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My God can beat up your God! in General
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OK, on unfounded statements. Mohammed did say he was God.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Ghosts of Stalin in General
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Interesting newsy note how the evils of yore come back to haunt us today. Apparently in the 30's Stalin tried to seed the Berents Sea with various species to make it more "productive". When the experiments failed he jailed the original scientists (good man there huh) and kept trying. This kept going after Stalin until in the 60's the Alaskan King Crab was established and is now ruing the natural fisheries by eating bait off long lines and tearing holes in nets. Trouble is, the crab fishermen don't want to see the end of their newly established livelihood.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Visions of the future. (was: It's my turn to spam.) in General
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Your second pic, shouldn't that read "Jeff Vogel is..."?

Congrats on a spammarific career and here's to many future http://www.cusd.claremont.edu/~mrosenbl/spamcrate.gif

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Alorael have finally get a Custom Title? in General
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quote:
you have ...good blackmailing material.

**hands rubbing** **nasty cackle**

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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UN to Send Troops to Darfur in General
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Canadians won't be sending troops. Canadians will stay in Afghanistan instead. Canadians Will support with $$. Canadians will cut famine relief to 1/4 years previous commitment.

Harper :mad:

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Alorael have finally get a Custom Title? in General
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quote:
But it will make them concentrate on trying to earn one, rather than asking for one.

Ah, legitimacy, takes half the pleasure out of accomplishing something. The grass is always greener when it isn't your own.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Alorael have finally get a Custom Title? in General
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quote:
Dikiyoba wonders what gives people their sense of entitlement to a title in the first place.

My motivation is avaricous lust. Same reason why I long for my neighbor's wife.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Was Russia's occupation of Eastern Europe after WW II justified? in General
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Russia argued that its occupation of eastern Europe after WW II was to prevent another European war from occuring on its home soil. After all, noone lost more than Russia in either world war. Acceptable position? better yet, a defensible position?

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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United 93 in General
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Slarty, don't bow out yet. Actually this is slightly different.

What is your opinion of first strike or pre-emptive attacks? Militarily are these offensive means to accomplish a defensive purpose?

Here is another one. Russia argued that its occupation of eastern Europe after WW II was to prevent another European war from occuring on its home soil. After all, noone lost more than Russia in either world war. Acceptable position? better yet, a defensible position?

Should we make these new topics in their own right and open up the floor to those that have long since quit reading our batterings of each other?

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00
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Slarty,

my reading of the material suggest I was trying to address your points and you were ignoring my rebuttals! There was no intended deception on my part (and I believe the same as you). I think things just got sidetracked as we interpreted each others posts.

My history argument in point form

- Constant and continuous muslim expansion through military means.
- Christian Byzantine being wiped out, Constantinople attacked twice.
- Early peace between muslims and christian pilgrims disrupted around 1000 AD, resulting in massacres of christians and destruction of christian holy places, the curch previously listed in 1009 being one of the most egregious examples because it was such a holy place
- a call from Byzantium for aid
- a catholic response by Pope Urban II providing religious motivation to defend Christendom
- a response from knights, to which the call was directed, and also peasants and others with pious intent
- a military campaign that resulted in the freeing of Jerusalem and establishment of crusader outposts.

Defensive war because (1)aiding the eastern christians (2) protection of pilgrims (3) protection of christian shrines.

Most certainly there were offensive campaigns conducted to acheive the above.

Campaigns 2 and 3 are significant in that they followed the above principals, campaign 4 because it went so horribly awry, further campaigns conducted over the next couple of hundred years not nearly so well supported and all disastrous.

Interesting to note that I read part of one book from an islam point of view (not very scholarly) that had issue with some of the above. Also, somewhere I came across a view that the Crusades from a muslim view were a minor irritant and the use of them as a motivator for things like 9/11 is a recent phenomenom. I cannot recall for the life of me where this is from but on one level it makes sense, after all the muslims won every crusade but the first.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00
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Slarty, for the third time look at the texts written by Riley Smith and by Madden. Ifthe last text your refer to is the one by Runciman, I have not used this as a basis for ony of my arguments.

With respect to defensive vs. offensive, I am characterizing the entire crusade as a defensive war (defense of Byzantium, the pilgrims, holy places) not individual battles. This would be similar to Allied powers being in a defensive war against Axis expansion, but conducting many offensives of their own in WW II.

With respect to interpretation of history, the texts that I have read on the subject (and I admit they are not exhaustive and reflective primarily of modern scholarship) supports the contention that invasion and conquering of foreign lands was not a primary motivation of the vast majority of individuals, including key figures. In a nutshell, leaving many details out, at the time of the crusades the muslims were an ascending power, more advanced in technology and science than Europe and imposing their will on weaker populations. The establishment of European "colonies" were not primarily about economic advancement but about providing outposts against further muslim advances. Muslim advances are historical fact, establishing military outposts is a historical interpretation. The outposts were an economic drain on Europe and survived only with infusions from Europe. This is a historical fact based on records. Historical records also seem to show that these outposts remained primarily foreign (Madden's estimate was 90% of the population) with a ruling elite and a military force drawn from crusaders.

We will both agree that crusading kingdoms were established, I suspect we may disagree as to what this actually meant in practice.

Witah respect to the Popes statements, for me what was interesting was reading how these claims got repeated in sermons and in writings around that time, that the barrage of documents at that time propounded this motivation of a holy war. So, I guess my reading of catholicism on this issue points to this as their primary motivator. One thing to remember as well is that the Pope was not near as powerful and the papacy not near as united as it is today. I think the history of the crusades bears this out, the difficulty that the Pope had in trying to control or direct influence over crusaders.

[ Thursday, May 18, 2006 15:44: Message edited by: Mouthpiece ]

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Oh, this isn't central to anything, but you also wanted to know why I cited Palestine as the core of Christianity. Well, Jesus Christ and his followers started here, Egypt is where Christian Monasticism first arose and Asia Minor is where St. Paul first took Christianity outside of Palestine. Europe was the periphery. That it has importance to other religions as well doesn't change these facts.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Slarty,

you have made several unsubstantiated claims, go back and read your posts.

here are two that I have sought to rebut:

quote:
The First Crusade was indeed intended to reconquer lost territory, but that does not make it defensive. It involved attacking territories that were held by Muslims and were not attacking the West.
The first point, well I will not argue it again and the latter point is unsupported by a history of 400 years of constant, military expansion of the Islamic world.

quote:
The stated goal was not to protect people and ensure the safety of pilgrimages, as one might expect from a U.N. peacekeeping mission. This was an invasion, pure and simple.
I pointed you to recorded history of the Popes call to pilgrimage which explicitly stated that this was to protect people and not to take territory. If you read a text on this era, such as one of the two I cited, it will be littered with documentation that further supports this statement, i.e. this was not a statement taken out of context with the times but was made repeatedly time and time again.

Also, I provided you with two texts, both of which cite the territories taken from Christian lands AND provide documentation for their claim. Don't be lazy and demand I provide the original reference, go read the text and examine its documentation yourself.

IF you don't wish to read, here is a list of Christian countries conquered:
Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Palestine 630 AD
Egypt 650 AD
North Africa, Libya, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco 700 AD
Spain 780 AD
Southern France 790 AD
Sicily 850 AD
Southern Italy 860 AD
Turkish borders 900 AD
Armenia and Georgia 1050 AD
Central Turkey 1070 AD
This represents about 2/3 of the Christian population of that time (Europe was not as densly populated). Note also, contrary to your understanding of history, that significant parts of Europe were under muslim control.

I've read both books, and I accept their validity but my statements won't sway your opinion. However, I will say that your arguments have not presented sources, I have presented sources and, with respect, quoting a source which refers to much documentation on the subject, that has been rigorously tested by academics and accepted in the academic world as a text for University level courses gives weight to its arguments. If you reject, for instance, Riley-Smith's qualifications to comment on the Medeival period I will do my own facepalming.

To assist you in getting started, a third text you are likely familiar with, and which will lend some credence to your arguments (but I respectfully disagree with) is Runciman - he will support more of the economic arguments and largely ignores the theological arguments - but note that this is an older source and may not have access to as much of the documentation that supports Christian piety as the strongest motivation.

[ Thursday, May 18, 2006 12:31: Message edited by: Mouthpiece ]

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00
Alorael have finally get a Custom Title? in General
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Fine and dandy for Aussieavernum, but how do Iget a custom title? And I've tried Canned but prefer bottled.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Two sources used:

The Crusades (2d ed) by Jonathon Riley Smith of Oxford University and the previously mentioned work of Thomas Madden from St. Louis University. Both of which I will take over any of the unsubstantiated claims made by Slarty on this topic. Interesting to note that I have included a number of sources for my material, including two well respected historians in their field and yet no sources for any of the other material refuting my sources is given - must be none available. I also note that Dr. Smith is considered a leading researcher in this area and none of you (to my knowledge) are even medeival historians, nevermind crusade historians. I note that several of my sources appear on Wikipedia (Madden, Riley-Smith AND Dennis) from which you drew several statements. Perhaps you should refer to texts that are used at University level courses (Madden and Riley Smith) rather than the suspect history of Wikipedia.

Christian territory taken by Muslims included the western portion of Turkey, the Middle east, North Africa and Spain.

Its laughable that you all regurgitate popular arguments which are largely discounted by the leading modern research in this topic.

The other part I found funny as that I entered the topic not as an attack on statements you made but to correct the weak history of Rapix and Worst Man, sa well as Kel's statement
quote:
The Crusades, in theory, were a territorial grab, not an attempted genocide. They weren't trying to wipe out Jews and Muslims; they were just trying to get them out of the Holy Land.

It wasn't a war to wipe out Jews but it was a war to wipe out Muslims (from the Holy Land) after four centuries of depradations by Muslims. Yes, Christians attacked Muslims but Muslims did it first (for four hundred years prior to the crusades) and better (they won the crusades) and would end up being more concerned with Mongol invaders than Christians.

Read a couple of history texts then come back to me.

Kel, your "sources" are laughable as none are given. Slarty, Kel, point me to scholarly works that support your position and I will consider it, until then your arguments are untenable.

[ Thursday, May 18, 2006 11:03: Message edited by: Mouthpiece ]

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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quote:
Have you ever heard of propaganda? Politics? The fact that something is explained as being defensive doesn't mean it is.
The fact that something is explained as being offensive doesn't mean that it is. Interpretation of history to suit propaganda happens all too frequently and the crusades are a good example of that happening repeatedly (read any histiography of the events for proof)

quote:
And how the heck is a call to "destroy that vile race" defensive?

It's called reading in context. Don't isolate a statement from the context of the passage.

quote:

Regardless, you have not addressed my point about the fact that an invasion is an offense, period.
Repeatedly I have - but you ignore it. This wasn't about conquest of lands - even the conquest of Jerusalem wasn't about regaining territory per se - it's about protecting Christians and their institutions, of which Palestine was the center of this and was at the time the most densly Christianized part of the world. And I fail to see how you can state that an invasion is an offense, period then state that the US situation is different because the timelines are different. It seems to me the former statement refutes the latter. With respect to territorial grabs, the US could have stayed in Europe (they had the might), would that have changed the character of their defense? Or, the fact that original motivation and the sending of troops to Europe was different? Conquering lands was not part of the doctrine for the troops and only resulted after a successful campaign. From what I have read, the vast majority of crusaders returned to their homelands and only a very few set up kingdoms or were installed as rulers by the people they freed.

The 70% figure comes from two different texts (a round off of 2/3's actually) on medeival history.

The position I have taken is entirely defensible with reference to current historical interpretation of the events. However, the position you (and others) have taken is also a position that is accepted among historians. I don't think a single interpretation of the events will ever gain worldwide acceptance - nor do I know which current theory is more widely accepted but the two histiographies I have read seem to point to a movement among historians to the point of view that I espoused (above).

That being said, I will agree to disagree.

Edit: Another Historian's view found on the net:

quote:
In Western Europe the idea of a holy war developed later and for different reasons.
So much has been written about this that there is no need to enter into detail.3 First, we
must remember that what we call a crusade was, especially during the first century or
so, a pilgrimage, and those who took part in it were pilgrims; it was a holy journey (iter,
passagium), not a holy war. It was regarded primarily as defensive, that is, armed escorts
were to protect pilgrims on their way to the sacred shrines of Christendom and were to
recover or defend the holy sites in Palestine. This defensive character differentiated it
from jiha¯d, as did the fact that it did not advocate the forceful imposition of Christianity
upon others. In subsequent centuries, admittedly, and for some participants it did take
on a more belligerent character.
from http://www.doaks.org/Crusades/CR03.pdf

[ Thursday, May 18, 2006 08:03: Message edited by: Mouthpiece ]

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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You know, after re-reading some of the posts and doing a little brushing up on medieval history, we are probably in good stead to evaluate the first crusade as different from subsequent crusades, both from Popely motivation and from knightly motivation.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Slar, no original account of the Council of Clermont exists. However, here is a reliable account of Fulcher of Chartres

quote:
Then the pope said that in another part of the world Christianity was suffering from a state of affairs that was worse than the one just mentioned. He continued:

"Although, O sons of God, you have promised more firmly than ever to keep the peace among yourselves and to preserve the rights of the church, there remains still an important work for you to do. Freshly quickened by the divine correction, you must apply the strength of your righteousness to another matter which concerns you as well as God. For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as the most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George. They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire. If you permit them to continue thus for awhile with impurity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them. On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends. I say this to those who are present, it meant also for those who are absent. Moreover, Christ commands it.

"All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide."

Source:

Bongars, Gesta Dei per Francos, 1, pp. 382 f., trans in Oliver J. Thatcher, and Edgar Holmes McNeal, eds., A Source Book for Medieval History, (New York: Scribners, 1905), 513-17

Two things jump out to me. First, it is an explicit call to defend Christendom, second, there is no mention of reconquering lands, instead it is a call to "destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends".

Don't forget that the history of the Muslims up to this time was to have conquered by force about 70% of the Christian world and was at that time continuing to expand. The core of the Christian world was Palestine and the Holy Lands. This is about blunting a Muslim invasion.

There was no stated goal to conquer territory so calling this an invasion pure and simple is contrary to the explicit, stated call to arms issued by the Pope. Calling it an offense is twisting the words - it would be better to call it a mission of mercy, coming to the aid of Christian brethern.

Similar to the US freeing Europe and not "invading Europe" to reconquer lands won by the Axis powers. Even Wikipedia explicitly states that current historical research supports the primary motivation of the pilgrims (crusaders) was for spiritual and not earthly gains.

[ Thursday, May 18, 2006 04:59: Message edited by: Mouthpiece ]

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Direct communion with God.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Slar, to clarify (my point was not fully fleshed, I admit)

What was intended was that the Christian pilgrims had relatively safe and easy access to Jerusalem for much of the time after Jerusalem was conquered by invading Muslims. Around 1000 Christian pilgrims began to face serious harm and injury from Muslims and the destruction of the church in 1009 AD is one example of this. Now, sacred Christian places were being desecrated by Muslims and Christian pilgrims were facing danger and death. To protect the people and the institutions, to come to the aid of fellow Byzantine brethern and to free the Holy Land from foreign rule a crusade, the first crusade, was called by the Pope. This was a defensive war - to defend Christendom from the constant attacks and expansion of the Muslim world. The fact that some who answered the Popes call to arms had other agendas does not change the original motivation for the war.

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally written by Startucker:
The church was destroyed in 1009, while the First Crusade was launched 86 years later. I don't think 86 years qualifies as "recently."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is opinion, I need a verifiable source to confirm your wildcat theories.

Salmon, in rebuttal I point to the bible, where to God a thousand years is a day, then 86 years is a blink of an eye (and that qualifies as recent) ;)

[ Wednesday, May 17, 2006 10:09: Message edited by: Mouthpiece ]

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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quote:
In fact, the fact that I, someone without any qualifications whatsoever, can readily point out reasons for which our Jesuit friend's thesis is a crock probably suggests it isn't as sturdy as you might like.

We are looking for valid reasons, give something that qualifies.

quote:
I don't really believe in citing sources, because you can use them to prove just about anything.
And without sources you can say just about anything and argue it has validity (see above). Refereed sources means that others in the field have tested your material and given it validity - you are not a lone wolf nor (more importantly) is your material unsupportable.

I would, for one, rather be well read then well opinionated.

In further reading, Wiki cites a number of sources (including Madden's) in its write up on the Crusades. It also links to other articles includinga histiography that follows the histiography laid out by Madden and agrees that Madden's line of thought is a major modern interpretation of the historical evidence and not a flaky Jesuit/Catholic wishing of the evidence. It does, however, allow that other interpretations exist ( and I have not denied).

quote:
...to say nothing of referring to one of the largest invasions in human history as a 'defensive war'.

History records that the Christian Byzantine empire was under attack by teh Muslims and sent out an appeal for aid to the Pope, from which the first Crusade arose. That is a major support for the tenet of a defensive war. Freeing the Holy Lands from Muslim rule, traditional Christian lands, is another support. Although occupied for up to four hundred years, until recently pilgrims had easy access to the Christian shrines. In 1009 the Fatimid caliph of Cairo, al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, had the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem destroyed.

So yes, defensive war is quite supported by the evidence.

[ Wednesday, May 17, 2006 05:07: Message edited by: Mouthpiece ]

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Xylgham udwlnit skretcko!1!! in General
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not that I am complaining, oh hell yes, I AM COMPLAINING! its no fun being resurrected then left to cackle in the corner while others get the glory in the big battle scenes.

I agree that my demonstrated innefectiveness with a bow (I once shot a stun arrow into my foot and was frozen for days) limits my usefullness but dammit I am a glory hound and DEMAND I make an appearance (no mention of me in scenes 4 to 8, since the resurrection)

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Rentar's Keep Problem in Avernum 4
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After the third crystal was shattered and I got Rentar to consider fleeing I hit the check box and played for 45 minutes of mind boringly constantly repeating destruction with four characters at level 30/31 stats and still didin't destroy that stupid crystal. Rentar was at one point the whole freaking time.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Sentinel Pyrowyrms in Avernum 4
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For worms in tunnels, I haste, stand near where they appear, then pop in view, arrow, poop out of view. When they eventually appear to attack me I am right there with melee. Also, when close they don't firebomb.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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Randomizer:
quote:
...so all posts have equal weight for now.

Hoorah, I have value. Seriously, this demeans intelligent life as it exist on this site. Posts have exactly the value assigned to them as declared by Slarty and Slarty alone.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
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