Ghosts of Stalin

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Author	Topic: Ghosts of Stalin
moonear Infiltrator Member # 5410	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 06:12 Profile #0 Interesting newsy note how the evils of yore come back to haunt us today. Apparently in the 30's Stalin tried to seed the Berents Sea with various species to make it more "productive". When the experiments failed he jailed the original scientists (good man there huh) and kept trying. This kept going after Stalin until in the 60's the Alaskan King Crab was established and is now ruing the natural fisheries by eating bait off long lines and tearing holes in nets. Trouble is, the crab fishermen don't want to see the end of their newly established livelihood. -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00
Paraniod Rock Star Warrior Member # 7021	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 07:57 Profile #1 This sounds more like a fact than a topic. I for one don't care much for facts [I'm a Republican :D ]. -------------------- "My Mazaradi goes 185 They Took my License Now I don’t drive But I got me a limo And I sit in the back Lock all the doors In case I’m attacked.” Posts: 54 \| Registered: Wednesday, April 12 2006 07:00
Zeviz Nuke and Pave Member # 24	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 08:57 Profile Homepage #2 These threads remind me of the mother in the movie "Good Bye, Lenin!" (News flash: The Cold War has been over for 15 years. No extra points will be awarded for goals scored after everybody has left the stadium.) And even if the game was still going, introduction of non-native species was the least of the things Stalin did. Even if severe environmental damage is the only thing you care about, you have better examples, like [former]Aral Sea. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Najosz Thjsza Kjras Lifecrafter Member # 6388	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 09:16 Profile #3 quote: Originally written by Zeviz: These threads remind me of the mother in the movie "Good Bye, Lenin!" (News flash: The Cold War has been over for 15 years. No extra points will be awarded for goals scored after everybody has left the stadium.) And even if the game was still going, introduction of non-native species was the least of the things Stalin did. Even if severe environmental damage is the only thing you care about, you have better examples, like [former]Aral Sea. What I find most amusing is that, unless I am muddling my history here, all of this is from someone who fled the Soviet Union. So his having a grudge might be, how you say, more reasonable. Posts: 794 \| Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Yours Sincerely, The Boogyman. BANNED Member # 2064	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 09:33 Profile #4 The obvious solution is to become a crab fisherman. -------------------- I am an idiot. Posts: 775 \| Registered: Friday, October 11 2002 07:00
Zeviz Nuke and Pave Member # 24	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 09:37 Profile Homepage #5 quote: Originally written by The Worst Man Ever: ... What I find most amusing is that, unless I am muddling my history here, all of this is from someone who fled the Soviet Union. So his having a grudge might be, how you say, more reasonable. Your idea is correct, but since my parents weren't involved in dissident movement and we left the country 3 years after USSR's collapse, "fled the USSR" implies something more dramatic than what actually happened. (To me "fled USSR" implies being a dissident persecuted by KGB.) However, you are right that I have more personal reasons to dislike USSR, than an American kid who hasn't learned that the Cold War is over. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
moonear Infiltrator Member # 5410	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 12:50 Profile #6 For those that think the cold war is over, look to Russia now. Thier current president and government are bringing back Soviet era symbols and exerting anti-american swagger in the political arena. And if you view a free press as a symbol of democracy, Putin is strangling that too. Note: I wasn't actually intending this to start as a debate over Stalin, it was simply a newsy note that came up on an environmental program which traced the roots of the problem. Also note, not just bad environmentalism being practiced but teh jailing of scientists because they gave you an answer you didn't want? -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 \| Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 12:56 Profile Homepage #7 We're not quite at the point of jailing in America, but results by government research institutions are now regularly "altered" by the administration to fit with the agenda. —Alorael, who is also unimipressed by the imprisonment of scientists under Stalin. Considering how intellectuals fared under communism and how Stalin treated people in general, things could have been worse. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Najosz Thjsza Kjras Lifecrafter Member # 6388	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 13:01 Profile #8 quote: Originally written by Pez: For those that think the cold war is over, look to Russia now. Thier current president and government are bringing back Soviet era symbols and exerting anti-american swagger in the political arena. And if you view a free press as a symbol of democracy, Putin is strangling that too. sigh http://www.exile.ru/2006-May-19/the_cold_war_timeline.html Posts: 794 \| Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Grain of Salt Infiltrator Member # 6652	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 14:36 Profile #9 I'd say we're much more likely to have a cold war with Venezuela than Russia. -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 \| Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 15:44 Profile #10 The key thing about the Cold War was that everybody on Earth thought of it as a contest between approximate equals. That was what kept it Cold. Today there is plenty of antagonism towards the US, but no equal contest, so we can have lots of hot little wars instead of one big Cold War. Whatever improvement this represents is presumably lost on the people who get killed, and their families and friends. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 16:58 Profile Homepage #11 Pezestroika. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
VCH Shaper Member # 247	written Tuesday, May 23 2006 19:22 Profile Homepage #12 quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: The key thing about the Cold War was that everybody on Earth thought of it as a contest between approximate equals. That was what kept it Cold. Today there is plenty of antagonism towards the US, but no equal contest, so we can have lots of hot little wars instead of one big Cold War. Whatever improvement this represents is presumably lost on the people who get killed, and their families and friends. I believe Andorra is the United State's equal. Let they chili war commence. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 \| Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
GremlinJoe Shock Trooper Member # 1814	written Saturday, May 27 2006 01:28 Profile #13 There's more than that! The old soviet Union has left behind the horrible shadow of Communism itself. Look at Korea for crying out loud. They'll be back, mark my words. I've been saying it for over ten years, Stalinist Russia will return and it will take America down. That demon ain't dead yet. Oh yes, that empire will return. Damn communists. God Damn those BASTARDS. I HATE THEM! sorry, I'm old fashioned. I'm really sorry, I've seen horrible things done by communists. Good people brainwashed by their militaries. Suffering unimaginable in the mind. I can't tell you how horrible it is to see someone otherwise a good person you'd like be on the wrong side and die all because he was convinced he had no choice in battle. Lied into dieing for a place that never gave a damn about him. Well I just want to make it clear right here right now that I cared. I never want to see a good person go to their death out of slavery to a lie ever again! Some are still around, too confused to adjust to civilian life. Outside the state they served under. -------------------- The great light bulb converses its thoughts in a fashion most particular to its complicated nature. Neither twenty-one nor forsaken any longer, I now stand in freedom through Jesus Christ. Posts: 215 \| Registered: Friday, August 30 2002 07:00
Najosz Thjsza Kjras Lifecrafter Member # 6388	written Saturday, May 27 2006 02:11 Profile #14 quote: Originally written by GremlinJoe: There's more than that! The old soviet Union has left behind the horrible shadow of Communism itself. Yes: the Soviet Union invented communism. quote: Look at Korea for crying out loud. Yes: the entirety of Korea is communist. quote: They'll be back, mark my words. I've been saying it for over ten years, Stalinist Russia will return and it will take America down. That demon ain't dead yet. Oh yes, that empire will return. Yes: a defunct country that wasn't rich or powerful enough to defeat the US at a Mexican stand-off is going to come back after decades of stagnation and defeat it. quote: [b] Damn communists. God Damn those BASTARDS. I HATE THEM! [/b] Yes: you have every reason to categorically hate all adherents of an ideology you have never personally encountered. quote: sorry, I'm old fashioned. Yes: absurd, stupid, victim-miming histrionics are how they got things done in Eisenhower's day. quote: I'm really sorry, Yes: you are sorry for something you saw fit to post. quote: I've seen horrible things done by communists. Yes. quote: Good people brainwashed by their militaries. Yes: this is somehow related, and unique, to communism. quote: Suffering unimaginable in the mind. I can't tell you how horrible it is to see someone otherwise a good person you'd like be on the wrong side and die all because he was convinced he had no choice in battle. Yes: this, again, is related and unique to communism. quote: Lied into dieing for a place that never gave a damn about him. Yes: the concept of civic duty was completely alien to the Soviet Union and all other communist countries, wherein the state had no theoretical obligation to its citizens whatsoever. quote: Well I just want to make it clear right here right now that I cared.[/qb] Yes: you care about people you never met dying for something they believe in with all their hearts, and railing against that with all of yours demonstrates this swimmingly. quote: I never want to see a good person go to their death out of slavery to a lie ever again! Yes: you're anti-military. quote: Some are still around, too confused to adjust to civilian life. Yes: Soviet war veterans are completely incapable of rehabilitation. quote: Outside the state they served under. Yes: adjusting to post-communist life has been impossible for the Russian military. [ Saturday, May 27, 2006 02:12: Message edited by: The Worst Man Ever ] Posts: 794 \| Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
GremlinJoe Shock Trooper Member # 1814	written Saturday, May 27 2006 06:52 Profile #15 I was thinking of one Russian soldier in particular and many people who had problems with the government. You may not realize it but there's a lot of people who underwent horrible things in gulags because of anti-state politics or just for nothing. I have a hard time dealing with it sometimes, I've gone so many years dealing with these memories like a machine but I'm starting to lose my hard exterior. As far as I can tell few people can forever be "cool" with what goes on in those prisons. -------------------- The great light bulb converses its thoughts in a fashion most particular to its complicated nature. Neither twenty-one nor forsaken any longer, I now stand in freedom through Jesus Christ. Posts: 215 \| Registered: Friday, August 30 2002 07:00
Najosz Thjsza Kjras Lifecrafter Member # 6388	written Saturday, May 27 2006 08:50 Profile #16 What memories, precisely? Posts: 794 \| Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Saturday, May 27 2006 09:45 Profile Homepage #17 You can say that the Soviet Union was a disaster of a state without calling communism inherently evil. In fact, you can call most communist regime disasters, too. But that still doesn't make communism evil. [Edit: Disasters, yes. Unmitigated, no.] —Alorael, who doesn't blame Christianity for the Crusades or the Inquisition, Islam for fundamentalist terrorists, or democracy for Bush. [ Saturday, May 27, 2006 09:46: Message edited by: Equipoise ] Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Meeshka Shock Trooper Member # 6908	written Saturday, May 27 2006 09:54 Profile #18 The Worst Man, thank you. I think I'm a bit too impulsive when someone is stupidly insulting anyone without a simple bit of idea of what he is talking about. And I couldn't find a good answer without breaking the CoC here. Alo, :) Not mine phrase, but sounds nice: Tyrany with elements of democracy is the same thing as constipation with elements of diarrhoea. -------------------- 9 masks sing in a choir: Gnome Dwarf Slith Giant Troll Troglo Human Nephil Vahnatai "If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?" radix: +2 nicothodes: +1 salmon:+1 Posts: 203 \| Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00
GremlinJoe Shock Trooper Member # 1814	written Saturday, May 27 2006 10:58 Profile #19 I don't have any problem with communism as a concept. I just have strong tendancies to not associate the communism the world has known on a national level with true communism. I personally see them as two different things. And I didn't say anything was evil. Also keep in mind that when I say communists I mean the government. Not the people or the advocates for true communism. I must not be explaining myself again. By the way, a lot of my experiences with this touchy subject occured outside the Soviet Union itself. Just take it from me, something is going on over there. I see strings being pulled in odd ways. Not friendly looking. -------------------- The great light bulb converses its thoughts in a fashion most particular to its complicated nature. Neither twenty-one nor forsaken any longer, I now stand in freedom through Jesus Christ. Posts: 215 \| Registered: Friday, August 30 2002 07:00
Najosz Thjsza Kjras Lifecrafter Member # 6388	written Saturday, May 27 2006 11:13 Profile #20 quote: Originally written by The Worst Man Ever: What memories, precisely? Posts: 794 \| Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Saturday, May 27 2006 12:28 Profile #21 It's not easy to discredit a big ideology with a few historical examples. But Communism — at least if we mean Marxist-Leninism — used to boast that it ruled a third of the world, and that weight of history is now a heavy burden of evidence. It may not be enough to prove Communism is intrinsically bad, but it makes it reasonable to suppose that it might well be. A Communist can still argue otherwise, but a Communist who doesn't recognize that they have to make their case against apparently strong evidence is a fool. Having read a bit of Marx and Lenin in college, I have recently been impressed by Malia's argument in The Soviet Tragedy. He makes a detailed analysis of claims that, at any of several possible points, the Soviet system went off its good Leninist rails. He concludes that it was really those rails themselves that were the problem: ruthless coercion of many by few was there from the start, and it poisoned the good fruit for which it was supposed to have been committed. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
The Immortal BANNED Member # 4	written Saturday, May 27 2006 20:13 Profile Homepage #22 quote: Originally written by Student of Trinity: Having read a bit of Marx and Lenin in college, I have recently been impressed by Malia's argument in The Soviet Tragedy. He makes a detailed analysis of claims that, at any of several possible points, the Soviet system went off its good Leninist rails. He concludes that it was really those rails themselves that were the problem: ruthless coercion of many by few was there from the start, and it poisoned the good fruit for which it was supposed to have been committed. In other words, the failures of vanguard theory. Interesting fact- Fukuyama has gone on to call the neo-conservatives "leninists." -------------------- * Posts: 6936 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Robinator is a Beefcake Lifecrafter Member # 34	written Saturday, May 27 2006 21:10 Profile Homepage #23 Somehow it seems a little depressing that the Stalin's ghosts are obnoxious crabs. But the crab part does kinda show his personality pretty well. So now this seems appropriate: -------------------- Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. 'Spiderweb Software' anagrammmed: 'Word-bereft Awipe' Posts: 702 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00**
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Sunday, May 28 2006 00:45 Profile #24 quote: Originally written by Keto-san: In other words, the failures of vanguard theory. But this makes it sound like a minor problem for Communism. My rather cursory familiarity with Leninism is open to correction, but isn't the role of the Party as vanguard of the revolution pretty much the essential foundation? So wouldn't the failure of vanguard theory itself (as opposed to a few historical failures to implement it) be tantamount to the failure of Leninism? -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00