God Stuff (Antichrist! You better spell it right! )
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Monday, October 31 2005 05:14
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Go ahead and send it. We can continue privately. I enjoy hearing new perspectives and ideas even if I end up disagreeing with most. ;) -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 1851
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written Monday, October 31 2005 09:23
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You.. didn't even read my posts, did you? -_-; -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, October 31 2005 14:12
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Gizmo...ok. Riibu...Yes I did. In the first, you selected verses which differentiate between the Father and Jesus, though I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say by selecting them. In the second, you selected verses which state that there is foolishness in the world and in one's own understanding, but again didn't say what you were trying to imply by those...that the Bible alone is the only source of any truth or wisdom? I'd like at least a couple sentences describing what each set of scriptures is saying to you so I know what point you are trying to communicate. If we all clearly saw the same meaning in scriptures by merely reading them, we wouldn't be having this dialogue in the first place. For those who asked how I can have such an optimistic view of God and the future of the planet, here is the tail end of what I wrote yesterday, but did not post. It's a list of Scriptures I find especially meaningful and hopeful, and might I add, highly suggestive and intriguing. If one is going to believe in the promises made there, these are good ones to ponder and embrace. Maybe someone else can state what the themes are. 1) Is 46:10.....God will do all His pleasure 2) Dan 4:35.....God's will done in heaven & Earth and none can stop Him 3) Prv 16:9.....Man devises, but God directs his steps 4) Prv 19:21.....Man devises, but God's counsel will stand 5) Prv 16:33.....The whole disposing thereof is of the Lord 6) Ps 37:23.....The steps of man are ordered of the Lord 7) Ps 33:15.....God fashions all hearts 8) Job 5:17-18.....God wounds then makes whole 9) Hos 6:1-2.....God tears, but in the 3rd day He heals 10) Deut 32:39.....God kills & makes alive, He wounds, then heals 11) Ps 90:3.....God turns man to destruction, then says...return 12) Jer 18:2-6.....God mars vessels & then remakes them 13) Lam 3:31-32.....God will not cast off forever 14) Ps 102:18-20.....God will loose those appointed to death 15) Is 2:2.....All nations will flow to the Lord's house 16) Joel 3:21.....God will cleanse blood that has not been cleansed 17) Gen 18:18.....All families of the earth will be blessed 18) Is 45:22.....All the earth commanded to look and be saved 19) Is 45:23.....Unto God All will bow & every tongue swear 20) Is 40:3-5.....Highway of God enables all flesh to see His Glory 21) Ps 138:4.....All kings will praise God 22) Ps 72:17.....All nations will call Him blessed 23) Ps 86:9.....All nations will worship God & All men blessed 24) Is 52:10.....All earth will see the salvation of God 25) Ps 65:2-4.....All flesh will come to God 26) Is 11:9.....Earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord 27) Ps 66:3-4.....Enemies will submit & All earth will worship 28) Is 19:14-25.....Egypt and Assyria will be restored 29) Ezk 16:55.....Sodom will be restored 30) Ps 68:18.....God will lead captivity captive to dwell in man 31) Is 54:5.....He will be called the God of the whole earth 32) Ps 22:25-29.....All will remember & turn unto the Lord 33) Ps 145:9-10.....God is good to all & merciful to His works 34) Ps 145:14.....Raises all that fall & All that be bowed down 35) Ps 145:15.....Eyes of all wait upon God & He will give them their meat in due season 36) Ps 145:16.....Will satisfy desire of all living 37) Ps 145:9.....The Lord is good to all 38) Ps 145:10.....All thy works shall praise thee 39) Ps 24:1.....The earth is the Lord's and the fullness therof 40) Is 25:6.....The Lord will make unto all people a feast 41) Is 25:7.....He will destroy the veil that's cast over All 42) Is 25:8.....He will swallow up death in victory 43) Is 25:8.....He will wipe away tears from all faces 44) Jer 32:35.....it never entered His mind to pass sons & Daughters through the fire of Molech 45) Ps 135:6.....The Lord did what pleased Him in heaven/earth/sea that His Father gives Him 46) Is 26:9.....When God's judgements are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness 47) Ps 89:2.....Mercy shall be built up forever 1) Eph 1:11.....God works all after the counsel of His will 2) Jn 8:29.....Jesus always does which pleases His Father 3) 1Tim 2:4.....God will have all to be saved 4) 1Jn4:14.....Jesus sent to be the Savior of the World 5) Jn 12:47.....Jesus came to save all 6) 1Tim 2:6.....Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all 7) Jn5:36.....He'll finish the works He was sent to do 8) Jn 4:42.....Jesus is the Saviour of the world 9) Jn 12:32.....Jesus will draw all to Himself 10) Heb 7:25.....Jesus is able to save to the uttermost 11) Col 1:15.....Jesus the first born of all creation 12) Col 1:16.....By Him all things were created 13) Rm 5:15-21.....In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live 14) 1Cor 15:22.....In Adam all die, in Christ All live 15) Eph 1:10.....All come into Him at the fulness of times 16) 1Cor 15:26.....Last enemy, death, will be destroyed 17) Phl 2:9-11.....Every tongue shall confess Jesus as Lord 18) 1Cor 12:3......Cannot confess except by the Holy Ghost 19) Rm 11:26.....All Israel shall be saved 20) Acts 3:20-21.....Restitution (reconstitution) of all 21) Lk 2:10.....Jesus will be the joy to all people 22) Eph 2:7.....His grace to be shown in the ages to come 23) Heb 8:11-12.....All will know God 24) Lk 3:6.....All flesh shall see the salvation of God 25) Titus 2:11.....Grace has appeared to all 26) Rm 8:19-21.....Creation freed from corruption 27) Col 1:20.....All reconciled unto God 28) 1Cor 4:5.....All will have praise of God 29) Jms 5:11.....End of the Lord is full of mercy 30) Rev 15:4.....All nations worship when judgements seen 31) 11Cor 5:17.....New creation in Christ (eph1:10) 32) Rm 11:32.....All subjected to unbeleif, mercy on all 33) Rm 11:36.....All out of God, thru Him, and into Him 34) Eph 4:10.....Jesus will fill all things 35) Rev 5:13.....All creation seen praising God 36) 1Cor 15:28.....God will be all in all 37) Rev 21:4-5.....No more tears, all things made new 38) Jn 5:28.....All dead who hear will live 39) Jn 5:28.....All in the grave will hear and come forth 40) 1Cor 3:15.....All saved, yet so as by fire 41) Mk 9:49.....Everyone will be salted with fire 42) Rm 11:15.....Reconciliation of the world 43) 11Cor 5:15.....Jesus died for all 44) Heb 2:2.....He is the heir of all things 45) Jn 3:35.....All has been given into His hand 46) Jn 17:2.....Jesus will give eternal life to all 47) Jn 6:44-45.....All to be taught of God and will come 48) 1Tim 4:9-11.....Jesus is the Saviour of all 49) Acts 13:47.....Salvation unto the ends of the earth -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Monday, October 31 2005 18:55
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quote:I haven't taken Dispensational Premillenialism as a class yet, but I believe it probably fits in with the Rapture sometime. Speaking of which, I'm curious as to what your view of the rapture is. Or your view of Revelation is, for that matter. If everything can only get better from here, what the heck is the Revelation of John all about? quote:Thankfully for me, Greek students, professors, and New Testements happen to be lying around this place and they're always open for questions. The case and form used in every instance of Word and God is the same, the last "god" is in nominitive form, making it a noun. quote:You took that verse COMPLETELY out of context. Proof of this is the very next verse, which continues "For by him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." (NIV, Colossians 1:16) EDIT: Yay for edit buttons! [ Monday, October 31, 2005 18:56: Message edited by: Desert Pl@h ] -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, October 31 2005 21:30
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quote:Oh sure, NOW it gets interesting again. I won’t be permitted that simple an escape after all, evidently. Let’s see if I have it in me to write something relatively briefer. And don’t get me wrong, things can get worse from certain perspectives in order for the greater good to come to all of us. The overall progression of the unfolding Kingdom of God and His grace upon the earth is one of increase and improvement. Each new dispensation is a big expansion from the last. It started in Genesis where one man had to offer one sacrifice for himself. It ends in Revelation, where Christ is seen as “All in all” and victorious over all flesh, the One sacrifice ably given for all. First, just a bit on Tabernacles, which was the third of three main feasts. Passover was of course fulfilled spiritually in the death of Jesus and wrapped up the age of the law. Pentecost was fulfilled when the Holy Spirit descended upon those gathered in the upper room some days after Jesus had departed. Pentecost was the feast of firstfruits, the fruit or grain which ripened early before the main harvest, and was gathered to celebrate the promise of the full harvest to come. The Holy Spirit given to humankind for this dispensation of the “church age” or “age of grace” is just a sampling, a down payment of the fullness of the Spirit/harvest yet to come in the earth. The extent that the Kingdom of God has been represented in the earth and done its work is also merely a sampling and not the full harvest itself. Tabernacles is the feast celebrating the full harvest (and itself contains several smaller feasts). The fullness of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit upon all flesh, the fullness of the Kingdom, the full salvation of humankind, and the summing up of all things in Christ are yet to be fulfilled. There is yet a dispensation of the work and grace of God to come, and it far outsizes anything the world has seen yet. If you refer to many of the passages I referenced in my last post, we can see a lot of very encouraging promises of fullness and completeness of God’s work in the world, in its inhabitants, and the extent of the salvation He bought for all the world. For anyone who is not automatically threatened by the possible roles of the stars in the heavens, which God created and said He gave as signs, it is known that we are in or near a period of change from the age of Pisces (the two fishes, fish being a symbol of the church and also two being the number of witness), to the age of Aquarius, the one who pours the jar of water out upon the earth. This represents a transition of ages to the fullness of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, symbolized often by water, upon the earth. The signs of the Zodiac are highly spiritual, and predate the Babylonian religion of astrology. Some traditions trace the Zodiac back to Noah’s sons. I believe the signs (12 in number, 12 being the Biblical number of divine government) tell a very Biblical, spiritual story of the progressive works of God in the world and within us. It is also good to note that God makes things specially complete in threes, thus the importance of recognizing the three feasts, even if we are yet in the second. The view of “rapture” which I espouse, in a nutshell, is that there is nothing of the sort as a physical event either before or after a “tribulation.” There is a very in-depth and wonderful series of writings on the six words in Greek which all got translated in English as the “coming” of Christ in the New Testament (link below). One can see much more consistent and meaningful interpretations of the disparate handful of verses uses to assemble the modern rapture theories. The words mean a variety of things, and the verses lumped together to support a rapture can readily be seen to be talking about numerous different kinds of appearing and the presence of and revealing of Christ. If anyone is seriously interested in exploring the subject, I recommend the articles I linked. Looking For His Appearing It is interesting to note, that one of those six words is “apokalupsis” which is simply the title of the book of “Revelation.” Apocalypse means “unveiling”, or “revelation”. So, what is this book Revelation all about really, full of so many strange and fearful images? The very first verse gives us some very basic and very useful information: YLT: Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John, KJV: Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: First, the book is a vision given to John, the beloved disciple while in exile under Emperor Domitian on the isle of Patmos. The title of the vision is right at the beginning: The Revelation of Jesus Christ. It’s a book revealing, unveiling Jesus the anointed Savior in some way. Second, a critical detail to note is the word “signified.” This word in Greek literally means “put into signs.” The vision is put into signs. It is symbolic. Jesus spoke in parables. Prophecies are given in symbols. This is the language of the Spirit. So why people look at the imagery in the vision and fear literal hailstones falling, seas turning into literal blood, literal locust-like creatures hurting people, a literal “man of sin” walking into a literal temple in Jerusalem and ruling the earth, literal fires or beasts or lambs—or anything else in the vision—is simply baffling. A third thing to note is the vision talks about things “to come to pass shortly/quickly”. It was imminent. It speaks of things pertinent to the time the vision was given, not some distant sci-fi tale of dread for a far off age 2000 years or more into the future. It continues to be pertinent. Additionally, Unlike the Old Testament prophecy of Daniel which was about literal earthly kingdoms and was sealed (hidden from understanding) until the time of its fulfillment, The Revelation is not sealed up, not meant to be obscure. It is meant to be a revelation after all, not a mystery. Believe it or not there is scarcely a symbol in the Revelation that hasn’t already been used elsewhere in Bible prophecy. None of them would have been unfamiliar to a good Jew who knew his Old Testament. Those earlier useages help to tell us a lot about the meanings of the symbols. Too much to go into here of course, but way cool to look at. So, whatever is in The Revelation we know was already beginning or soon to begin unfolding, and that it involves the revealing of Jesus Christ. Everything else is incidental to and supportive of that theme. In this light, many have come to see the vision talking about the plans and means at the disposal of Jesus Christ to reveal Himself within all of us and to all creation. He purchased all with His blood. He has been given the keys of death and hell and triumped over death for all the world. The revelation is a glorious and sometimes sobering picture of how He is going to come forth and conquer all hearts and usher in the fullness of the Kingdom in earth, seen in the New Jerusalem (a new heavenly government) appearing in the earth. The scroll of seven seals is the Kinsman-Redeemer scroll of Hebrew culture and written about in the Old Testament. It involves the case in which a person sold into slavery for a debt he could not pay could be redeemed by a blood relative who paid the debt. The scroll was sealed until that debt was paid, and only a kinsman-redeemer could take the scroll and break the seal, releasing the debtor into from his bondage. So, this is what the opening of the scroll in Revelation is all about...our ultimate and complete redemption from slavery to sin and death. It’s a familiar cultural symbol to a Jew in the first century A.D. It means little to modern Europeans and Americans. This is a very good example of how we need to learn something of cultural context if we hope to make anything meaningful out of much of scripture. Jesus is of course our Kinsman-Redeemer Who is worthy to open the scroll and who purchased us with His blood. Seven is the Hebrew number of divine perfection/completion (on the seventh day God rested) It is a perfect work completed by breaking seven seals. Jesus is also the rider of the four horses coming forth to make war on our earth. He lays waste to our inner soil of carnal thoughts and works, for we are earth and we are the garden in which He plants the good seed. We may have to have our false crops beaten down with hailstones, our fields ridden over and plowed up for new life to be birthed from the soil of our soul, our waters turned bitter so we might turn to drink only of the life-giving water of the Holy Spirit. We have to be killed even with “death” (to former thoughts and ways) and starved of what has formerly and falsely sustained us. He is the Hound of Heaven, the Conqueror on the white horse (always a symbol of purity) riding into our earth to conquer sin and death in US. There is a false prophet to the truth and life of the working of Christ. There is a harlot church/bride who fornicates with the kings of the earth, working against our ultimate redemption and union with the true Bridegroom, yet even God calls her a golden cup in His hand, achieving His ends despite her whoring ways. There is a bestial system in the world which rises out of the seas, (which are the symbol of the deep churning waters of the carnal soul) which opposes and attempts to subdue and rule us instead of Christ within us. There is a “man of sin” (spuriously and erroneously assumed to be “the antichrist”) within us which seeks to make itself god within the temple that we are. There is no antichrist mentioned in all of Revelation. It is mentioned four times in the three books of John, and if someone is curious, I’ll do a little examination of those in a future post. The vision of the Revelation applies both to our inner world and the outer world as a whole, but it is primarily an individual process each of us must undergo for Christ to be revealed in us, for us to “overcome.” It’s all highly picturesque and symbolic of the grand warfare for the earth of our soul—the war Jesus Christ wages to make overcomers fit to usher in the fullness of the Kingdom (the feast of Tabernacles fullfilled) upon the earth, both our inner earth, and resultingly, the outer earth of the planet. It is an age-long work yet in process, soul by soul. It’s been going on for 2000 years. The exciting thing is the book does end with that war finished, that victory complete, and the blessings of divine rulership (from inside out) given out to all the world. NOTE: I figured out I can actually post what I wrote yesterday, if anyone other than Jewels/Gizmo, whose post it addresses, would like to see what it was about. It’s my longest yet, I’m afraid. [ Monday, October 31, 2005 22:29: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 03:07
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quote:No, because exactly. Through him all things were created. Jehovah HIMSELF created ONLY JESUS, and then used Jesus as his masterworker for creating everything else. And there's a dozen and dozen more verses for that and more, but darn it! For some reason I imagined I would have time to start my NaNo novel today... Damn you internet! >.< Later! -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 09:01
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quote:Oh, dear. The fish symbol is derived from the greek word for fish (icthys), the letters of which are an acrostic put together by early christians that say in greek (roughly) Jesus Christ God Son and Savior. This was used as a code symbol for early christians to identify with each other without fear of being killed in the roman empire. quote:Does this mean that, because I'm the third son of a third son of a third son (that's 3 generations) that I'm complete in some way? God also used other "special" numbers, such as the number 40 (look in the old testement, it's everywhere) or 7 or 12. quote:So tell me, what are each of the seven seals symbolic of? (see later down for more on this) quote:Tell me, what's shortly or quickly for God? It took 400+ years for his promise of a Messiah to be fulfilled (thousands if you include Genesis' promise to the woman). Not a point I've heard much about on either side, something I should ask about and research so I can back it up. quote:The section with these seals being opened is clearly about the Earth. The horsemen are told to do actions upon the Earth (take peace, etc). How does your theory apply the fifth seal? quote:I don't think it ever mentions a harlot church. quote:First, I'm going to have to ask you to re-translate "No, because exactly." Second, The Gospel of John, 10:30 "I and the/my Father are One." (NIV/KJV) And, of course, Jesus never resisted being worshipped as God. Oh, and Syn, I looked up your verse from Joel, (about cleansing the blood) and that is written directly to Judah. Read the stuff before it that has a bunch of not-nice things to say to Egypt and Edom. This is one of the big points of Dispensationalism, a rule that says we can't substitute "the Church" or "believers" in the Old Testement prophecy any place it says "Isreal" or "Judah". [ Tuesday, November 01, 2005 09:05: Message edited by: Desert Pl@h ] -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Master
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 09:31
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Can somebody explain me only one thing: If jehovah was created before Jesus, then who or what created Jehovah? No don't tell me he was just POOF! created. I think that in general a religion is nothing more then shifting the things human beings don't understand to something that is even less logical. How logical is it that we shift the question of "who created us?" to a person who probably created us and call him god, only to not understand were god the hell came from? -------------------- Thralni's almighty Avernum pages: My webpage, containing scenario's and graphics made by me (And maybe someday the homepage of the almighty chicken gods). Click here for more information on Olga's fortune teller kiosk Olga's fortune teller kiosk has been temporarily closed down, but you can contact the prophet with a PM - Was signed by the prophet of the almighty chicken gods, gods of everything that is a chicken. Work has begun on the Nephilian grammar and vocabulary guide! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 10:11
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Nobody created Jehovah. He's always been. ALWAYS. For eternity and more. Understandably that can be hard to understand, but that's just it. He's God, we're humans. Mortal, for the time being. Plah, I'm getting to you later. [ Tuesday, November 01, 2005 10:11: Message edited by: Pien' Kiusanhenki ] -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Master
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 10:16
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quote:I'm not going to get this. Then if he was always there, why not create us earlier? Or did it take much time for him to make the earth? I thought he did that in only seven days? -------------------- Thralni's almighty Avernum pages: My webpage, containing scenario's and graphics made by me (And maybe someday the homepage of the almighty chicken gods). Click here for more information on Olga's fortune teller kiosk Olga's fortune teller kiosk has been temporarily closed down, but you can contact the prophet with a PM - Was signed by the prophet of the almighty chicken gods, gods of everything that is a chicken. Work has begun on the Nephilian grammar and vocabulary guide! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 10:53
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Who knows? Anyway, how do you how long he waited, or whatever. Would you rather we didn't exist yet? He started too soon? Too late? What is time, when there was only Jehovah, King of eternity? Also, just think of science. It's proved that the earth is millions of years old. If the seven days were literal, earth would only be 6000 years old. But it's not. The seven days are figurative. They were long periods of time, thousands of years. Then Plah: quote:No, as in not out of context. Because exactly, as in you sort of got it correct, but not entirely. quote:Let's have some verses that are linked to this as explanation. John 10:38 "But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, in order that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father." John 17:11 "Also, I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are." Jesus' name means 'Jehovah is salvation' (or maybe escape, rescue, salvage... You get the point). My source information is in Finnish so I'm having to translate this in my best knowledge. But in that way Jesus has Jehovah's name in his own name. It wasn't a rare name, either. That's why he was sometimes called Jesus of Nasareth. John 17:21 "in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth." I'm myself, not everyone else, but I may be in union with other people. Jesus meant that he is Jehovah's representative. Because "Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me."" (John 7:16). When Jesus said that who has seen him, has seen the God, he meant the same. Jesus has been with Jehovah in very close proximity, for billions of years. Remember John 1:1-3? Jesus is Word and he was with God in the beginning, that beginning being the first verses of Genesis. He was there as the masterworker. And some more: Romans 12:5 "so we, although many, are one body in union with Christ, but members belonging individually to one another." 1 Corinthians 1:10 "Now I exhort you, brothers, though the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought." Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus." 1 John 1:7 "However, if we are walking in the light as he himself is in the light, we do have a sharing with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin." John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in union with the Father and the Father is in union with me? The things I say to you men I do not speak of my own originality; but the Father who remains in union with me is doing his works." quote:What, by the church you mean? Catholics and all of them? Or in his own times? [ Tuesday, November 01, 2005 10:54: Message edited by: Pien' Kiusanhenki ] -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 11:26
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quote:Possible, but there's no reason God couldn't have used 7 days. I ask you to remember that God is outside of time. Time is a restriction that we live and think by. Being God allows him to create a universe in no time, because with God there is no time. Besides, we all know carbon-dating is flawed (somewhat of a joke, I don't have the facts to back that up, and is not meant to become a point of contention). I'm not saying I believe firmly in either the 7 day or the intelligent design theory, I'm just saying either is possible. A point to be dropped. quote:I have no idea what the finnish bible was translated from, but two word for word translations (KJV and NASB) and a thought for thought translation (NIV) don't have the word union anywhere in there. I've only checked 3, and not the Greek, but I think it's a good bet that the word isn't in there. quote:I looked that up, and that's similar to what the KJV says, but it's not very strong. The NIV has another "one" at the end, and it's referenced to John 10:30, where Jesus stated with the same word that he and the Father are "one". I want to see the Greek on this… The KJV was translated from different manuscripts than the NIV, and the NIV manuscripts are older, so I'm a little more partial to it, even though the words are a bit more mixed for grammar purposes. quote:Again, I didn't see the words "union with" in there anywhere, and I'm really curious as to how to speak finnish :P . quote:John 1:1 says "In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God." Key words: was God. Later on, in verse 18, John says "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known." quote:I meant by those in his time. -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 11:58
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7 days: possibly, but what's the point? Why do it like in a magical way, when you could go about naturally? Anyway, I'm using my English Bible for all the verses I type out. So for those unions? I'd have to find a CD with my source material in English (and I asked for one from my friend, but she didn't remember to give it to me). It makes sense, anyway. In his time? At what point? -_- C'mon, gimme some lines. Also, since I'm getting tired of this arguing (nobody ever changes their mind, etc etc), "O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then -- one's name would not be cut off or be annihilated from before me." (Isaiah 48:18,19) If I get the CD in English someday soon, I might throw you the source material straight off, but I also have a better idea. Want to continue? The next time a JW comes on your door, start a conversation. They'll be more than happy to answer your questions, and they'll be able to do it better than me, because they're talking in their own darn language! They'll also understand you better than me. I know I left a lot of points not addressed, but this is just overly complicated. An actual JW from around your neighbourhood will know and be able to answer. (And I want some time for my NaNo novel too. *pout*) -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 12:10
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I didn't start reading any of this until just now, but if there is any confusion about what any parts of the Greek New Testament are literally saying, I'm happy to offer my services as a Greek translator. I'm a Classics major, after all, and the Septuagint is quite a lot easier than Plato. As far as that chunk of John 10:38, it says: "in order that you know [at one point in time] and know [continuously] that in me is the father and I am in the father." There is no word for "union," and also, the word "in" in Greek (en) is usually pretty literal with regard to place or space, although it can mean "in one's power" also. John 17:11 ends, "in order that they be one [thing] as we [are]." The word for "one" is in the neuter, which is a gender used for things, which indicates "one thing," and the verb "to be" is often dropped, as it is here, suggesting "are." Point me to specific places and specific issues, and I can translate whatever you want from the original. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 14:30
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Wow, Kel, I never would have guessed. Okay, I'm done as far as anything is concerned. I learned not to try and change people's minds a long time ago, this is for strengthening my own faith and of those around me. Specifically those on the board. Fun trivia: The JW Kingdom Halls in and around my city have no windows…anywhere :P . -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Agent
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 17:54
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re-Synergy's list of scripture and theme. Obviously your theme is that all people will be brought to Christ/God/Heaven eventually (even if they already died in their sin and rebellion?) It cannot be true, though, if the whole Bible is to be believed. (I know you think it isn't) For every verse you have quoted (mis-quoted perhaps) there is another saying that not everyone will get into heaven. What you have left out is that there is one more element to our becoming saved. We must accept Jesus. The gift is freely given to all but He doesn't make anyone accept it. The verse you quoted, John 17:2 says "You gave the Son power over all people so that the Son could give eternal life to all those you gave him."(NCV) "For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him."(NIV) "As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him."(KJV) None of these say "will" as you have said. I would like a Greek translation from Kel if possible. There is a big difference between saying one will do something and saying one might/could/should do something. I would say that he might/could/should grant eternal live to all who accept him. Then just one (since my time grows short) of the many verses that say not all will be with God in the end. Matthew 7:21-23 (the words of Jesus) 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 23:31
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quote:Guess why. Vandalism. :\ New Kingdom Halls, depending on where they're built, are often built without windows, because all in all it's cheaper. Some people like to throw stones... The Kingdom Hall I go to does have windows. Big windows ( :) ), but it's quiet neighbourhood and Finland's Betel is just next to it. Yeah, anyway.. just to show that it's nothing odd. -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Tuesday, November 1 2005 23:55
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quote:It’s neither my list nor “my” theme. I didn’t write them. I’m curious what themes are seen in them. How do these kinds of scriptures fit into context with other beliefs which are held about what scripture says about the nature of God and the extent of His redemptive plans? quote:I do hate to see words like “cannot.” That’s a very closed-minded word we should use great discretion in using. I do not say I “believe” or don’t “believe” the Bible. What I do say is that we need to be wise and seeking about understanding humanity, culture, and context, and how I think it is plain that God permits truth to come through those lenses to us to be rightly discerned by the Spirit within us. It does nothing to negate the myriad truths and wonders found in all that writing. It’s no actual threat that humanity leaks through, because it’s not a divine instruction manual. It’s a bunch of writings pointing us to God so we might have our own reconnection with God and begin to learn for ourselves in spirit what is truth and error, wherever we happen to find it, including any place outside the Bible, because I can promise you God likes to speak to us through many disparate means if we are paying attention. What I believe in is God as the Father of my life. I believe in the nature and purposes of His love. My faith is not placed in a book, or its writers, but in the living Spirit of God which speaks through it to me, just as it is. It doesn’t have to be something to me that it actually isn’t. Life is not in any book. It is in relationship. That book could go away entirely and God and man would still have the means to be known of one another. You have yet to explain to me upon what exactly you base your insistence what 66 books of scripture have to be. All we have is popular belief. Is there any other reason you feel safe in being absolutely certain that you, 2000-4000 years from its writing, know exactly how God gave it, why God gave it, how much God gave it, and to what ends God gave it? Because, I don’t even see anything in there about God talking about some magic book He’s going to assemble for us over time to tell us everything we need to know about God. Any claims to what the Bible itself IS are...extra-Biblical. What I do see is a very telling reprimand like this from the mouth of Jesus: John 5: 39-40 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. quote:Quite right. I am not examining or questioning the MEANS of our salvation at all. Merely the extent. We all know stories of hopeless reprobates who have come into faith in God. There is no kind of person it has not happened to. The Lord even accosted Saul, the torturer and murderer of Christians, on the road and changed his mind in a heartbeat. And so Saul became Paul. The Hound of Heaven can accost any of us with the means necessary to get our attention and awaken our sleeping spirits to knowing, to faith, to belief—according to His will and timing. No one is coerced into loving a loveable Father. They merely need to be properly reintroduced. I suggest the limitation with which Christendom has been successful in this mission reflects the degree to which they have learned how to exercise the Spirit effectively to do so. There is no person who is beyond reach. But the time has not yet been for the full harvest in the earth or in the grave. It has not happened only because God has not yet chosen to do it. He is the Father. He wields the means, grace and judgement/discipline alike, with which to correct us and win us, without coercion. quote:How can I misquote a scripture I made no comment upon? It’s simply THERE. You tell me what they are saying. You explain away all those “alls” into “somes”. You reconcile the heart of a Father Who is love and a Christ Who is the Good Shepherd with your doctrinal interpretation of other scriptures. It has to all harmonize, and what we have here are a lot of verses which should cause us to humbly ask the Holy Spirit to show us what it all means and what sort of God He is, not believe in the traditions of men, which render the gospel of no effect. Also, I challenge wholesale, the statement at the end of your sentence, but before anyone attempts to do so, let’s wait till we have done a little closer looking at Greek next time I write. quote:Even with this translation seeming to suggest in English what we think of with the word “could”, let’s thinkg about it. If Jesus COULD give life to all, why wouldn’t He? The authority and keys are put in His hands, not passively, but actively. Look at all the scriptures I referenced before which state in no uncertain terms Whose will is higher than ours, and Who always does what He wants and wills. So, Jesus doesn’t want to save all He was given? Or He is unable to do so? He was able to save YOU and ME, by grace, by His awakening of our hearts and eyes to His reality, not because you and I are more clever and wise and deserving of this great gift of salvation. You and I aren’t smarter. We aren’t better. We aren’t more loved by God than others. We weren’t born with “better spirits.” You and I believe into our salvation only because He drew us first. He woke us from the lie of the matrix, if you will. It was His work. Here’s Young’s Literal Translation of the Greek. YLT - John 17:1-2 These things spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to the heaven, and said--`Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee, according as Thou didst give to him authority over all flesh, that--all that Thou hast given to him--he may give to them life... “God gave Jesus authority over all flesh so that to all whom He had given Jesus, Jesus may give life...” How many did the Father give Jesus authority over? All flesh. How many will be given life? All that the Father gave to Jesus. How many is that? All of them. What are the limits to which our Good Shepherd is able and willing to go to rescue souls unto salvation? 99 sheep out of 100 are safely in the fold. The Shepherd goes out into the night to take by force the lost sheep and bring it back to the fold. The Shepherd rules the sheep, not the sheep the Shepherd. He knows what “gets” us. Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Ro 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 1Pe 3:18-20 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Whoa, wait a minute...Jesus preached to the DEAD, spirits in “prison” dead from the days of Noah! Who said death, hell, or grave is off bounds to the reach of the Savior to save? Peter talks about it again, below: 1Pe 4:5-6 but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead, that though judged in the flesh like men, they might live in the spirit like God. quote:Please note first the words Jesus speaks which are different from the ones Christians speak...”enter the kingdom of heaven.” This is speaking about entering a realm of spiritual rulership and authority. Kingdoms are realms of heirarchy. Note that not here, nor anywhere else in the whole Bible will you see the phrase, “go to heaven”, “get to heaven”, or “enter heaven.” Jesus was always talking about a Kingdom, not a celestial reward akin to Viking Valhalla. The view Christianity largely holds of “heaven” today is still the infantile thinking of the pagans, who also believed in literal physical rewards and punishments in the afterlife....somehow 20 virgins promised to the Muslim suicide warrior also come to mind. It is true that many who say, “Lord, Lord” will not have earned entrance into the position of rulership with the true Head of the realm of heavens, and will therefore require an age of correction. Those people, ironically, are primarily the religious and devout who never learned to enter in under the dominion of the Spirit and have their souls tamed, but have been operating out of flesh and selfish (if well-intentioned) motivation. They are not prepared for the realm of rulership, which a kingdom implies. Revelation talks about the overcomer being worthy to be kings and priests of Christ (spiritual authority with the mission to bless humankind). That is entering the kingdom. I think it is quite simply the case that the scriptures have virtually nothing to say to describe what exists in the realm of spirit before we are born or after one has died. This is not important for our present understanding, just as we don’t need to understand the era of dinosaurs on the planet at the moment. Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him The heavenly reward is a Kingdom—a realm of rulership, privilege, authority, and work to be done. But this is not mere remission of the penalty for sin. It is attained through merit. This is really why we are here and what salvation is for, not just a selfish, for me act. It’s to save me from myself so I can be granted authority and power to bring others into their redemption and minister the life of God to all creation. This has nothing to do with afterlife in itself. I will offer once more just a few scriptures now fully quoted. These are just a small few of many to be explained away and away and away to show how God doesn’t actually do what He wills, that Jesus didn’t actually pay the price for all sins once for all, and that God is not desinted to fill all things full of Himself. John 12:47 "I did not come to judge the world, but to save THE WORLD" 1 John 4:14 "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the savior of THE WORLD" I Timothy 2:4,6 "God our Savior, who desires (wills) ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth...Christ, who gave Himself as a ransom FOR ALL, the testimony borne at the proper time." Ephesians 1:11 "according to His purpose, who works ALL things after the counsel of HIS WILL" (His will is that ALL be saved) John 12:32 "And I, if I be lifted up (on the cross) from the earth, WILL draw ALL men to Myself." (Please note, KEL (?) that the Greek word here for “draw” is very forceful. It means “dragged.”) Hebrews 7:25 "He is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through Him" Colossians I:15 "And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of ALL creation" (All creation is to be reborn into this image through Christ). Romans 5:18 "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to ALL men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life TO ALL MEN" (God’s grace is equal to the falling from grace, in fact much greater). Ro 5:20 And law came in, that the offence might abound, and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound (Ah, God’s grace OVERabounds in relation to sin). I Corinthians 15:22,26 "For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ ALL shall be made alive...the last enemy that will be abolished is death." Luke 3:6 "And ALL mankind shall see the salvation of God" Ephesians 1:10 "..the fullness of times, the summing up of ALL things in Christ, things in the heavens and things upon the earth." Colossians I:19,20 "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him (Christ) and through Him to reconcile ALL things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven" Romans 11:32 "For God has shut up ALL in disobedience that He might show mercy to ALL" There are many more. How many alls does it take till we believe HIM and not the tradtions of men which have rendered the gospel of no effect? When Jesus came, the religious experts of the Jews had so messed up the law and their understanding that Jesus had savage words of condemnation for them. Is it out of the realm of likelihood (let alone possibility), that Christians have done the exact same kind of thing with their traditions of belief from once inspired words? Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. KELANDON, I summon thee to do some bidding if thou will.... Please investigate the following words in Greek and share your knowledge: “aion” “aionian” What do these mean in Greek and what modern English words derive from them? The next thing I will write about involves this very matter, and it is pivotal. Selah. [ Wednesday, November 02, 2005 00:04: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Wednesday, November 2 2005 01:16
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Not THIS next thing. A later next thing. quote:I have a really cool book that explores the Hebrew/Semitic use of numbers, and the scriptures are full of such useage for many numbers. I love this stuff. quote:Yikes, man, don’t you think my posts are too long as they are? That’s a huge topic. But, generally, they are the processes Christ, the Conqueror armed with the two-edged sword of the Word and riding us down upon powerful horses, uses to break open our full redemption from our carnality (earthy!) in thinking and doing so we may become overcomers fit to be given spiritual authority as kings and priests in Christ. We are all a microcosm. We have an inner earth, sea, and heaven within us to be conquered and subdued and made bride to the bridegroom so a Manchild can be born out of us with maturity to be “caught up to the throne (rulership) of God”. This is what we must endure if we are to win the race and attain as Paul exhorted us. Or, to put it really simply, Christ has to do a serious remodel job inside us to make us fit to rightly administer His life to the world with the authority to do it. Kind of like the brutal training soldiers and weight-lifters have to endure in which autonomy or muscles are broken down in order to build a new discipline. quote:God exists beyond all time as we know it. Or we could say it is all lying out before Him at all times. But it’s a mindblower, timelessness. The point here is, though, that this was a prophecy given to the body of believers through John around 90 A.D. saying the time is at hand. It’s not about what time is to God. It’s what is time to those receiving the message. When prophecies were made concerning the Christ to come, God did not say, “This is going to come to pass shortly.” That’s the simplest obvious difference. quote:Signified, signified, sign-ified. Put into signs. The earth is a symbol. The whole book is symbols. There are literal seas, earth, and heavens, and there are prophetic/spiritual seas, earth, and heaven. The horses being ridden aren’t literal. The earth being brutalized in various ways isn’t terra firma, and Jesus isn’t really a lamb or a lion. The stars are not going to fall out of the “heavens”, but the lights which have guided us which are not the Sun are going to fall from their position of being “lights” to us. The heavens in us are the spiritual place of rulership over us, the earth is our soulish realm (mind/will/emotions) which is to fuse a new creation life married to the Spirit in us, and the seas are the low, murky, seething basest carnality within us, animal passion and fleshly appetites. All three must be brought into subjection to Christ for us to overcome and be made kings and priests. There will be great shakings and earthquakes. The city we have built is going to fall and Christ will build the mansion and make us fit to partake of the “holy city” that is New Jerusalem. Five is the number of grace. The fifth seal involves a work of grace involved in our complete redemption. Re 6:9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held When you really are able to start seeing with the eyes of high spiritual language, you may see that souls are indeed slain by the horseman during the fourth seal. Your soul has to die in order to be born again into a new life in Christ. It happens below the altar (found in the temple which is within us) because of the Word which is a two-edged sword proceeding from the mouth of Christ. When we bear witness to the Word of God coming to us with life and power, it also has power to kill, so we might live anew. It kills the old soul life. quote:Prophetic symbology is consistent. God is helpful like that, just as His nature never changes. A “woman” in prophecy is a church, and also speaks of the soul which is represented by the female. “Church” in Greek is “ekklesia” and means “the called out”. In Revelation, we have a pure bride (our soul) given in union to Christ (the Spirit) to give birth to a mature manchild with the authority to rule rightly (over our inner earth in particular), and we have a fornicating, drunken harlot who calls herself the bride, but in reality has used the kings of the earth (political, earthly power on one level, and also the faculties of the mind will and emotions separate from the anointing with Christ on the most spiritual level). Both are a called out people, one pure and true, and one soulish and carnal. Both are cities too: Babylon and New Jerusalem. [quote]I looked up your verse from Joel, (about cleansing the blood) and that is written directly to Judah. Read the stuff before it that has a bunch of not-nice things to say to Egypt and Edom. This is one of the big points of Dispensationalism, a rule that says we can't substitute "the Church" or "believers" in the Old Testement prophecy any place it says "Isreal" or "Judah".[/quote]I can’t say it’s a rule. What Israel and the law were in the OT prefigures, shadows, and types much of what the full body of believers are in the dispensation of grace (and beyond) given to all the earth. It’s there to demonstrate a principle of how God works either way. Prophecies like Joel are awesome in that they have had both an earthly fulfillment (like the feasts) and a more spiritual fulfillment which we can experience internally when God’s judgements are going to work in us. The names of all those nations have meanings, and when you look at what the nations represent by the meaning of their names, you can begin to see what God has promised to do in our own inner earth on a spiritual level too. Not sure what you believe about the Lucifer fallen angel thing, but if you look at the prophecy in Isaiah 14, you’ll see that “lucifer” is the “day star” who was the king of Babylon in that day and was being prophesied against to fall from his place in the heavens (again, heavens are the prophetic realm of rulership). Thus, his name in prophecy was a star so bright, you could see it in the day. Four verses later, it calls him a man who is dragged down the grave. How Churchianity got a fallen angel out of that passage is way beyond my comprehension. On a personal spiritual level though, Babylon means confusion and is associated with a false church and false religion, so there is a judgement to come in our own soul in which false kings of religion are going to be put down like a star falling from heaven. This mirrors falling stars in Revelation, and the “beast” in Revelation who sets himself up as God in the inner temple of our soul, as does much OT prophecy, though it had more immediate earthly fulfillments Israel could observe in many cases. In others, it has not yet been observed—the restoration of Sodom. [ Wednesday, November 02, 2005 01:20: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
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written Wednesday, November 2 2005 05:14
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Question for Riibu: I really don't want to offend or attack you, I am just curious. I've been told that 90% of JW's don't know their own history. So I'd like to ask you if you know how many times JW's founding fathers have predicted the end of the world to a specific year and been wrong (or misunderstood as they always claimed)? Secondly do you know how many of JW's founding fathers claimed to be avid in Greek and other languages then prooved to be liars in court when they could not do any translation in front of the judge? I cringe to see someone blindly following a herd, but if you do know and have decided that it doesn't matter then my hat's off to you. Please expand on what you think about it. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Wednesday, November 2 2005 08:13
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By the way, I'm using the Greek texts available at the Perseus Classics site. John 17:2 ends: "just as you gave to him authority over all flesh [i.e. the physical or natural order of things], so that all whom you have given to him, he will give to them perpetual life." As far as I can tell, that's a purpose clause with a future indicative, which is an odd alternative construction — it's rare in Attic prose, although I'm not sure about Koine. This construction expresses the purpose for which something was done, not the actual effect, but drawing the verb in the purpose clause out into the indicative (instead of a normal subjunctive or optative) suggests to me that the author believes that this will be the outcome also (a "vivid" construction). This is peculiar, though, and I'll ask my Greek teacher about it. The word "aion" in Greek (with a long O, I might add) gives us "aeon" in Latin and English. The adjectival form is "aionios," which declines to "aionian" in one form. And you know, LSJ (the big, authoritative Classical Greek dictionary) makes sure to draw a distinction between "aionios" (perpetual, lasting for an age) and "aidios" (eternal, everlasting). As far as I can tell, "aion" in Greek means much the same as it does in English: literally, it's an indeterminantly long but finite period of time, but often it suggests forever. [ Wednesday, November 02, 2005 08:29: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Cartographer
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written Wednesday, November 2 2005 09:00
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quote:Well, our history begins from the very first days as described in Genesis... but you're probably familiar with those, and I think you mean to ask about Russell and those that came after him. Right? We've read all that. But who they were and what they did has absolutely no affect on us, because we don't follow them. Witnesses study the Bible and learn what it teaches, follow those meanings and do their best to make Jehovah feel happy about them. Also, because I think this is rather well said: quote:(From the Beliefnet boards, by SherB) It's a good point. Okay, so some people became too eager and misintepreted the Bible, but we know more now. We try to learn and understand more, personally. And my very own opinion? Who cares. So people were wrong. I don't know about any trials where people didn't know Greek, but again, it doesn't make much difference now. We've got about 6 million members around the world, so I'm pretty sure there are lots of people working as translators who've studied hebrew and know what they're doing. I trust in Jehovah to take care of us, Jesus to rule on as he already does (although not fully, that's still to come) and the faithful slave to deliver the spiritual food we need. Along with daily Bible studying and more. (which reminds me, I need to start looking at some material for my speech which is December.. it'll be very first one, yay! ^^) -------------------- "Son--err," her father said, "I mean... Daughter, I give you your first and only sword. Use it for with skill for great villainy." Nanoisms Ooh! Homepage - Blog - Geneforge, +2, +3 - My Elfwood Gallery - WannabeCool Forums So many strange ones around. Don't you think? Posts: 1308 | Registered: Sunday, September 8 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Wednesday, November 2 2005 16:06
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quote:All these statements of yours seem to be based on an interpretation of scripture that you say is a result of the Holy Spirit at work in you. I claim to have the same Holy Spirit working in me, and come to a different conclusion. Because I also believe that the Spirit would not lead two different people to different conclusions, I doubt whether or not you have the Holy Spirit working in you. You might think the same of me. This cannot be resolved by anything we have to say, only by what happens after we die. quote:Are you saying that it's already taken place? That seems to be what you're saying, in your earlier post. quote:A woman can also mean woman, city, nation, or group of people. The concept of a church was unknown to OT writers. The most they had was a temple, and there was only one of those. quote:It's a rule of Dispensational theology. You're trusting that you've got the Holy Spirit making this clear to you, that Isreal is indeed representative of the Church/all-believers, which is something that distinguishes Dispensationalism from Covenant theology. One of those minor divisions among denomonations. And I have a simple question, which can only accept a yes or no answer (hopefully I'll word it right so that's true!): Do you believe that all people, whether "christian" or not, dead or not, will enter what you understand to be the "Kingdom of Heaven?" -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Wednesday, November 2 2005 18:27
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quote:I’ll state again that I am not a great original thinker or researcher. These are not my own ideas. Others have done great research, study, and spiritual seeking to begin restoring a lot of this vision to the scriptures. These aren’t new ideas either. They’ve just always been outside the organized church doctrinal slants. What happened to me is that after a childhood of various unsatisfying Protestant church experiences, I saw too much confusion and hypocrisy in the churches and blew them off in my mid teens. I still knew there was a God. I no longer knew how this Bible thing fit into the picture or what further to believe. I was burnt on the hollowness and muckiness of it all. But then a bit later, never having completely stopped praying or seeking, I began to come across some new perspectives that blew the sides of the boxes out. It was like a veil was taken off so many previously unsatisfying scriptures and they powerfully resonated with my spirit. I just knew this was truth at last, the kind of God I sensed had to be the God I had experienced. This set me alight again, and I was insatiable. I spent years reading and learning and seeking. I make no claim about myself except that I know God brought circumstances into my life which completely won my heart, faith, and affections back to Him. He is now a God I can rejoice in and call my Father with pride. The God I had known from organized Christianity was too badly contradictory and impotent for me to want anything more to do with. I make no judgement at all about your relationship with God. It doesn’t have to be our own interpretation or research. Some do that kind of work with their gifts and energies. Most of us do not. When we hear a thing the Spirit gives witness to and peace with His truth the more we learn to discern with that mind and not the natural mind. I think it’s good to keep in mind that the Holy Spirit does not immediately make everything clear or perfect in our minds. It is a lifelong process. We are all mixtures of truth and error, light and darkness. That’s okay. I’m wrong about stuff all the time, but I can see how God keeps improving my vision as I keep seeking Him and working on it, wrestling with it. Because I desire truth at any cost. I’ve made that bargain with God. Take anything away at any time if it is not fully truth and life to me. Even if it hurts like hell or leaves me reeling. And it has happened a couple times that way. One paradigm shift nearly destroyed me, but God knows our limits and will not let us go. I’d also say, that resolution is always possible and ideal to pursue in this life. Not between you and me, but between us and God and the spirit of revelation. God will resolve much for those who seek and ask fervently and, when necessary, patiently. Because I believe in a living God Who delights in making Himself known more and more to his growing children, when they are interested and care. And I experience Him working that way. I don’t believe in a static book given once for all to be the sum all of God and truth. That said, there is such depth and riches in that book alone, one could spend lifetimes ferreting it out. But I want especially to focus on my life here and now and know what God is doing here and now. quote:No, I’m saying it involves works and processes which began way back then, and continue to this day. They are really spiritual principles and promises of where it all leads. Until it’s all fulfilled, it’s an ongoing process, a few called out and chosen in this age, and many more to come as the dispensation of the Spirit increases. quote:I’m not sure women appeared much in OT prophecy. Can you think of any examples? In the Revelation, women are the collective of persons/soul(s) called out into union with Christ, one group faithful, one not. You can call this “churches” or just people called, but not all of whom are chosen. Babylon is not taken as bride (these souls are not married to Spirit), because she defiles herself with earthly lovers (soulish and carnal affiliations instead of surrender to the Spirit). Yet she thinks she is and poses as the true bride. quote:Well, I was stating it last time, but I can see that God frequently speaks on multiple levels of application, which is quite amazing in and of itself. Clever, clever Guy, our God. Those OT prophecies were timely about literal kings and nations, yet beautifully symbolic in use of names, numbers, and so forth to give a spiritual message that transcends time and space. Why else should we care about them? So, Israel and the law, while literals, are also helpful symbols for all of us to consider. I wouldn’t take away any promises given to literal Israel where they are applied, but I wouldn’t focus on the literal nation of Israel as any more special in focus today than any other nation since 70 A.D. Ichabod: the glory has departed. Jehovah divorced Israel and was freed from His contract with her for her unfaithfulness. They committed the “unpardonable sin” which was not to be forgiven them in this age (the ending age of law in which Jesus was speaking) nor in the age to come (this age of the churches, also winding down in all likelihood). No one in earth has suffered more, or been persecuted more in the last 2000 years than the Jews. They have paid a terrible price. And they too have a promised restoration, which began in, what was it, 1917? [quote]And I have a simple question, which can only accept a yes or no answer (hopefully I'll word it right so that's true!): Do you believe that all people, whether "christian" or not, dead or not, will enter what you understand to be the "Kingdom of Heaven?"[/quote]I can’t answer it quite the way you asked it...sorry. So let me prelude it a bit first. Jesus died for all, paid the debt for all sin, is given authority over all, and promises do what He wills, which is that all be saved. I don’t say they need to be “Christian” because it’s such a word loaded with history and religion and convolution, that it has no spiritual meaning to me. Salvation is not adopting a religious faith and rituals, but simply being redeemed from one’s disconnection from God, from a state of spiritual death back into union and life. So, through Christ, a human soul is reunited with our Father and brought ultimately into incorruptible life. Will this eventually, in some time or place, by some means of our able and fervent Christ happen to everyone who ever breathed, walked, talked, lived, or died? Yes. 1Cor. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1Cor. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 1Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Cor. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 1Cor. 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1Cor. 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1Cor. 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 1Cor. 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1Cor. 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. The promises in this passage alone are staggering. Scripture tells us the wages of sin is death. If there is no more death, then the wages of sin have been done away with, or rather, sin itself has been done away with. Death is a spirtual condition which results also in the physical condition of death. If all rule and power opposing Christ is put down, then even the wayward self-willed heart of man who since the fall in the garden has sought to rule his own affairs with his own judgement of good and evil cannot stand before the piercing light of the conquering Christ. Every knee will bow. What does God all in all mean, in the end? Near the end of the Revelation, death and hell are cast into the “lake of fire”. The following states in the end there will be no more death, and all things are made new. Re 21:4 he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away." 5 And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true." So death and hell are destroyed by the work of the lake of fire. No more death. No more hell. This invites where I want to go with what I have been alluding to since getting involved with this thread: “hell” and “eternity” in Scripture—what has been long taught by many, but not dominantly so for all church history, nor ever by all—versus what is consistent with scriptural symbology and actual translation of Greek and Hebrew. Suffice it to say, before getting into it, that it removes any seeming contradiction or impediment to Christ fulfilling His promises to have all men be saved and to fill all things in heaven and in earth with Himself and to wipe all tears from all eyes by the end. He truly is victorious. Death itself has an appointment with death. (This is the second death). [ Wednesday, November 02, 2005 18:53: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Wednesday, November 2 2005 18:47
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Ladies and gents, forgive the humble secularist for butting in, but I'm afraid you've wound up with a relatively impenetrable and unuseful argument. To wit: I am uncertain as to the basic value of a 'debate' entirely between different strains of Christian fundamentalist to begin with; Certainly the presumptions wandered into left field in the topic's nascent days (everything in the framework of main-line Christianity - this so-called 'god stuff' wouldn't even allow a Jew to have his say); One of the posters seems to be hell-bent on drowning the discussion, and won't stay put long enough for a meaningful dialogue to take place (bouncing from the nature of the Christ to numerology somehow); And furthermore, even accepting the logical presumptions at face value, the factual content of posts tends to be specious (I've seen pointed out two separate posters mangling fact - one misinterpreting Scripture, another misrepresenting symbiology), which suggests a good portion of the population herein assembled is either without the knowledge to competently debate or willing to engage in charlatanry to prove a point. I don't want to labor my general point on methods of knowledge any further than it already has been, but to summarize, watching intuitivists attempt to engage in a logical debate is not particularly unlike watching kittens attempt to mate: either sickening or amusing, but not particularly enlightening. [ Wednesday, November 02, 2005 18:48: Message edited by: Belisarius ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |