a pair of every animal he led to the ark. He is the same God who punished Isreal time and time again for their disobedience, often by immediate death. He is the same God who destroyed Sodam and Gamorah when they refused to repent and spared Ninevah when they sought forgivness when shown the error of their ways. God is not all love, he is also wrath and much of what Moses had to say included the phrase 'fear the Lord'. This man sat side by side with God and said we should fear him. And in Deuteronomy 4:10, it is God himself who wishes his people to fear him. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. A little fear is a healty thing, especially when it creates courage, and not something to be rejected. PS. I don't see God as a loser (neither does anyone in my church, or actually any christians I can think of), but rather as a holy, awesome, infallible, all-powerful, all-knowing, everpresent being who has full right to giveth and taketh away as he sees fit. To you this may seem like a loser view, but in my heart he is Abba Father, almighty king. Point two: The Word of God. I'm sure you can already guess that I believe that the Bible is completely God inspired, that is, God put the words into the minds of all the various authors who together wrote the book. I believe that none of it is lies though I know that many people of many ages have misintrepreted portions of it. (Myself not excluded) It frustrates me, how often you have referred to scripture or grabbed a phrase from scripture without including a reference, making it extremely difficult for anyone reading to look up the scripture for context or 'author's intent'. I believe the first time you did so was in reply to Desert Pl@h about us all being 'gods'. (Which, btw, was taken out of context. More on that later.) In general I understand your view of scripture as a good guide written by fallible men that no one really understands yet because we haven't reached that 'age' yet. If I believe any of the Bible to be a lie, then there's no reason for any of it to be true. If I cannot count on the diciples of Jesus to cling to the truth in everything, then I can't depend on them to retell the truth in anything. If Matthew and Luke both started their books with lies about Jesus's birth, then what's to stop them from lying about his life and death? He might as well be a fictional character. Point three: The Son of God quote:It matters because by your view we are all like Jesus, and we can all achieve what Jesus achieved. If we only work hard enough at it, we can all be perfect. By my view no one can be perfect. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."(Romans 3:23) But Jesus was sinless and blameless for his entire life.(Hebrews 4:15) The lamb without blemish who allowed himself to be sacrificed for us, that we may be redeemed only through him. We cannot gain eternal life without him, not just by doing as he did(because that would be of ourselves), but by accepting him as our personal saviour and giving full reign of our life to him. John 3:16 (The words of Jesus, I'm sure you've heard it before) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have eternal life." This phrase is repeated in verse 18 "God's one and only Son." The rest of us can also become sons and daughters of God but only through adoption, not through blood. We will still share in the inherritance but we will never be on an equal level as Jesus. You are right to say that Jesus never sought to deify himself, yet his disciples did. The people closest to him, who knew him personally, often refer to him as Lord, and when refered to as Lord during his life he didn't correct. Why should I not do the same as his first followers? The verses you quoted about being gods does not even extend to the common people since the Psalm is about the unjust kings and judges of the day. It was not uncommon practice in their culture for a king or judge to demand to be referred to as a god or son of God. 'I said 'You are "gods"', means that those who rule are appointed by God, thus they are his representatives - whether they acknowledge him or not. In the very next verse it is revealed how far they are from being 'gods'. They will die, fall from their throne, and be judged the same as other men by the one true God. (Psalm 82:7-8) I could write more but life calls. Another time then. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Sunday, October 30 2005 22:03
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Holy cow. I must have outdone myself. My reply was so long it wouldn't "take" in the reply box. I have decided not to post it here and to let the thread die or go where it will. I don't wish to be doing this with all my free time either, and it smacks of my own pride to put so much earnestness into my efforts. I know it's not necessary and not very useful to debate Who God is this way most of the time. There' s a part of me that obviously loves to do it, but there's a wiser part of me that until recently, had mostly learned to put all that striving behind me and just live the life instead of talk the life (nods to Salmon who probably wrote the wisest sentence in this whole thread.) So, I demure for the good of us all I think. Riibu, if you'd actually made some points, I would have enaged what you are putting together better. Gizmo, if you would like to see what I wrote in response to your last post, I will email it to you. -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Sunday, October 30 2005 22:19
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I'm quite sure that wasn't me. My family thinks the wisest statement I've ever made was "screw the blessing, let's eat!" *this message sponsored by husqvarna* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |