God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! )
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 17:41
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quote:Raise your hand if you care what Cardinals say *doesn't raise hand* :P . Syn, you didn't get the idea that I want to go out and do those things I said, did you? What I said applies to someone who hasn't been "saved" too. You've said that we eventually all end up in the state/realm of heaven, whether coming through torment or not. If I didn't believe in God before meeting with you, I'd still have no reason to change the way I live. I have no reason to change anything. -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 17:56
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quote:... Are you really that dense as to claim that you don't need natural sciences? How the hell are you even typing this? [ Sunday, November 06, 2005 17:56: Message edited by: Trrr's Mrtr ] -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 19:55
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We all end up dead, too. Given the choice of being tormented or not being tormented on the way to becoming dead, everyone will choose the latter. I imagine most people would think the same way about being tormented in the afterlife. —Alorael, who would in fact say that Synergy's view of divine punishment works in much the same way as deterrence by threat of temporal legal punishment by the state. You can only be in prison for so long, but prison sentences are still trusted to keep people from committing heinous crimes. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 19:56
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t Synergy - It is scary to think outside the box. There are some very basic, very fundamental things that my church/denomination teaches must be present for correct thinking. You have thrown out almost all of them. The Bible is the inspired word of God to be wholy trusted as complete truth. (Or as complete as translation to English allows) The Trinity, there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Everything else is a creation of God, but not God. The Sinful Nature, since the first sin of Adam and Eve, we are all born with the tendancy to sin and pull away from God. No one is without sin. The Virgin Birth, showing that Jesus truly did come from God and that he was born without the 'sinful nature' and ultimately completely without sin in his own life. Hell, there is punishment for complete rebellion. Those who are offered a personal relationship with Jesus but reject him will also be rejected by him on judgement day. All of these things are very important to me and to my 'religion'. The latter four all because of the first. Actually by my church's teaching, your views are like that of a cult. All you lack is the leader of an organized group who wishes you to fund his ministry. Your words are as sweet as honey, painting the most beautiful pictures of life and death and God. But words are also very dangerous. Using sweet words was the very first way that Satan tricked mankind. "Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?... You will not surely die... when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God..."(Genesis 3:1-4) I have every reason to fear you and your words. 'The Antichrist' is truly never named as such in Revelation (just another name we have attached to our supposed biggest foe), but the verses that do mention the antichrist tell us to beware of all false prophets. (Not that you consider yourself a prophet ;) ) If though, I put all on the wayside and ask myself what belief will really matter in the end, it's not any of the things I have listed. In the end, I know, it will be my belief in Jesus that will matter. But more then just belief, for even the demons believe and tremble, but my acceptance of Him as my personal Lord and Savior. So my last question for you is, do you consider Jesus as just a brother to be admired for being the first(and as far as I can tell only) one to achieve perfect love? Or is he your personal savior? Feel free to run around as much fluff as you like, but in the end I would like a clear cut answer: brother/savior/both. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 20:01
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The difference between 5 AP and 6 AP and even 7 AP is usually negligible. It's the difference between 4 and 5 that really makes a difference. —Alorael, who supposes that being hasted can make the small increments add up. So yes, it's worth going for lots of AP, but still not to the point where your character doesn't shred everything that moves without extra AP. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 20:15
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Wrong topic, Alorael? :P -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 20:41
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And you're wrong to boot. 6 AP is very significant to magi. And, believe this or not, 9 AP is available. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 20:54
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Perhaps we could keep this discussion to this topic where it belongs? (Although, TM, I'm not entirely sure how a mage would get Quick Strike in the first place, considering the prerequisites. :P ) -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 22:10
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A merge/split function would be very handy for moving posts between topics. :) -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 23:31
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In A2 I used Divine Warrior on my mage and managed to have 12 AP. Not sure how though, and it only lasted a couple of rounds before he was back to two spells, and then 1. It was probably because I used the character editor to gawd the party. Yeah. *this message sponsored by the holy trinity of hearno, seeno, and speakno* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 23:39
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The reason for that is that Divine Warrior gives the Divine Aid status effect, which doubles your AP. But as I said, this belongs in the other topic. *points in the direction of my previous post* -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 23:56
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I thought this topic was about God Stuff. Divine Warrior and Divine Aid both fall under that heading. *this message sponsored by pedant publishing* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Sunday, November 6 2005 23:56
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It's oddly appropriate seeing Divine Aid and Warrior in here—our beloved Exile/Avernum games carry over much Christian symbolism with priests who both Bless and call down Divine Fire. quote:Riibu, you are quoting Ecclesiastes. So you would say that this poetic writing (possibly or possibly not by Solomon) is a viewpoint offered by God, rather than stating man’s view of himself “under the sun” apart from any inkling of his spiritual nature or the existence of God. The voice in Ecclesiastes over and over says, “All is vanity!” So, is all of life vanity? Is it better as the author suggests, that we had never been born at all, than to be born and suffer? Look at the book and its “wisdom.” It greatly contradicts truths we know about the nature of God and man and our purpose in being. It’s downright bleak and depressing. It’s a great piece of prose making its point from an intended perspective, however. This is what I mean when I say we have to look at the inspiration of scriptures from a contextual point of view and from one of spiritual understanding. I have no problem believing that there is Divine Inspiration underlying any or all of the books we have in the Bible. If so, Ecclesiastes was divinely inspired to tell us a lie from the point of view of godless man, that all is vanity and men are no better than beasts who also live and go to their end in the grave. It makes a point, if we can be wise enough to rightly divide it, what voice speaks it to us, and for what purpose it is speaking. It is plainly not the voice of God speaking to us to instruct us. Yet that is exactly what the Divine Word of God theory of scripture would have us believe everything in the Bible must be. Ec 3:19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts; for all is vanity. quote:It’s amusing you to call me that, isn’t it, DP? ;) quote:No, you said as much. The “you” was generic. I’ll bet, however, there are a few things you’d be less likely to hesitate doing (or feel bad about doing). quote:Torment...”touchstoning”—the process of testing gold for its purity? Au contraire, my good man, no one gets in without passing the purity test for refined gold . Salvation (from the wages of sin) is freely given to all. Overcoming, entering the Kingdom, being granted a place of authority in God, is given to those who finish the race to receive the crown. quote:Then you simply would not have yet received a revelation of Who your Father is and why He is so wholly loveable and embraceable to the degree you’d give up anything for relationship with Him and to even die for Him. That’s love. We change how we live because we love someone. Ask any happily married couple. And we live by the inner law of love because we agree with its principles and its blessings, not only to ourselves, but to many others about us. When we gain a sense of accountability, not for only our own precious personal fate and how much we may suffer, but on behalf of all suffering humanity about us, we are convicted by the ways of love which bring life, healing and reconnection, rather than the ways of self-serving which steal the life of others for our own interests. Happily, the burden is not placed on us to strive to keep a law of love through our own inconsistent and frustrating efforts. The real grace of God is that He enlivens His Spirit within us to give us a new heart and a new nature that naturally does the things of love, and is able to achieve them: Phil 2:13 For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire. Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right spirit within me. Eze 36:26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 2Co 3:3 and you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. This to me is beautifully related to the promise: Phil 2:5 For, let this mind be in you that is also in Christ Jesus It is a letting, a permitting, a surrendering to process, rather than something we strive to enforce or control within ourselves. The old Law/Covenant was about wrestling with a carnal nature to keep a set of rules all were guilty under. The new Law/Covenant of Christ is that He will enter into our hearts, make them new, write new laws upon them, and we will take a new mind and heart and live out of them naturally. This process is not automatic, as DP might seem to think I mean. We have to first believe it works this way and be an accomplice to the process through much learning and working of Christ in us to teach us to live out of the new nature and mind and cease turning to the old carnal ways of thinking and doing. In Romans 7, Paul laments the battle between the two minds, the two natures within him as he underwent this spiritual changing. Rom 7:22 -25 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self, but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! What is Paul so thankful about after making that statement? (Here also is a clue about what death is all about for the spiritually-minded...it has little to do with being physically alive or dead). Paul goes on in Romans 8 to rejoice that there is ”now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”. We are no longer condemned for our flesh life and its lingering behaviors, but we are exhorted to seek after the new life and nature which puts the old nature to death in time. To chase the dark out of a room, you neither curse the darkness nor strive to make it leave. You simply...turn on the light. The means are a positive which overcomes the negative. The means are the Law of life which Christ enacts in us which overcomes the law of sin and death. Christianity with its sin consciousness has become negatively focused, darkness focused. It gives too little credit and professes too little faith in the redemptive, victorious workings of Christ to overcome sin, darkness, and death in any of us, let alone ultimately all of us. A seed grows into a plant or tree because of the law of life within it. By same virture, the law of Life which Christ plants in our spirits is promised to grow into what its spiritual genetics predetermine. We have to remain in that which nurtures that life, so it continues to grow. The milk which churches typically offer the believer, are not going to promote growth past a certain state of infantile dependency, which is in their self-interest, though I doubt they’d consciously think of it that way. ... Gizmo, thanks for taking some more time to respond. I am disappointed that you continue to not engage the actual nuts and bolts of the many points upon which we see differently—whether it is the absence of hell in the OT and what that implies, or that Jesus preached the gospel to the wicked from Noah’s day in the grave, or many other points I have made with scriptural support. I wish you would show me how the perspectives I derive from our same scriptures are wrong by using the same passages (and others) and explaining them in a more sensible light, and not merely naysay what I have said by saying that I am wrong. I believe we should know moreso WHY we believe what we believe than merely what it is we believe. quote:This is true, but it is also ultimately wonderfully and joyfully liberating. You cannot rise up on wings like eagles inside a box. quote:Whose “correct” thinking is that? In whom have you placed your trust to know “correctness”? The traditions of your church and the men who have formed it over centuries, carrying medieval and ancient world pagan ideas and interpretations with them? And if the Holy Spirit speaks above and beyond the traditions of your men, what then? What if someone anointed by the Father comes along and accuses such men of being whited sepulchres, full of dead mens’ bones? Because I suggest that Jesus lives via Holy Spirit in many in this day, and many are speaking against the traditions of religious men who have long rendered the gospel of “none effect”. If you automatically dispel any who come and say, “repent” (literally means “take a new mind”), “for we have been seeing a truer vision of our God”, then you risk resisting a working of the Holy Spirit in this day and the benefits offered. Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 1Jo 2:27 but the anointing which you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that any one should teach you; as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie, just as it has taught you, abide in him. The Holy Spirit trumps the teachings of men. This includes anything I write and anything any system of belief or denomination teaches. If we do not know how to divide truth and error by the working of the Spirit in us, as the new Mind and Head in us, then we are prey to any possible delusion. My whole point for “arguing” a view of God not embraced by the majority today is so that any who are hungry for something more and who are open to God’s revelation and changing of even their cherished beliefs, can ask the Holy Spirit to confirm and reveal the truth (or error) of any such things that intrigue—or threaten. Logic and rationale and persuasion may create enough doubt or interest or hope to inspire someone to take it before God within as Spirit for examination. quote:I’m well aware that this is your stance. What you have repeatedly declined to offer me is upon what you base this blind belief and requirement. It’s not in the Bible that we were to be given a Bible and it was to be what you claim it is. Again I challenge you, what do you base your absolute faith in 66 disparate, gathered writings and their translations upon? quote:So “sin” is in flesh and blood and not the heart and attitude? Why did Jesus say to feel anger toward your brother in your heart is that same sin as to murder him? What about the blood Jesus’ foetus received from the placenta of Mary, who was born into sin? Wouldn’t that have contaminated Jesus with sin? Please answer these basic questions. I want to hear your explanations besides, “it’s the faith of my denomination—it must be correct”. Do you realize how many times Jesus referred to Himself as the “Son of man”? Dozens. How many times does He call Himself the Son of God? Never directly. (Oh, the benefits of Bible software, for I learned something new today). Others, including devils, have called Him that, but He never assigned it to Himself. I’m not making any particular implication by that fact other than Jesus identified Himself with humanity, while others sought to focus on their perceived deification of Him. quote:Again I ask, what of those in China or the isles of the Pacific, or the Americans north and south in all those years B.C., while Israel and no other had the Law and its rituals? Did they all go to hell for never having being offered the ways of Israel under the law, never mind a future gospel and a “choice for Jesus”? This isn’t being offered for hypothetical musing. I want to hear your explanation. If you are going to be an administrator of the gospel of God to others in this world, you’d better be prepared to be able to answer such questions, because people care about these things and what they say about the God they are being asked to accept and trust. What is the purpose of our Father’s “punishment”? Would it interest you to know that there are six uses of the word “punishment” in the NT, but many scores of uses of the word “judgment” of God? Judgment comes from the Greek word “krisis” which means a separating point, a deciding point, a turning point. A judgment can be favorable or unfavorable. What are the purposes of God’s judgments? Isa 26:9 My soul yearns for thee in the night, my spirit within me earnestly seeks thee. For when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. This does not mean that the judgments of God are not terrible to endure. But righteousness is learned as a result. The popular view of God today is that He capriciously and angrily punishes His children to no end and to no correction. Sad, wretched, impotent God such have, a God plagued with the cold-hearted behavior of only the worst earthly fathers who beat and torture their own children and lock them in cages to rot. No one on earth calls such behavior “love” or “justice.” In fact, we put such people in prison. But we assign such behavior to our Father of “love and justice” and somehow live with Him and with ourselves. Such a God is not even Biblical, as it happens to be, and as I have already been making arguments with many scriptures to show, and have some more yet to demonstrate. quote:I don’t suppose you find it amusing that I jokingly refer to organized Christianity today as the “cult of Book Worship”? ...I didn’t think so. Oh well. I can’t recall Christians being recently accused of having a sense of humor about themselves. I think we all need to take a good regular look and laugh at ourselves. quote:Ironic you should mention this. Who is it who berates its population with obligations to an Old Testament law which is done away with (the tithe)? Who passes a plate in its services so all may see who gives and who does not give openly? Who finds infinite ways to manipulate with greed and fear to separate its patrons from their money on behalf of the “Kingdom of Church”? What beautifully resonates with those many I have known who teach the salvation of all and a God of purpose and victory, is that they do NOT require payment for their materials or services. They freely give out to any who request and survive on any volunteered donations. So many I have known have operated on this Godly principle of “freely have you received, freely give.” The beauty of the Spirit operating in such ministry is in harmony with its teaching. It speaks loudly for itself without uttering a word. quote:Too bad God couldn’t actually be that sweet, huh? I guess human beings can think up much better and more beautiful universes than Almighty, All-loving, All-knowing, All-purposeful God. quote:1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and he who fears is not perfected in love. It sounds to me like such fear can only come from a place of insecurity. I fear the words of no one, because I know I have the Holy Spirit to take all things before to rightly divide and not lead me astray. It may take time, but He is faithful. I am not upset that these words are seen as dangerous though. You are right. They are dangerous to the organized church systems which have kept vast populations of believers in fear and craven devotion and monetary supplication for so long. Something is coming forth in this earth to bring judgment to the house of God. 1Pe 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? God judges His own before He judges the world. He comes as Refiner’s Fire to those who proclaim His Name in the earth. What will be burned? What will remain? Who is Mystery Babylon and what is her fate? Mark 9:49-50 For every one will be salted with fire. Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its saltness, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another." Methinks that Christianity—which began with tongues of Holy Spirit fire salting those in an upper room in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, and which caught on like wildfire, even to the point where believers were willing to be Nero’s human torches for their faith—methinks this Christianity has lost its saltiness and has ceased to be palatable to the masses. I see a world increasingly spitting the vile mixture out of its mouth, if anything. You might be amazed to see that early church doctrinal belief dominantly did not include belief in eternal punishment, by the way. That may have had a little something to do with the gospel being called “good news” back then. quote:I could not have said this better myself. quote:And what if organized Christianity has been functioning as the false prophet—giving false view of God to the earth for many long centuries, finally to be brought to judgment? Any wise person has to consider the “what ifs”...the possibilities. I assure you it is well within the range of possibility...and likelihood. Where do you think the “angel of light” wants to masquerade? On the periphery with the weirdos and outcasts of religious belief? Or right in the heart of Christendom in the most organized and long-established systems of faith and power in the earth? Babylon the Great is drunk with the wine of her fornications with all the kings of the earth. She has wielded considerable power and influence and reputation among the nations. For the fun of it, I am going to separately look at antichrist later though. It’s a brief, but illuminating little study. quote:You place your trust well in Him Who tests all our hearts and works with fire: How about your Father, to whom Jesus prayed? You believe in Jesus, the Nice Guy, Who died for you (once for all), but do you believe in your Father, who you believe will charbroil you forever if you neglect to receive this gift Jesus offers? It is little wonder to me Christians are so in love with Jesus, but have little to do with God as Father, because the Father they have is downright frightful and not someone anyone in their right mind would want to trust or embrace. quote:This is another one of those extra-Biblical terms which grates on my ears. It has no special meaning, except that it detracts from the universal aspect of salvation and brings it to a me me me centered focus. MY PERSONAL savior, (but maybe not yours). But I understand your sentiment, even if I dislike the semantics. I’m not worried about you or your faith, Gizmo. I trust in the working of the Holy Spirit to bring us all into correction and revelation of truth, and of Who He is, in due time, this side of heaven, hell, or the grave, or another. quote:He is both Brother and Savior, and I believe that is exactly what He is in the business of doing, working on the collection in full for the price He paid for all the world—once for all. The Father handed Him the keys to death and hell, and gave Him full authority. I trust Him to carry out His intentions with that full authority. Re 1:18 I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. So, we can’t absolve loving Jesus from eternal tortures of billions either, ‘cuz He’s the one with the keys (to open the locks/form solutions to set the captives free from death and hell). ... The bottom line of what you are saying to me, Gizmo, is that if the threat of eternal punishment is removed, that there is then nothing left to compel anyone toward God or to cause souls to serve Him out of love and devotion. Is God not loveworthy enough to merit such freely-given devotion and affection? How is it that fear, which is cast out by perfect love, is the only effective motivator to scare us into perfect love of our Father? Does this really make sense to you? In real life, we don’t put up with this nonsense. We rightfully call a tyrant anyone who bullies and demands servitude and “love” through threat of torture. But in religion, we call this love and justice of God. Thank God that the love and justice of that devil-god is not found in the Kingdom of God which is due to swallow up all the earth. Such an earth would be a nightmare world of horrors. The torture chambers of Saddam Hussein, Augusto Pinochet, Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler, The Inquisitors (read Malleus Maleficarum for a lovely view of what traditions of men lead them to do in the name of God), Emperor Nero, and countless other tyrants of the past would pale in comparison to the “loving judgements” wielded by the Father God of Christendom. [ Monday, November 07, 2005 02:53: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Monday, November 7 2005 02:10
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quote:I really cannot stop laughing, I am very sorry. quote:'Correct thinking' is a somewhat ominous phrase: I'm hoping that it implies that without certain inherent axioms, it is impossible to reach a valid theological conclusion, right? That's scary enough, but it really has brainwashy overtones. quote:Which Bible? There are dozens of them, all with some passages, paragraphs, books, etc. - entire theological stepping stones, suggesting the trinity, the Apostolic succession, the virgin birth, whatever - added or removed. It's impossible for them all to be the complete truth, even taking into account differences in translation. This variation occurs even within the original Greek and (such as it is) the original Hebrew, with some canons varying drastically and drastic contradictions internally and externally abound no matter what language you're using. How can you justify all of that with a belief in the Bible as literal truth? quote:The Bible, and especially different canons thereof, contradicts itself wildly on the issue of whether God is one or God is three. How can you, accepting the Bible as the whole and literal truth, believe one way or the other with absolute certainty? quote:What is sin? What does it mean? I understand that eating pork, being menstruated on, and pissing against the wall are all things you are not supposed to do, but why? Does God enforce this covenant because it is righteous or is the covenant righteous because it is enforced by God? If so, is it righteous to kill a man because God so instructs you? If not, is God capable of error? quote:The virgin birth is a translational fallacy. Under no reasonable circumstances does the word translated to virgin mean virgin; it is an exact translation for 'maiden' (unmarried), where an exact translation for 'virgin' exists and is used many times, but not in the passage describing Mary at the moment of divine conception. Jesus being a bastard is less notable than Jesus being the child of a virgin; why would the pre-translation text see fit to mention the former and not the latter if the latter is true? How can you simultaneously believe in the whole truth of the Bible and the virgin birth of the Christ when the Bible does not state Mary to be a virgin? quote:If I am created by God, my faculties are created by God: and my God-given faculties tell me the personal relationship you speak of is abusive and debasing and a benevolent deity would want me to take no part in it. Further, those God-given faculties tell me any immediate moment of revelation to the contrary is to be avoided, much like any immediate revelation stating I can fly or this doomsday cult is above-board. Why would a just God give me such faculties, then, if He knows that they are to condemn me to eternal punishment? quote:I like how you put your 'religion' in quotes so I didn't have to. Also, the first clearly contradicts the fourth and leaves the rest muddy. quote:Because they disagree? If there is a difference, please explain: I am afraid I cannot suffer his verbosity as well as you apparently can. quote:The best meterstick of when an organization is a cult is its including a clear injunction against trusting anything outsiders say. That is what allows it to maintain belief in the charismatic leadership's dogma, no matter how absurd. Any other factors are merely trappings without a way to keep believers trapped. quote:If your beliefs cannot hold up against his sweet-as-honey words on their own, what makes them valid? Whatever your views of your Almighty, certainly you do not consider yourself infallible; is it not a real possibility your beliefs, as much as any beliefs you had before your conversion and as much as any beliefs he has, are in error? quote:What does that mean? I have heard it said a lot, and I used to believe in something like it, but does it really mean anything? quote:What if your Jesus never lived? What if the genuine article is ashes in Palestine, what if the genuine article is uninterested in lording over or saving anyone, what if the genuine article is the first among servants of Mohammed? Where is your soul if you are wrong? More importantly, where is your life if you are wrong? I have always suspected it would be a better use of my limited years to worry about the sufferings of others while I am alive rather than my own sufferings while I am dead. I want to do good in the world, and I don't want to draw borders on my good or limit its time or bring its motives into question by being bogged down by religion, and if your God Almighty wants to beat the hell out of me forever for that, well - I've always been comfortable with martyrdom. You want me to answer your question? Jesus doesn't matter the most to me. He's not my monomania. Maybe he's yours and Synergy's, but not mine. Unless the entire testament of his life was a complete fiction, he was an instrument of goodwill on the Earth, and for that I owe him a tremendous debt of gratitude and for him and all of the other great and good men and women now gone I live a better life. But I'm not convinced anyone couldn't do better. Jesus matters to me as a hero, as a deliverer from darkness, and as a fighter of the good fight. But a savior? Not on your life. There's still work to be done, and if he were here today he'd tell you the same. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 1851
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written Monday, November 7 2005 02:55
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quote:Ecclesiastes describes two different sorts of life. Do try to check them all out, :\ In this book Solomon sought to congregate God’s people away from the vain and fruitless works of this world to the works worthy of the God to whom they as a nation were dedicated. A vivid description of works that are vain and those that are worth while. God is still present, no matter what. Life devoted to vain pursuits is empty: (1:1-11), (1:12-18), (2:1-11, 26), (2:12-16), (2:17-23), (3:1-9), (3:18-22), (4:1-3), (4:4-8), (4:13-16), (5:9-17), (6:1-12), (9:2, 3), (9:13-18), (10:1-19), (11:10), (12:8) Things that are worthwhile and give meaning to one's life: (2:24, 25; 5:18-20), (3:10-13), (3:14-17; 5:8), (4:9-12), (5:1-7), (7:1-15), (7:16-29), (8:1-17; 10:20), (9:1, 4-12), (11:1-8), (11:9; 12:1-7), (12:9-12), (12:13, 14) -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, November 7 2005 03:27
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quote:I don’t expect you to chew through my many words to find out, but I will state that my love and focus is for our Father, Who I know as the Source of our life, our purpose, and the existence of love in this universe. I trust enough in His nature to feel it is not only worthwhile, but highly desirable to live out of the principles of love and to see and treat my fellow brothers and sisters in the world through eyes of love, which Jesus demonstrated well. I stated somewhere that I see Jesus no more or less “divine” than any other child of God, but He demonstrated something He entered into first and was given the authority to continue dispensing that calling and life to the rest of us, who in turn are called to dispense it to the world after His fashion and in the same Spirit He did it. The means of the salvation of God are through human engagement and intercession here and now. So, I see your motivations and values being highly in line with what Jesus was all about, as you state. Jesus never stated He was God or another God, or the second expression of three of God. He simply said over and over that he was the son of man. He’s one of US, and that is precisely why we have hope by his example. quote:Well, that’s another perspective you have in common with Jesus: John 14: 12 In most solemn truth I tell you that he who trusts in me--the things which I do he shall do also; and greater things than these he shall do, because I am going to the Father. If that wasn’t an exhortation and invitation to step up to the plate... quote:I think you’re really onto it. Because Christendom is so focused on eternal reward/eternal punishment and how perpetually sinfully unworthy we all are, they really have been left with little to do with this life and world other than to acquire as many blessings for themselves while here (to make this rather pointless life more tolerable till its over) and to make intermittent stabs at scaring or cajoling others to adopt their faith so they too can avoid an unthinkable fate. But Jesus talked incessantly about establishing a kingdom with privileges and rewards, with the purpose of blessing the earth through a rulership of the principles of love right here on earth. It’s all centered here on earth, and not in some murky, lazy hereafter. What a victory for an “adversary”, to get people so caught up on afterlife that they don’t believe in the critically vital work we are called to do here and now. [ Monday, November 07, 2005 03:53: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, November 7 2005 03:38
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Oops, sorry for the double-post...not intentional. quote:This may be, but both are offered from a plainly limited perspective of spiritual understanding. Or is the following the reason God is saying He put us on earth and gave us life? Eccl 2:24 There is nothing better for a man than that he should eat and drink, and find enjoyment in his toil. This also, I saw, is from the hand of God; This is a great perspective to have, and I wish more Christians had such a pastorially joyful approach to life and pleasure, but it still falls short of the higher reason we are here revealed in our calling on behalf of love outward to others, and not merely to indulge our own pleasures to satisfaction. Additionally, when you quoted before that the grave is our end and there is no more conscioussness or existence afterwards, which view of life do you assign that to...the vain view or the worthwhile view? Why? “Turn that frown upside down!” :\ now equals :/ ? [ Monday, November 07, 2005 03:55: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
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written Monday, November 7 2005 08:30
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It's so hard to communicate properly without tone of voice... :( quote:I guess in a way, I'm doing it on purpose. Not that I'm trying to ignore you, but because my argument is the same old argument that Christians have been arguing for ages on end. Plus getting wholly into even one point would take me an entire afternoon and the real point of my last post was in part to say you have overturned everything. There is too much to think about, too much to look up, too much to respond to, so I take the easy way out, skirt all your questions and just ask you a new one. Anything I'd have to say to defend my positions has been heard already by you and most on this board many times over, but what you have to say is new, fresh, and much more interesting then hashing out my stuff again. So forgive me for not answering all your questions. If you're really interested there's a long thread over at desperance where I have already gone through much of what you're asking to know. (I be Mynt there, and beware the language of others) What I was trying to say with my last post is that even though we disagree on almost everything, none of those things really matter one way or the other. If I find myself in the afterlife and you were right in everything, it doesn't affect my salvation, if I was right in everything, it doesn't affect your salvation. The only thing that matters is surrender to God and Jesus, which was the reason for my last question. (Thank you for answering it so breifly, though you could have skipped the first half of my post. :P ) That said, I'll try to answer some of the direct questons in your post... quote:Truly it is my church's deffinition of 'correct'. Though we put our trust in God, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit to convey to us what is correct. With our trust in the Spirit, I would think that someone else would have gotten such a revelation as yours if it be correct. Why would the Spirit reveal the truth only to you while allowing countless numbers of followers just as faithful to believe in lies? And what of the countless sermons, Spirit inspired, preached by godly men (not to be mistaken for 'religous' men) that uphold what you propose to tear down? Are they all wrong? Would the Spirit lead them all to be liars? Would the Spirit encourage them to lead all their flocks astray? You keep saying that Christianity today has it completely wrong, yet it is faith in God, the Bible, and the workings of the Holy Spirit which have brought us to this point. We do not just follow the traditions because they are there, (though some Christians do)instead we look at the traditions, compare them to the scriptures, and pray that the Spirit will guide us in correct thinking. If we (we=my denomination) are wrong, then it is the Holy Spirit who has brought us here and he must have a reason for us to be where we are in our thinking. A scripture just poped into my head... "For I have become all things, to all people, that I might win some for Christ." Perhaps the reason there are so many denominations and so many different intrepretations of the Bible, is because God is trying to reach all people through all means. quote:My absolute faith is in God who does not lie. These 66 books are His representation. I make no claim that they are complete or that they are translated entirely accurately, but I do trust that God would make sure that everything we need to know would stay entact. I have no proof, but I do have the Spirit who has never led me to doubt that the Bible is anything less then I already believe. quote:Of course not. No puttie words in my mouth. You already know I agree with you that it is motive that matters. There is no sin in perfect love, remember? quote:Another question you know the answer to. (and know that my answer is the same as yours) So why ask it? The implications are less then positive. quote:It is not about the mixing of blood, it is the origination of Jesus. He was sent by God, not created by man. It was a miracle birth, not an illegitament one. In the OT, those of illetigament birth and their decendents were not allowed into the 'assembly of the Lord'. Not that it was their fault, but because God is holy and must be respected as so. Nothing and noone that was tainted in any way could enter the presence of the Lord. Jesus would not have been the Lamb without blemishes he needed to be if he were born in the way you suggest. It's not a point worth the time it takes to discuss though so don't feel the need to address it. quote:- This is answered very thuroughly in the thread at desp. but I will summerize. Jesus is the judge, he will decide the fate of all men. Those who have never heard the gospel will be judged just as those who have and everyone's heart motive will be most important. Anyone who hears the message and rejects it will also be rejected, they have condemned themselves. I am curious. How do you intrepret Luke 16:19-31? I would also like to know what Riibu thinks of this passage. Another parable of Jesus, but one about hell. One that describes a 'place of torment' where the rich man goes after he dies being quite conscious of his agony. If it is not to be taken literally as a description of a real place, then what does it mean? Back to life I go... [ Monday, November 07, 2005 11:11: Message edited by: Jewels ] -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Monday, November 7 2005 10:45
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quote:You’re right about that. I worry frequently how my words “sound”, moreso than simply the content I choose. I can see the sincere heart in you through your words. quote:You know, we do have a God Who appears to have no trouble doing that at the transition of ages, of “dispensations.” New wine bursts old wineskins and all. Why do you assume there are no more such overturnings yet to come in what God wishes to unfold next upon the earth? I did look at the thread of yours over at Desperance. You know, TM, Djur, and others made some very good logical criticisms of the popular heaven and hell doctrines, the same ones many people world round have trouble accepting with the current breed of Christian doctrine they are fed. They are criticisms to which conventional Christianity seems entirely unable to offer any reasonable answers. I didn’t see you offer any, as far as I read. But you are right, there is probably little you could write here or there which I would find new or convincing in way of challenging the view of God as sovereign and outworking the ultimate redemption of all the world. I essentially came through the brand of Christianity you declare (among others). It’s familiar to me and I vomited it up eventually. It simply has no good answers for many of the conundrums and contradictions it creates. God gave me a good mind, and a questioning mind (my Dad used to call me “question box”) that is not content to settle on heinous nonsense just because some “authorities” say it is so. God’s truths are simple, sublime, and easily understood by children. They really do make sense. And they really are good news to all. Because others are reading at least some of all this dialog, it would be helpful to see your doctrinal arguments and defenses (representing evangelical Protestant Christianity) against simple points being made about Bible fallibility, Greek or Hebrew translations of words, or verses about dead from the days of Noah being preached to (rather than being in some eternal torture for dying for their sins way back then). Or even some personal commentary on the simple logic of what love and justice are and demand. Why is it utterly abhorrent and illegal to us for earthly fathers to torture their kids for their misdeeds, but ok when our heavenly Father does it? I’m not talking about discipline or spanking. I’m talking roasting someone alive forever, if that were possible in reality. Which brings me to another ridiculously obvious question. If the dead are tortured by literal fire, how is a spirit/soul body tortured by physical flames? The body is left behind in death. Are ghosts prone to being burned with flames? It’s fine if you don’t feel you have a good or simple answer to the many queries like this I am inclined to put out, but if you feel you do have one, be a dear and please share it? I am really curious what your thought process is like outside rote recitation of doctrinal dictates. What do you think about all these things? Is there a part of you that revulses against the eternal torture doctrine your faith requires you to accept? It is okay if your hubby at some point decides your kids are hopeless reprobates, locks them in the cellar, and has someone burn and torture them for the rest of their lives? Why is it ok when God, perfect in love, does it? How does the punishment fit the crime? (a point one brought up at desperance). quote:That’s fine for you and me. It makes a huge difference for billions of others now living, and scores of billions more who lived and died before them. Seeing and sharing God rightly is of monumental importance, if our task is to bring the rulership of God’s love and truth into fullness in this earth. There are very simple reasons why 2000 years of our current mixture of church doctrines have not accomplished this, even while wielding such great political and moral control of all of Europe for long centuries. It could go on for millions more and never get any further along to establishing the kingdom. quote:I mentioned at least twice in this thread that these are not my own ideas, nor is any of them new. There is nothing new under the sun. In fact, on the issue of the afterlife, eternal torment was not always the prevailing belief in the early days of the pre-Romanized churches. You’d be surprised who throughout history has believed in universal salvation. Some heretic groups who were persecuted in the distant past held some of these very beliefs. Every age has had some who have embraced these “heresies” about the truth of God. In the early 20th century, with the “latter rain” movement, a number of people began to receive this word anew, to believe, write and teach these kinds of revived views of God and His full extent of salvation. It really began to take off in 1906, again in 1948, and especially since the 1970’s. In the 1990’s, these teachings really began to be much more openly embraced even into formerly obstinate denominational churches. What I mean is that even doctrinally-conflicting churches have happily let or invited people teaching these “heresies” in to share them and not chased them out with sticks. At the very least. The word is getting around. The interest has piqued greatly even in my lifetime. Here are a few links to vast resources of many who online have offered such teachings and revelations: http://www.sigler.org/kingdom/page1.html (90 sources alone, Gary Sigler used to live near me.) http://www.sigler.org/eby/ (Preston Eby, from El Paso, Tx, who has been one of the most instrumental sources of my learning and inspiration over many years) http://promiseed.com/ (Stacy Wood and his wife Pamla, whom I have also met and heard teach repeatedly and dearly love) http://www.godfire.net/ (Elwin Roach, from NM) http://tentmaker.org/ (Gary Amirault, a good logician, historian, and researcher) At the end of this post is something I gleaned from the last site, lest you imagine I am alone in my delusions of the grandeur of God. If you want to read even better (and sometimes even more concise) arguments than mine, go poke around with an open and seeking heart. Ask God to show you what is His truth, being willing to lay aside anything which may stand in the way, including former beliefs accepted by many. God likes and rewards that kind of attitude. I have met quite a few of these teachers and all operate in the same kind of spirit of freely giving, and deeply loving others. They are their own best testimony as far as I am concerned. I never saw an organized Church which operated in the same spirit. I have significant stores of writings from numerous teachers on these topics. The fact that it is not an organized church with a creed and a building to point to does not mean there are not many who have had this revelation. It happens for most of us like it does for any spiritual revelation: someone speaks or writes something which we hear or read and it triggers something powerful and compelling in us which makes us hungry and excited. We pray, we seek more, we open our hearts, and God is faithful to open up “new” truths to us, so peaceable and potent, there can be no going back. Why does God permit untold millions over the last 2000 years to believe in lies? For the same reason God has permitted the curse of sin and apostasy in general for far longer. There is a vital, patient lesson for all the world to witness and learn from it all over time. It will be instrumental for us all to ultimately learn to reject self-centeredness, living out of the carnal mind, judging for ourselves what is “good” and what is “evil”—the original sin. The original sin was man became religious-minded essentially, rather than spiritual. He became his own judge with his own unenelightened mind, cut of from the Mind of God. And all kinds of wickedness and suffering and apostasy has resulted ever since. Even Babylon, the harlot, the apostate church of mixture and carnality, was shown in the vision to be a “golden cup” in the Lord’s hand, echoed in OT prophecy as well as the NT: Jer 51:7 Babylon was a golden cup in the LORD's hand, making all the earth drunken; the nations drank of her wine, therefore the nations went mad. (like, I don’t know, convincing them there were witches everywhere to torture and burn)? Re 17:4-5 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication; and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth's abominations." So, the point is, I am not against the churches or history or what has gone before. They have been, despite themselves, their mixtures, their fornications, a golden cup in God’s hand, accomplishing His purposes for this age. I am FOR God and truth and love, not against churches which yet deny and do not yet perceive Him wholly as He is. I argue on behalf of the One I love, so that He may be rightly considered and known. His name has been badly besmirched by many for a long time now. His patience is long. The Spirit leads to the extent that we are willing to follow. The degree to which those who went before stumbled into greater truth reflects merely that, not the sincerity of their hearts, the light they did embrace, the love they had, or the good they did. But there is always more in God, more further up the mountain. It goes as far as we are willing to follow, and the trees get sparser the higher you go, the air rarer...and the view more incredible. I question no one’s heart or sincerity, surely not yours. But it is not an easy thing to learn to surrender our mind to the mind of the Spirit. I have far to go. I consider it a great work of grace on His part that I see any of these joyful, liberating truths, when I could just as easily be camped back in a Church embracing those despairing doctrines of the ultimate victory of satan. There is an opposing and highly seductive force which goes to great means to work against the mind of Spirit, deceiving even the very elect. Please don’t put words in my mouth. Christianity has some very important things wrong in its thinking. I do not say it is “completely wrong” or anything like it. It is mixture—this I have said repeatedly. But we and the world really judge a person or group by its attitude, and care little about its doctrine in itself. That is where the slip of Christianity especially shows: the hearts reflect the doctrine of a Father Who is willing to burn alive billions of His own babies. We become like the God we see...Christians too became willing to burn alive others in the name of God. Let’s not be confused: The Holy Spirit never led anyone into error. Mixing truth the Spirit gives with our own carnal reasoning and old thinking is where we get into all this trouble. It is so pervasive, I think most of us have no real clue what the difference actually is, when it comes down to it. There is more of it in me than I am aware—of that I am aware. quote:Paul spoke of being all things to all people...speaking to them as one of them in their own “language”, if you will. There is a great truth and lesson how God operates in this, yes, I think so too. But I don’t think that explains doctrinal conflicts in the churches or careless or politically-motivated Bible translations. Those come out of mixtures of fleshly thinking, not spiritual enlightenment through the Holy Spirit, except to the degree that “new” revelation to some particular persons led some out from one church to form another. But each new daughter church still carries over numerous other errors from the mother church of centuries past. These also need the corrective light of more revelation and restoration. ... [The following excerpted from Gary Amirault’s Tentmaker site] Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Christian Universalism: The belief that everything in heaven and on earth will ulitmately be reconciled back to the Creator through the work of Jesus Christ, his Son. In plain language, no one is going to be endlessly tortured as has been commonly taught. Famous people throughout the centuries who have declared publicly or strongly hinted that they believe all mankind will ultimately be saved. Remember, during most of Church history, openly declaring this belief often cost one their lives. The list includes early Church Fathers and leaders, theologians, scholars, historians, royalty, writers, poets, statesmen, humanitarians, scientists, and other streams of life. While some may not be well known to Americans living in the twentieth century, they are well known in the countries and times in which they lived. These men and women left written evidence behind declaring their views. Behind them stand millions who, while not having left behind a written record of their beliefs on earth, nevertheless, will one day brightly manifest to all creation as a Great Cloud of Witnesses. This list was compiled from several sources among which are: "A Cloud of Witnesses" by J.W. Hanson, first published in 1885 and reprinted by Concordant Publishing Concern; "Mercy and Judgment" by Canon F.W. Farrar, published in 1881; "Christ Triumphant" by Thomas Allin, first published in 1890, reprinted by Concordant Publishing Concern; and "Universal Reconciliation and the Evangelical Covenant Church." Dean Hough, Editor of Unsearchable Riches also contributed greatly to the list. [Note, I, Synergy GREATLY cut this list of many hundreds of names for “brevity’s sake”--ha ha, I know.] * All the Hebrew Prophets who prophesied of the coming of the Messiah * Jesus Christ (John 12:32) * Paul, the Apostle (never used the word "Hell" once) (1 Tim. 4:9-11) * John the Apostle (1 John 4:42) * Pantaenus, first head of catechetical school at Alexandria * Clement of Alexandria, second head of catechetical school at Alexandria * Origen, greatest scholar of the early church * Athenasius, Archbishop of Alexandria * Didymus * Ambrose, Bishop * Ephraim * Chrysostum * Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop * Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop and President of the second Church council * Titus, Bishop of Bostra * Asterius, Bishop of Amasea * Thomas Hobbes * Sir Isaac Newton * William King, Archbishop of Dublin * Thomas Campbell * Horace Smith * Washington Irving * Lord Byron * Lady Byron * Dr. F Hase, professor of theology * Nathaniel Hawthorne * Hans Christian Andersen * John Stuart Mill * Oliver Wendell Holmes * Alfred Tennyson * Horace Greeley * Charles Dickens * Lewis Carroll * James Russel Lowell * Dr. R. A. Lipsins, Prof. of Theology * Walt Whitman * Stopford A. Brooke, chaplain to the Queen * Rev. John Orr, Prof. Biblical Criticism * J. Fenimore Cooper * Victor Hugo * Clara Barton * Christopher Sauer, Bible Publisher * Dr. Benjamin Rush * Abraham Lincoln * Benjamin Franklin, encouraged the first Universalist Church in Philadelphia * George Washington, defended a Universalist chaplain in his army when attacked by "Orthodox" ministers * Rev. Charles A. Pridgeon, President Pittsburgh Bible Institute -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Monday, November 7 2005 12:16
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quote:Why would the Spirit reveal the truth only to you while allowing countless numbers of followers just as faithful to believe in lies? -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. desperance.net - Don't follow this link Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Monday, November 7 2005 12:39
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quote:Yay. I'm stepping out of the conversation for a moment. 8 page research paper and a timeline due in like 2 days. And TM? Learn to take a joke, then go love a woman, genius. -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, November 7 2005 13:51
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quote:Show me where God said so. Perhaps God was so good as to make that point clear for us in the last book written, the Revelation? quote:Isn’t it a huge assumption on your part that God decided to tell all humanity all we ever need to know about Him in Mesopotamia and Asia Minor circa 2000 B.C.-95 A.D.? What about Paul’s approach of being all things to all people? What of our time and our cultures and our languages today? How is God being, or in whom is God being all things to all people today? Or do all peoples of all times and places have to become infinitely acquainted with esoteric and intricate Semitic symbology, culture, and history to have any hope of understanding and embracing the truths of our universal Father? Isn’t that a noxious burden at best? There are lifetimes of knowledge and stories extricable from that collection of writings. Who has time for all that? Heck, who has time to read as much as I am able to write so quickly? quote:Why then, does Jesus then call himself continually, the “son of man”? Why couldn’t Jesus have been sent by God AND made by the flesh and blood of man? What is it about flesh which disqualifies any one from spiritual salvation or our promised perfection? I do hate this perspective which implies implicitly that there is something wrong with being physically human, that there is something wicked about flesh itself which God made.quote:It is not about the mixing of blood, it is the origination of Jesus. He was sent by God, not created by man. quote:So Jesus, who came to fulfill in spirit what the law presented in flesh, needs to be without blemish in flesh (whatever that means) to be spiritually perfect? How then is the promise fulfilled that Jesus was of the lineage of David, who was JOSEPH’S, and not Mary’s ancestor? Seriously, got an answer? Joseph is out of the picture in the Immaculate Conception picture. Flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom, according to Jesus. What difference then again, does flesh make to his or to our spiritual condition? The OT law was only a type and shadow of what God was getting at all along—spiritual conditions, not fleshly ones. Why was Jesus gestated through a woman at all, if the point and sign of a miraculous birth from heaven as deity was critical to establish? Why leave “all the appearances of evil”? Why did Jesus have to be a baby at all? He could have just appeared as God did to Moses or others to come show invisible God to us. quote:Wait, where do you get this? Is it in your Bible instruction manual? Or is it an extra-Biblical invention to get God off the hook from the full implications of the eternal torture doctrine? Why does anyone need a gospel at all, if we have this gospel-not-required loophole of being good enough in heart being able to merit God’s favor and salvation, having never heard the gospel or accepting or rejecting anything in particular? Why take the risk of telling the gospel to some perfectly nice people far away, and then guaranteeing their eternal torture when they decide to reject this lovely gift? (Who tortures anyone for declining a gift in the first place? What does that imply about the gift or the Giver?)quote:Those who have never heard the gospel will be judged just as those who have and everyone's heart motive will be most important. If your Bible is the source of all of God’s truth, then you can’t add to it. This is clearly made up out of thin air, saying that God didn’t give us all we need to know in the Bible after all. quote:I quote and paraphrase the words of another who has written well on this parable: “The scribes and Pharisees complained openly and bitterly against Jesus, condemning Him because He received sinners into His company and ate with them. Against this background of biting criticism Jesus stood and gave the teachings found in chapters fifteen and sixteen of Luke... “The rich man in this parable represents the Jewish nation, the house of Judah, and particularly their leaders who embody and personify the spirit and character of the nation. This rich man, in torment, calls Abraham, FATHER. Abraham also recognized such a relationship for he speaks to the rich man as SON. "Son, remember..." Here the rich man is seen to be separated from his father, for "In hell (hades) he lifts up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, FATHER ABRAHAM, have mercy on me...but Abraham said ... SON (Grk., teknon-offspring), between us and you (Grk., YOU PEOPLE) is a GREAT GULF FIXED: so that they (Grk., the ONES) which would pass from hence to you (Grk., YOU PEOPLE) cannot; neither can they pass that would come from thence." If we rightly divide the Word of God we will see that a plurality of people is being addressed, rather than a single individual. Clearly, this rich man was of Israel, of the seed of Abraham, and a blessed and highly favored company. The Pharisees boasted of their descent from Abraham and expected to enter Paradise because of that fact. “Purple is the color of royalty. Fine linen stands for righteousness in this instance the righteousness of the law, established by the priests and Levites who, dressed in white linen, officiated in the sacrifices and ceremonies of the nation. The rich man was "clothed in purple and fine linen." Those who are in purple are rulers. The rich man was a ruler. And Jesus never uttered His parables or sermons concerning someone away off in Siberia or China. He spoke to and of the Jews, the church of His day. Judah was the royal tribe, and purple is the color pertaining to royalty. The kingdom of Judah had the ministry of the priesthood - clothed in fine linen. The whole nation, in fact, was called to be a kingdom of priests unto God (Ex. 19:6). By this language Christ was making His meaning very clear to the Pharisees... “They were the prototype of the Laodicean church who in the book of Revelation is Pharisaic in its boast, "I am RICH ... and have need of nothing" (Rev. 3:17). That utterance embodies in a simple phrase the abominable attitude of the Pharisee towards God and man. It echoes the language of him who thanked "the God within" that he was not as other men, "not even as this publican." Little glimpsed he the truth of his real state, that he was "poor, blind, miserable, and naked" even as the Laodiceans were to be in all their vain self-sufficiency.” The Jews looked upon the heathen nations about them as barbarians and dogs. The literal Greek says, “The OTHER dogs licked Lazarus’ sores.” Lazarus too is seen as one of the dogs in this parable. “In this parable Lazarus was both a beggar and a dog - a beggar in his own eyes, but a dog in the eyes of the rich man. Without doubt Lazarus represented the neighbor kingdoms in Asia, Africa and Europe, right at Judah's gate, without promise, without covenant, without hope, without Christ, without God in the world. “Lazarus was carried to the bosom of Abraham but the rich man was buried, never to become the favored nation of God in their own right again. I want to emphasize this, because it is a very essential point. Lazarus was never buried, he was carried away to a bosom. But the rich man, it says, died AND WAS BURIED. Never again would the kingdom of Judah become the chosen nation of the Lord in their own right. “The expression "in Abraham's bosom" signifies being in the favor and in the place of honor of Abraham. The expression is borrowed from the custom of Christ's day of speaking of the honored guest who reclined nearest the host as reclining on his bosom.” It’s a lengthy dissection of the whole parable. I’ll summarize further. It’s about Jesus predicting the transition of grace and favor from the spritually-enriched, but stingy and spiteful religious rulers of Israel, to the dog gentile nations who until then had had to eat crumbs from the tables of the Jews, spiritually speaking. The Gentile nations were now to occupy the place of favor in “Abraham’s bosom” once reserved for Judah. The hades of torments the Jews were subjected to speaks of the nether realm of wandering, unknowing (Hades literally means “un-perception”) persecution, and torments the Jews have been suffering ever since, for the last 2000 years. No people has ever been as without a home, murdered, and persecuted in the history of the world. They have paid a terrible price for failing to love their neighbors as themselves, with their spiritual riches and privileges they had been given to bless all the nations. The chasm between them and restoration has been that of the “unpardonable sin” which was not to be forgiven the nation of Israel in that age (of the Law) or in the age to come (the Church age). I think it is common knowledge to Christians how nearly impossible it has been to convert Jews to the Christian faith. It is as if God has fixed a gulf and curtain in their own vision to the truth of the gospel. I was writing about this back a ways in this thread. Israel too has a promised restoration and return to grace and favor with God, and in the world we have witness to this beginning in the 20th century as the Jews at long last again found a home in Palestine. This too should indicate to us that a transition of ages in is in the works for all of us, for “the age to come” is wrapping up if the fortunes of Judah, one time rich man of the world who despised the dogs, are being at long last restored. If you don’t find this summary convincing for explaining the symbols Jesus used, I will be happy to send you the full text. It’s almost 40 pages long on this one parable alone. [ Monday, November 07, 2005 14:01: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Monday, November 7 2005 14:05
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I find it hard to continue in this conversation, the limit of questionable or intolerable words has exceeded it's limit. I think it's a bug with the firewalling/blocking system here at the dorms. Probably due to many words in posts. I can't even read the rest of Syn's post, the one that begins quote:Ach, de lieber! -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, November 7 2005 14:16
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Do you see these six words, DP? They are the worst I can see: hell tortured vomited abomination harlot fornication -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 1851
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written Monday, November 7 2005 16:56
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Synergy, it applies to both, for now. -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |