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Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
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Profile #310
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Sarcasmon:

With 99% of everything being perception, it would seem to make sense that his belief and experience and values be based on something that is nonsensical to the rest of us.
Gongratulations, you've bashed your head to the wall of the reason why humans do not understand each other! Two beings perceive God (or the truth or the whole...) differently, and the greater the distance between those beings (both mentally and physically), the smaller the chance that they will get over the wall. In the ideal situation, people meet each other on the top; however, Stillness seems to be nice and comfy on his side of the wall, and I don't think he's going to try and come to your side anytime soon. There certainly is quite a bit of irony in his PDN.

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
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Viewing Salmon's rant through my conception of God, and the scenery is beautiful. As a reminder, my God is formed of literally everything. He is the whole, the truth, yadda yadda. Borrow my pink glassess and see for yourself. Especially the "it (God) limits the creation to that of which it knows/imagines" -part becomes rather interesting.

[ Wednesday, July 25, 2007 09:38: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ]

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
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Legends of Divinity OOC in General
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Dead? Bah. MoS was sometimes silent for months, and still it somehow got finished. As long as someone occasionally reminds this exists, it will retain a chance of going somewhere.

BTW, I came up with another song for Esekijah. For the greater good of God!

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
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Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
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quote:
Originally written by Ezrah, Kitty of Wonder.:

7. The golden rule has been around for a VERY long time, in various forms of course, but its been there. Christ wasn't the first, but he wasn't a conman, or a rip-off artist; great minds think alike.
You know, one of my greatest spiritual revelations was the realization that people have had thoughts like mine in the past and continue to have them in the present, independent of me and my views yet still glaringly similar. After all, we all live in and are inspired by the same universe. I've never really understood what the heck other people mean with the word "divine", but I think being a part of the same whole, being able to hear and understand others, has something to do with it.

Divine inspiration indeed.

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
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Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
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quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

One could just as well say that self-preservation is an aspect of morality.
I personally think saying "morality is an aspect of self-preservation" would be more correct, but let's just leave it to that.

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Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
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To answer Thuryl's question, I think that "desire not to be murdered" gives birth to, or actually is, what we commonly call morality.

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Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
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quote:
Originally written by Subpar Prismatic Spray:

Good religion is, I think, an oxymoron.

I think good [insert *anything* here] is an oxymoron, as everything has at least two sides. Well, expect the moebius strip. Anyways, I don't think there is a way to profit one being without harming another. Every silver lining has a dark cloud in the middle etc.

Good and bad are always subjective. Our good is bound to be bad to someone or something else, somewhere in the universe.

[ Thursday, July 19, 2007 05:06: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ]

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Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Harry Potter in General
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I\m planning to read it, oh yes... but not anytime soon. The english version will likely be sold out for a while, and the finnish one will take some time to make. And when it appears, it\ll most likely be sold out too.

So, the likely solution is that I\m going to borrow that last book from the library, roughly year after this. As the book will have a waiting line of some 20 people at least...

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
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quote:
Originally written by Alorael:

That depends on your definition of religion. Of course atheism meets some criteria, but there are rather important differences between atheism and other religions.

No liturgy. No clergy. No revealed truth. No ritual. No non-negotiable beliefs. No higher authority. Atheism is a religion defined by absences, if you really want to call it a religion.

—Alorael, who was making another point entirely. Having his points missed is nothing new, though, and there's nothing to be accomplished by trying again.

I dunno whether this adds anything new to it, but I feel compelled to write it anyway:

Religion is an organization revolving around faith, which necessarily aren\t spiritual at all. Now, neither simple theism or atheism really need an organization around them: if someone just lacks faith or believes in inexistence of something (in my opinion, there\s a clear distinction), then s\he clearly does not belong to any religion at all. Same can be said about someone who simply believes that God of sorts exists, but doesn\t practice any excess mumbo jumbo.

On the other hand, both theism AND atheism can easily form into religion. On the theist side we have lots of examples, so I really don\t have to there. For the atheist side, I think communist China and Hitler\s Germany make passable examples. This actually has something to do with the topic, so don't come whining to me about some fancy forum debate theories.

First, China. I suppose everyone remembers the claim that religion is opium to people. Thus, in China, all sorts of religions have been outlawed, and the party has enforced this by executing well/known religious figures they find problematic. Although atheism isn\t the crux of communism (and they certainly can\t completely eradicate religion: for pities\ sake, they have 1 300 000 000 people there to control!), I think combined with the way communism works there it fills all requirements for religion.

Hitler is even more intresting. I read an article about him a month or so ago from a Historia magazine. Here\s the main issue summed up: although Hitler admired some rituals of the christian church, he despised it\s humane message. Thus, Hitler began to warp and control religion to better suit his goals. For example, he ordered several people to literally create a nazi bible, with all references to jews removed and some other things were also *slightly* adjusted. For example, commandments of Do not steal and Do not kill were replaced with Respect your Fuhrer and Keep the blood pure. This was just the first milestone, though: Hitler\s goal was a country completely without religion. Of course, the national sosialistic party with all its aryan BS filled that role quite nicely. As my father adequetly put, the SS had no God but a god none the less.

The point I\m trying to make> simple atheism can form to religion as easily as theism. And, when formed into a religion, atheism is potentially just as hazardous as any other ideology. This is not really a point that needs to be made here on spidweb, but I\ve run to multiple atheists that are (in my opinion) overtly hostile towards all religion and all faith. And once you start making sentiments like Religion is the source of all evil and Faith must be removed from mankind, you\re on your way towards an atheist mythology and atheist fundamentalism. Too far.

I apologize that my keyboard was not working correctly during the time I was writing this. It should be legible enough to understand, but still.

[ Wednesday, July 18, 2007 09:50: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ]

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Europa, God, and you, or Where it all fits. in General
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"Thank God she isn't pregnant!"

Catholic birth control! XP

[ Monday, July 16, 2007 09:40: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ]

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
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Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
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quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

What kind of evidence would you expect to see from millennia ago?

Bones, for example. You can tell awfull lot from simply bones; how well-fed the person was during his life, how old s/he was and whether s/he had any chronic diseases. I'm pretty certain we've dug up a pile of bones from the near-east, does anyone know how much skeletal research has been done from the material found there?

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3D graphic in General
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Oh God, please give me the power to remove this awfull topic from the face of earth! I promise to never sin again!

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Europa, God, and you, or Where it all fits. in General
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I find those sort of sentiments funny too, and this is further amplified by the fact that I am often the one most commonly using them. Nowadays, I feel they even add some unintended self-irony and sarcasm to my speech and writing. It's my own, big inside joke, and I'm growing quite fond of it.

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Legends of Divinity OOC in General
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Just for fun, I picked songs for two of the newer characters. So, here you go:

Esekijah - Crimson Goddess (or whatever)

I have to admit I ran out of ideas with her. So, I picked a couple of obvious search words and ran them through, and picked the one that sounded nicest. The video is quite nice, too.

Also, I figured this would also fit here.

Vertran (ya know, da new demon wid da fancy sword) - Tarot: Pyre of Gods

There is no question about it! No other song is better than this! Just look at it!

Also, I'd like to remind Lenar and prem that this calm after the grand battle is a good time to come back with your characters. Please?

[ Monday, July 16, 2007 07:26: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ]

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
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quote:
Originally written by Micawber:

Let me see if I've got this straight: y'all are arguing about historical trends in average life expectancy with someone whose beliefs include that Jonah survived inside the belly of a big fish, that Noah lived to the age of 950, and that Jesus came back from the dead after crucifixion?
I'm pretty certain all of those were originally written or told by separate people...

...but it must've been one heck of an idiot who put them in the same book. And then there people who take all those literally because they're in the same book...

[ Monday, July 16, 2007 06:47: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ]

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Europa, God, and you, or Where it all fits. in General
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quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Nah, I don't really have anything interesting to say about determinism. I've had enough quantum mechanics for today already. Sorry.)
Awww, I wanted to know...

Well, maybe tomorrow then? *ebil grin*

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Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Europa, God, and you, or Where it all fits. in General
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quote:
Originally written by Frolicking in Postaroni General:


—Alorael, who can believe in an interfering God without believing in obvious "act of God" miracles. But he's in the interesting quandary that he isn't sure whether physics can support non-determinism, and determinism is incompatible with an interfering God.

I think that the incompatibility of God with determinism depends on the nature of God, as well as the nature of determinism. In absolute determinism, where things can go only one way, I quess it is true unless God resides outside the boundaries of this pre-determined existence, which I find somewhat... well, artificial, in lack of better word. In the case of probabilistic determinism, where things can go a vast number of ways (although where every possibility can be accounted for and given a probability), a God, even an interfering one, can easily reside within the limits of universe. Of course, this also means that actions of God himself can be accounted for and given probabilities, which could explain a number of things.

You know, were we having this conversation in finnish, I would give you a two-page explanation of what I'm thinking. In english, I'm not sure whether even that small bit of text makes any sense. I hope you manage to get a grasp of what I mean.

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Europa, God, and you, or Where it all fits. in General
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I believe that everything in the world forms into a one, single entity, which I happen to call God for sheer convenience. I am not an agnostic in the sense that I don't (anymore) doubt the existence of my God; I just don't believe mankind can ever learn the exact magnitude and nature of this being.

Also, in practice there is no such thing as "supernatural"; if something happens, it is possible and there must be some sort of logic governing the event, even though that logic can be completely alien or incomprehensible to humans. If one can see the whole (ie. God), it possible for him to form and understand rules that span the whole existence. And once rules for everything have been found, the flaw of abstract thinking that has created the concept of "supernatural" will vanish and one will see the true nature of God.

I hope I managed to explain my views well enough for someone to understand. I have hard time finding words for this in finnish, so naturally the english version is even less sensible.

[ Thursday, July 12, 2007 06:56: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ]

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
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Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
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quote:
Originally written by Skomer:

As I understand it, atheism is having no belief in a being that is god. So being an atheist really depends on how you define god, or what you would consider a god to be.
There was a quote in my old religion textbook about atheism, contributed to one of the earlier well-known atheist (can't remember who, plus they took our books away at the end of the school :( ) It's hard to get the wording right, but the translation would be something like this: "Atheism is not denial of god, it is the unability to understand the whole concept. An atheist, when asked whether he believes in God, does not say 'no, I don't'; instead, he asks to define 'God', as he has no clue what such creature should be."

Because of this, I've never considered people who have a grudge against a certain definition of God or gods (judeochristian, hinduist etc.) true atheists. Heck, I consider myself to be more of an atheist than they are, and I almost see existence of God as a mathematical necessity!

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
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Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
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I read an article about world wars few months ago, from a magazine that is simple titled History. It defined a world war as something to the effect of "series of aggressive conflicts spreading over, and affecting, most of human population". By that definition, at least two or three wars *before* WW1 can be considered to have been world wars, and WW2 has never really ended. I'm quite happy with that explanation.

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Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Life on Europa in General
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quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Frozen Feet, you say life on Europa is highly likely. The reason you give is that if it's close enough to Earth it could sustain life. I follow that. How would the life get there though? Sustaining life and life beginning are two very different things. The chances of the later happening are extraordinarily low. You seem to hope there is life on Europa or elsewhere? Why? That's what I really want to know.

Firstly, we don't really know yet how life started here on Earth, thus I don't think we can judge how likely it is for life to form on other planets. To reliably calculate that, we will need much more knowledge of the origin of life here on Earth and the past conditions on Europa. Personally, I do not consider beginning of life to be a rare occurence at all, and believe that beginning of life is possible in any open system; it is only a matter of time. Scientifically speaking, it could be possible for organical compounds to form into complex structures near the aforementioned vents, or even in the soil (can't think of a better word here) of Europa. The last option is based on a theory that dealt with RNA-based life existing deep in Earth's crust: deep under ground, conditions are still relatively close to primordial Earth, and thus such organisms (that have elsewhere been replaced by more complex organisms) could still exist there. I don't think, at this point at least, that it too far-fetched to think that similar conditions could appear on Europa as well.

quote:
Originally written by Schrodinger:

quote:
Originally written by Frozen Feet:

I just read from one science-magazine that there could be hydrogen-peroxide-based life on Mars. They claimed that this theory explains why the Viking probe that landed on Mars (was it at 1976?) found signs of life in its first test, but all the signs of life disappeared in successive tests.
I know the fellow who proposed this. He's a bit of a "LOOK THERE'S LIFE!" type fellow, who proclaims life on Titan as well. His ideas are rich in speculation, poor in evidence. Oh well.

Actually, recent research (they shot a probe there just a while back. Remember?) shows that Titan has similar chemical mix-up to primordial Earth. Whether there's life there 8yet) is altogether a different question, but the science magazine I read the research from pondered, that once our sun turns into red giant Titan will heat up enough for it to gradually become (somewhat) like Earth and possibly develop life.

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Life on Europa in General
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quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

quote:
Originally written by Frozen Feet:

I consider it highly likely that Europa contains life.
Why?

The thought first crossed my mind when my father explained there was ice, and an ocean under the ice, in Europa. I didn't know a thing about volchanic vents back then, but simply the presence of water was enough to make me consider it. After that, I've seen several documents about those afore mentioned deep-sea beings, as well as read several articles about life in extreme conditions, such as bacteria living in extremely alcaline environments and sustaining themselves by dissolving iron. In my knowledge, the possible conditions on Europa are similar to these extremist examples, and if life manages to reside in such places down here on earth, why wouldn't it do so on Europa?

Now, a much more interesting question would have been why I have considered suns being alive. The train of thought started when me and my father were planting trees - we pondered whether life could form out of simply hydrogen and helium. Well, as the two cannot form complex molecules we figured that A) such a creature would likely depend on physical phenomena instead of chemical ones and B) that it would likely appear cloud-like and/or round, being held together only by gravity. Thinking about the metablolism of the creature, we considered fusion to be the most likely source of energy. It isn't that hard to draw lines from that, isn't it?

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Life on Europa in General
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I just read from one science-magazine that there could be hydrogen-peroxide-based life on Mars. They claimed that this theory explains why the Viking probe that landed on Mars (was it at 1976?) found signs of life in its first test, but all the signs of life disappeared in successive tests. I'm not the right person to explain the theory, but the central idea was that hydrogen-peroxide-based digestion is ideal for gathering moisture from the dry environment on Mars; however, such organisms are only suited to dealing with small amounts of water, and so the excess of it kills them. And the Viking's tests to find life were (if my memory serves me right) based around trying to grow local microbes in a host of water.

Then again, Viking was not very sensiteive probe. The article mentioned someone made a test with similar equipment in Arizona desert (not sure about this, my name memory sucks), and failed to find life, even though they knew there was some.

Personally, I consider it highly likely that Europa contains life. But then again, you're talking to a person who has seriously considered the idea of suns being alive...

EDIT: I don't think faith and religion will go anywhere untill something very drastic happens to the very nature of human life. If your faith is bothered by the idea of extraterrestrial life, well, it's your problem. Actually, I consider it highly likely that the finding of alien life will spark as many new religions it will destroy.

[ Tuesday, July 10, 2007 05:19: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ]

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I apologize for the partially unnecessary length of my post. I had a lot to catch up. Hopefully, Marras's version of the events is acceptable to everyone.

I wanted to add a poem or two to the text, but couldn't come up with anything suitable. So, I resorted to second best option: searched my music library for a suitable song! I even managed to find the song from Youtube!

So... the Crows fly black...

...and theres room for lyrics, too!

EDIT: Hey, what do ya know, I also got a suitable post number for this one! Up the irons!

[ Friday, July 06, 2007 09:33: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ]

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Legends of Divinity IC 2 in General
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For a long while, Marras just stood still, surveying what was happening around. He could feel two gods walking just beside him, but they left, barely noticing his presence. Marras, in turn, decided not to care about them, for the events that were taking place inside the city walls were of much greater importance.

For a moment he hesitated. He felt reluctant to leave the inn and Laura behind, almost afraid that they would go awau while he was gone. But then again, the strange goddess had found him once before, maybe she could do it again. And this time, I can find her too, Marras thought, remembering the dress he had woven for her.

So he left, picking up the last strings from the jackdaws and giving them new ones in return. He kept them separate, not to waste any time going through excess memories of the dead; he would have time to feed later, and if what he was sensing was correct, he would be fed well. This will be my night, Marras thought with glee, and considering what the happiness of a death god means to the living, it propably would've made other beings sick in the stomach. Their luck they didn't know...

So, Marras began walking through the outer slums of Kirkwood, occasionally getting lost or finding himself in a dead-end. It didn't matter, he was in no hurry. Other gods were moving, but still not in the same place. Not knowing where they were eventually going to gather made it a bit harder to find the right, but Marras had his ways to get past obstacles. He turned his hands into ropes, using them to climb over houses and fences, and eventually, over the city walls. A guard saw him, but didn't pay attention. What he saw him as came clear to Marras much later, and it made him laugh for days.

Hours passed before Marras finally stumbled upon the right place. He was somewhat baffled to see so many dead rabbits in the middle of a huge city, but he didn't let it bother him. Unravelling his arms he began gathering the souls of the dead animals, wating for the usual rush of memories to overcome him. But that did not occur; the little souls the cuddly animals had were almost mute, giving off only few, brief thoughts of the joy of eating and reproducing wildly. Hasty copies, Marras concluded, somewhat saddened by the waste of new souls. What was the point of calling souls to the world if one was not going to let them live and spin memories? Leaving rest of the rodents to the crow-kind, Marras continued on his path, eventually arriving on the open square around the main temple. Some action had already taken place, as bodies in the ground witnessed. The air was heavy with souls, some strangely hollow and some... well, Marras didn't know what was wrong with them, but he decided to wait for a while before picking them up. Old instincts that had been suppressed for almost a millenia were screaming for blood inside Marras. Demonic blood, to be exact. And there was starting be quite a lot of it...

Suddenly, a huge explosion illuminated the area. Roof of the great temple, which had already been struck full of holes, blew up. What little was left of it rained upon the battling demons and human replicas, killing lots of unaware living beings. Well, at least Marras thought of the demons as living beings; they had souls and life-force and all, even though the abilities and intrinsics they were displaying were rather noncustomary for biological life. For some reason, Marras found these little conflicts much more interesting than the gargantuan battle that was taking place between Geltor and the other gods. Little did he know that it was due to the age-old programming of his body, created by Tuoni and Sliross to better fight the demonkind...

Until this point, neither the demons or the replicas had paid attention to the lone, white phantasm walking around and surveying the wreckage they were making. A particularly nasty demon decided to correct this oversight, taking a form that was roughly half eagle and half bear, lancing itself towards the strange ragdoll. Its flight was stopped by a white fist smashing to its face, sending it flying back to the fray. Marras decided it was a good moment to step aside and let others do the work; he had never been a warrior, and even though he probably could have defeated most creatures around him by brute force alone, he didn't want to get his body more stained than it was already. Navigating his way through battling monster, he emitted a voiceless call, causing every avian of the corvidae family within one mile to rise on their wings. He and the crow-kind would have lots to do.

And so the battle raged on. Pale winter sun was now bathing the battlefield in its cold rays, mercilessly revealing the horrible damage the fight had done to the holy ground of Kirkwood. Even though Marras had grown accustomed to needless destruction, he had to admit the scene had some twisted beauty in it. The last few demons were putting up a ferocious fight against the dwindling creations. Marras didn't really understand why; what's the point in fighting when you've already lost the war. He was happily gathering souls from a bunch of magpies, suffering both the strange hollowness of artificial humans and the prolonged suffering of the demon-kind, when he felt an abnormally huge life-force moving towardsthe battlefield. Sliross, Marras deduced, looking up to sky. After all these years...

---

Isaac stared the old district of Joth in awe. I must be dreaming, he thought although he was already sure he was not. For that brief moment, all fear, all doubt and all selfhatred was wiped away from his mind, and for that moment he felt like he could just leave his past life behind and start anew... but his memories remained, and the power of the Lord of the Forsaken can only go so far. Driven by an old instinct of survival, Isaac finally managed to run away from the district, unconscious of the battle that was taking place behind him.

---

Powers were shifting, great events were in motion. Esekijah could sense it, standing on Troll's Tooth. Her nature prevented common farmers from seeing her, but unfortunately it also made the rock dissappear, causing seemingly limitless confusion amongst ordinary folk. As the morning sun was climbing higher to the sky, dozens of people gathered around the spot where their landmark had stood, wondering whether this was another sing of the endtimes. And there had been an excess of those sings lately...

Esekijah understood them well; even though she was in a high position, she was still relatively young for a god, her age spanning only two centuries. Thus, she had not lost his contact with humanity as badly as many others. She could still feel the same awe that mysterious clouds of crows, flying buildings and thundering flashes of light in the horizon caused in them. However, Esekijah's awe was know shadowed with disappointment, as the battle had already passed its climax.

"Seems I'm late", she muttered bitterly, and the mortals felt her voice as a sudden breeze blowing across the plains. However, she had long ago learned that there were no coincidences with gods; she had been drawn to Kirkwood for a reason, even if that reason was only known to God (1. Maybe it had something to do with the awakening of an elder god inside the city.

Closing the visor of her steel helm, modelled after a dragon's head, Esekijah braced herself. During her time as a war deity, she had gathered all possible knowledge of the eldest pantheon that she just could understand. Now, she had a chance to really meet one of her idols, and she would not let that oppurtunity go unused. Her red hair turned into flames and his cape formed into a pair of gargantuan wings as he created a horrifying hammer from the rock beneath her. A blink of an eye later she appeared in front of two beings she would later come to know as Minoko and Ryan, screeching inhumanely and bashing demons into unrecognizable goo...

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1) Considering the nature of Kalandha, it isn't very surprising that Esekijah was a highly religious woman during her human life. However, unlike many others, she did not believe Kalandhian gods to be the pinnacle of natural order. Instead, she believed, and still believes, that all beings in the cosmos form to one, single sentient entity. In a lack of better word, she has dubbed this being God.

As a funny fact, she was born in the Golden Republic.


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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00

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