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Originally written by The Creator:

The statement you are refering was intended to demonstrate that location does not change what you are. As to the ability to survive outside the womb... The dentist is as dependant on his enviroment for survival as is the foetus or an astronought (SP?).

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4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- 5 and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- 7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

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Originally written by Bad-Ass Mother Custer:

It's worthy of note that the Hebrew word used for 'day' was defined as more or less 'workday' - i.e. from the time someone starts working to the time someone stops. In the native culture this usually, but not always, conformed to sunrise and sunset, but it would not be seen as particularly strange for a man to describe a 'day' of 36 hours. It's not inconcievable that the 'days' of God would be millenia long, which is far more compatible with everything we know about the Earth than the idea that Genesis happened in one real week.

It saddens me to see otherwise reasonable people bend over backwards, ignore the sum of human progress, and treat plain and obvious fact as a deceptive, cruel thing for no greater purpose than to prove their parents weren't lying to them like they were about the other jolly old man who would reward them for being good. There are plenty of parts of the Bible which are vital to a good life, and plenty which are factually and morally bankrupt. Taking both as equally infallible reeks of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

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Originally written by Kelandon:

Given that e-mail has worked for eight years, I don't see a pressing need to change now, but I'm curious: where exactly would this happen? Spiderweb is certainly not going to do this.

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Originally written by ben2:

The Bible says that God created the universe in six days, but it doesn't define exactly a "day", and there is no linear time with God, so the periods of time referred to as "days" doesn't necessarily have to coincide with one rotation of the Earth.

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Originally written by Dolphin:

Spetner makes a comment in most of Max's turns using fairly bright blue type. As nice a color as it is it distracts for Max's comments. This makes this slightly difficult to read as Spetner speaks out of turn almost every time, clearly attempting to dominate the debate. Also Spetner chose not to elaborate on ware he feels the species originated.

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Originally written by Dolphin:

Ok perhaps my statement was unjust. I am very open to a logical explanation to creationism. Please show me some scientific references so I can do further research on this discussion. Maybe if I see the logic that supports creationism I will have an easier time understanding that a woman just popped out of a guy's rib to populate the species.

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Originally written by Schrodinger:

Thank you for the calm approach to the question. I know that both sides of E vs C tend to get very worked up in the issue.

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Originally written by Bad-Ass Mother Custer:

A second-trimester fetus is only 'life' in the vaguest, most mechanical sense; in all but a few isolated cases they are incapable of the rigors of survival even given extensive life support, they are literally devoid of any conscious experience, memory, or activity whatsoever[/QB]

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Originally written by Bad-Ass Mother Custer:

if there's a medical or economic necessity and all humane measures are taken, there oughtn't be a problem with it.

[/QB]

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Originally written by Kelandon:

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Originally written by Jewels of the Forest
Roughly 42% of all baby girls and 25% of all baby boys are aborted. - (Planned Parenthood)
...
50% of women who have abortions use it as their sole means of birth control (AG Institute)

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I feel reasonably confident that these two statistics are lies and don't actually come from the sources you cited.

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Originally written by wz. arsenic:

I don't believe a fetus in the first trimester can be considered a human being with the same right to well-being as, say, a 17-year old girl.

Personally, I think the woman's right to do with her own body as she chooses trumps the right of the unborn fetus every time.

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Originally written by Schrodinger:

My perception is that the majority of people think of science as either an encyclopedia report or as a potato sprouting leaves in a glass of water. It's an incomplete view of science. They aren't aware that there is an active discussion on many things in science- they perceive science as merely a book of facts grouped into laws.

Thus "problem" with creationism is that people have this elementary view of science, and then go hear a creationist (who usually has a scientific background, although almost never in fields directly related to evolution), and go away convinced that evolution and related fields are giant atheistic conspiracies. I've been called one of the carriers of the black-flag of atheism because of my research. Creationism is usually sound-bite based, anecdotal, and rarely provides the full context of many of its claims against evolution. It tells people what they want to hear.

Also, these people are rarely informed of the religious scientists who accept evolution as a fact- people like Glenn Morton and Keith Miller. They are told one side of the story, and don't have the correct perception of science to evaluate the quote mines, ambiguous experiments, misconceptions (especially about thermodynamics) and other questionable tactics used by some creationists.

I've had an individual try to argue with me that the second law of thermodynamics prohibits evolution. When I asked him for a mathematical description of what the second law states, he was unable to provide me with anything. He was stuck on entropy is disorder, but could not provide definitions of either one. He read something by a creationist, and didn't bother to do research by himself.

This is a double-edged sword, one which must be equally applied to science. Just because there's a press report on a scientific finding doesn't mean it's correct.

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Originally written by Thuryl:

To be perfectly honest, I don't see a huge difference between having a child and then killing it compared to never conceiving it at all. In both cases, the result is the same: no baby. I'm not sure how it's possible to argue that the former is wrong without arguing that the latter is wrong too.

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