Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa")
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 20 2007 18:13
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quote:What is the difference between your mind and your spirit? Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Friday, July 20 2007 18:51
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In another lifetime, no wait, it was much earlier in this one, I believed that conscience was this God-given thing to make us feel bad if we went against the absolute law of God's morality. Then I was introduced to something Paul wrote calling for the need to be purged of an evil conscience. So, even the Bible states that the conscience is malleable and can be evilly aligned. Subsequent to needing the Bible to validate or define a thing, it became very evident all about me that it is the easiest thing in the world to shape a conscience to whatever code you desire. Simply raise a child and drum into it whatever culture, religion, and belief system you want with correlating laws and morals, and it will largely adopt them, even on a level well below its conscious awareness. So much for the conscience regulating God's absolute truth hardwired into us. That said, I believe in absolute truths and values in this universe, and many can be found in some form in the Bible, but also in nearly any other religion. They are bigger than any one religion or view or concept of God. The degree to which we live in harmony with them is the degree to which we flourish, but our conscience can be skewed any which way. Christians develop a Christian conscience, and it is mighty difficult to jar them loose from it. We seem to have a desperate need for absolutes and security in knowledge of how things are, how God is, what our duties are. Little children benefit from this kind of structure. Adults who grow up may find that their thinking expands far beyond those simplistic and naive structures, and that there is so much unknown, unknowable, and continually evolving. Like who and what God is and how much we can possibly expect to really know about the real depths of the spiritual realities of things. We take comfort in what we are sure we know. I equate the Old Testament to being a small child spiritually. The rules are black and white. All is based on punishment and reward, if/then rules. The law is external and harsh. The focus in on discipline, obedience, bounds. Dad is often a scary dude, because when he gets angry, bad things happen. I equate the New Testament with how human beings take it up a notch as they have grown up a bit more spiritually, perhaps the years leading up to and maybe into adolescence. Things are more complex, subtle, and sophisticated. We now have an inner law based on Love and scrap all the childish treatment of control of the old law. Spirituality becomes more inner and abstract. God becomes more complex, and more compassionate...though many Christians still need their Jesus, the nice guy, to be intermediary between them and Scary Dad who is not nearly as nice or trustworthy, if we were honest about it. Christianity has lost its clout and is dissolving and morphing. Christians cry in alarm at the shifts in the world and their perception of morality, always wishing to cling to the simple joys of childhood where Daddy takes care of everything and has all the answers for them. What they fail to realize is that they are supposed to grow up and become a father of their own, with the freedoms and responsibilities and authority that come with it. Humankind continues to grow and explore spiritually. Christianity is determined to stay in the crypt with the bones of men who have been dead 2000+ years. Those who set up camp and fail to keep moving up the mountain atrophy and wither ultiamtely. Why look back when there is so much ahead? ... I grew up with the fallacious perception that America (we called it "The World") was once more moral and better and that everything was by sure degrees going to hell in a handbasket. Of course, the sad belief that the Bible predicts this and an ever imminent, never-occuring end of the world/return of Christ has everything to do with shaping this perception. If you look at history from anything but Christian sources, you can see that nothing is so simple and that people have been people at every time and place we have knowledge of. The church largely (but unspokenly) condoned prostitution in Europe in medieval periods as a necessary evil. America was flagrantly "amoral" in various ways in the roaring 20s and 30's. There was a shift back to conservatism by the 50's, a glorified, yet wretched time when so many had no voice and no option to live a life other than the consumerist dream in the vice of American morality. I would hate hate hate to have been a woman stuck in a marriage at home with a mop in 50's America, with that vague nagging hollow sense of unfulfillment and marginalization. You weren't allowed to talk about many things or rock the boat or express dissatisfaction, so there was no recourse. Men were not permitted to be emotional, unless angry. Yeah, the world was always better in the past and we continue to get worse and worse every generation. We must be really really bad now, because we've been around quite a few generations. It's an illusion and delusion of simplistic and fictitious reasoning of how things were in any other time and place. Yet we humans continue to be remarkably complex, messy, irrepressible, and fascinating things, despite all this. ... Marriage is not what is sacred in my eyes. Committment, love, respect, and partnership are wonderful and powerful things. Where love rules, there is no need for laws and rules and headship of one over the other. Children need laws and the lawless need laws. Those who operate in mutual love are capable of hashing things out in partnership out of love. I don't need the recognition of either the state or the church with their rituals to create or devote myself to such relationship. And it is conceivable that in love, two people may decide it is the best things to do to shift and evolve in the nature of relationship. This need not be seen as failure. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3428
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written Friday, July 20 2007 20:05
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Synergy, very very nice. Unfortunately, most of the species isn't quite that evolved, many people are still psychologically unevolved; with the need of an omnipresent controller. Control isn't a bad thing at first, like you stated, in the infancy of conciousness, the social and religious structure bound people togeather and allowed them to overcome their instincts; and function as a unit, instead of a group of individualistic "someones" and this promoted prosperity and survival. But we've evolved; perhaps in most cases, not nearly enough to outgrow our current set of hardwired instincts, and its apparent. The transformation of religion from control to unity and love is symbolic of the founding cultures acceptance of the value of an individual's potential to benifit the whole though their individuality; the east hit this earlier for some reason, as did the far west, and quite a few of the more "barbaric" western cultures. This more than likely has something to do with the locking of fuedalism into mainland european cultures early at their onset. As for stillness' question: The mind, body, and soul are three seperate entities; at least in my opinion. The "soul" is what I would consider the "central driving concept" the rules that govern our conciousness; and while these most definitely manifest through the "mind" (a complex organic processing system with a set of fuzzy logic axioms all its own, as well as hardwired instincts, perceptory systems, and memory formation systems) the two aren't nessicarily one. Though, if you really wanted too, you could combine the two; it pretty much comes down to if or not you think the "spirit" can seperate from the body (which manifests and contains the mind in a similiarily ill defined and overlapping manner) and survive. [ Friday, July 20, 2007 20:08: Message edited by: Ezrah, Kitty of Wonder. ] -------------------- HIHI!!!! *hugs indescriminantly* take that, FEEL THE LOVE!!!! Posts: 47 | Registered: Wednesday, September 3 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 01:52
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The important thing is there are forerunners of thoughts, ideas, and experimentation which are creeping into awareness and consideration. Equally important is to see the bonds of the past dropping off. Ironically, it is much of the code of Christianity itself which has held us back, as I see it. Not because it is wrong, per se, but because we are to outgrow it. ... Body, soul, spirit...the Greeks believed in these three parts of being, I believe, while the Hebrews saw a duality of body/soul. The Hebrews also wrote in confusing terms which made it very hard to perceive where they believed spirit of God differed from spirit of man within a person. I see spirit as the energy which drives us from our deepest heart, and which would persist after the demise of the body, if we do persist, which I believe, and surely hope we do. Spirit I also have a sense is something universally interconnected in ways we probably scarcely comprehend at this point. There is a perhaps mistaken concept of an individual self we have, which may not really quite be the truth of it at all if we are connected on a spiritual level—and what I choose to do actually does affect all others in some sense. Does a cell in your body think it is its own individual life? Well, it is, but it also is a one of fifty trillion others which comprise your body and only do so by working in interconnected harmony. I suspect the larger scale of existence also follows this pattern ultimately. I see the universe to be one of fractals. The same patterns repeat on all levels. Soul I see as the vehicle of expression of the spirit's energies: mind, will, emotions...these are quite distinctive to each individual. Soul is malleable, and as some would distinguish it, corruptible, while spirit is a pure essence and incorruptible. Soul is more a reflection...or a refraction, while spirit is a source. Body is the physical vehicle of expression to house the spirit and enable the soul. So I imagine in my grossly inadequate conception, but I find it hard to settle for less or imagine much more at present. ... Random Bible Fact: There is no hell in the entire Old Testament. You'd think something as horrifically critical as avoiding spending all eternity burning in fire might be important to, I don't know, blaze from one end of every book to the other, but nope, you find no mention of hell in all that tedious law and prophecy and all that interesting, yet questionable history/mythology. In the Old Testament, in the Hebrew, you have only Sheol, the grave, where you go when you die, which meant merely a realm of unperception, unknowingness. Most interestingly, the hell of fire only appears in the New Testament, AFTER the Hebrews were the, um, involuntary guests of the Babylonians, then Persians for a number of generations before being released. The Babylonians and/or Persians did have concepts of fiery punishments in the afterlife. The Hebrews appear to have picked up a whole new concept for their religion just in time for the writing of the New Testament in a Romanized world. Oh wait, but God wrote the Bible and knows all truth from day one—all the law and morality and duty for us that is fit to print. I guess a little important detail like hell was not important for all peoples B.C. But God is just and wise. Everyone B.C. deserved to burn forever in a hell they didn't even know yet existed, nor had been warned how to avoid. God was too busy having the Hebrews slaughter Caananites, not eat pigs, and release all debt every 50 years, which supposedly, never once did Israel actually fulfill. This has been Random Bible Fact #666c. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 05:13
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quote:This is completely absurd logic considering 1) the fact that the Israelites had already had contact with other Mesopotamian civilizations, including the Babylonians, for many centuries 2) the number of elements in the Old Testament that were clearly borrowed, adapated from, or inspired by other Mesopotamian civilizations. The Flood and the creation of Adam and Eve are two major examples. 3) the fact that most Mesopotamian religions did not have concepts of fiery punishments in the afterlife. The Babylonian idea of life after death was much closer to your own description of Sheol. The Babylonian Captivity clearly had a big impact on Judaism, but not in the form of emulation. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4248
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 06:04
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quote:You know, one of my greatest spiritual revelations was the realization that people have had thoughts like mine in the past and continue to have them in the present, independent of me and my views yet still glaringly similar. After all, we all live in and are inspired by the same universe. I've never really understood what the heck other people mean with the word "divine", but I think being a part of the same whole, being able to hear and understand others, has something to do with it. Divine inspiration indeed. -------------------- I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience. Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 10:31
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Oh, please, Slarty, hyperbolic much? "Completely absurd logic..." Uh huh. That sounds more like a pesonal attack than a measured and rational statement. It still seems the only time you address me is when you hope to take me down a peg or put me in my place. Whatever, dude. Here is a small quote about Persian religion in the B.C. era I was referrring to: "Their religion told them the world was a struggle between good and evil. The good would go to heaven and the evil would go to hell. This idea of a final judgement day influenced the major religions of Judaism and Christianity." These are ideas absent from Old Testament Judaism, but subsequently became quite prevalent in New Testament Christianity, after the Jewish exile in Persia. Tell me that several generations living in another culture is not going to shift belief systems. According to the Bible, the Israelites continually whored after the idols and gods of their neighbors while they were living in their own land. And 2500 years later, we still have religions telling us the world is going to hell in a handbasket and a final judgement of all is coming, so rightly deserved by all these evil people afflicting the earth. Cyrus the Great would be proud. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 10:59
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Yes, the Persians did have those beliefs (or most of them did -- I've never been clear on the homogeneity of Persian religion -- but I digress). However, it's called the Babylonian Captivity for a reason. The Babylonians were the ones keeping the Jews there. The exile ended when the Persians came. I'm sure there was some cultural exchange, but I do think that attributing the development of Christian hellfire to that is absurd. Synergy, I'm sorry if it sounded like a personal attack, but it wasn't. I suppose it was a bit of an overzealous attack -- Mesopotamian religion is a special interest of mine and I hate seeing it misrepresented. But a personal attack would be an attack directed at you rather than at your contributions to the discussion. Saying "I disagree" or "you're wrong," however strongly, is not a personal attack; it's a necessary part of intelligent debate. I'm honestly not sure what I've done to try to "put you in your place." If you really feel that's how I act, perhaps you can PM me with the details; it isn't my intention to put anybody down (except possibly Vahnatai Creationists and those who start topics about Blades of Geneforge). At any rate let's not derail this topic with personal issues. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 12:55
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There was a period of Persian captivity following the Babylonian captivity. The prophet Daniel served under both Cyrus the Great, a Persian, and Darius, a Mede. And if we really want to dig into this in more detail, there are other and older influences related to hell, namely Egypt and Assyria. "In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom's hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389." The Northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrians in 722 B.C. and carried off into captivity, fate unverified. Many Hebrews remained in Persia after Cyrus the Persian permitted them to return to Jerusalem and to slowly rebuild the temple. 50,000 did return. Israel remained under the authority and influence of the Persians during this period, plenty of time and proximity for intermingling of Persian religious ideas. The point of my point is that a hell of punishment and torments, and fire in particular, does not appear in Judaic religion until the New Testament era, and its concept is long predated in a number of other ancient cultures, with which at times the Hebrews were closely intertwined. I made my point, because the typical Christian has little realization how absent the hell of their belief is from the majority of their Bible and history. And if we want to dig even deeper, even the hell of the New Testament is much other than Augustine, Dante and others ultimately rendered it to be. Mostly it too is Hades which is simply Greek for the same Hebrew Sheol/grave. ... I'm not drawing any particular conclusion, Slarty, but it is my observation that the only time you respond to things I write is when you seem particularly interested in making a point of how extremely absurd or illogical or inappropriate you think I am being. The degree of your criticalness toward me feels inordinate, and I'm not sure what that's about, but that is why I comment it appears more personal than contexual. I'm not saying the content of your attack was personal. It's not what you say, it's how you say it. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 13:46
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contextual is the proper spelling. :P -------------------- WWtNSD? Synergy - "I don't get it." Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 13:52
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quote:*scratches head* Maybe I'm missing something here, but my references all say Cyrus allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem the same year he defeated the Babylonians. (See for example here.) quote:Well, this is just wrong, or misleading at any rate. While a book from 1898 might be more or less accurate with regard to Hellenic material, the same can't be said for Mesopotamia, which was only beginning to be unearthed and studied at the end of that century. Anyway, Irkalla, Kurnugia, et al. were not places of torment any more than sheol was. As Wikipedia comments, "Irkalla is similar to sheol of the Hebrew Bible" ([URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irkalla]here[/URL). quote:Ah yes, I forgot about the Buddhist Captivity ;) quote:The first part of this sentence I agree with, but I don't see it in other ancient cultures. It seems to have been nearly universal to have some aspect of judgment, but nonetheless most people in most cultures got shuffled off to a big dreary underworld where they sat around naked and spent eternity being bored. Where's the hellfire? What torment do these other netherworlds have that sheol didn't? quote:Yes, that's the main reason I respond to anything here. Elsewhere I quite enjoy proposing or even supporting propositions, but here I find so many others put forth so many spurious ones that it's all I can do to swat down the worst of them. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 14:11
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quote:Jews reached India sometime after the Babylonian Captivity, probably as part of the resettlement plan when they were taken into Exile. So it's possible for some ideas from the region to reach Israel either that way or from trading between Arabia and India. Either way the concept of a torturous afterlife was definitely added on after the end of the Old Testament. Not even the Dead Sea Scrolls mention it. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 14:37
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So, if we are to agree with Stillness that people are getting worse and more amoral, by the third iteration of Monotheism, we should see yet another level of horrific punishment tacked on for good measure...though it is hard to imagine what could be worse than an eternity packed like bricks into a kiln. Unless it's enduring a lifetime of listening to Slarty's naggy nitpickery. : P So, permit me to be more precise, since we love picking at scabs on the baby in the bathwater here more than observing the bigger, and untainted point of the matter. The Egpytians were the most particular early civ which had a concept of fire as punishment in the afterlife. Various Mesopotamian cultures introduced concepts of punishment and judgement in the afterlife in general, judgement day, the god Yahweh, the creation account, the Noah story, as well as a hell inhabited by demons and tormentors. Those religions have all pretty much died out, but the rather unoriginal Hebrews and Christians managed to seize upon and tailor these "pagan" notions and integrate them into their monotheistic religion, which persists most bafflingly to this day complete with these ancient, fearful, superstitious kinds of beliefs. That would amaze me more if I hadn't grown up with that kind of thinking myself, and seeing how easily it happens when you are indoctrinated from day one. Credulity and inquisitiveness and skepticism get surrendered to blind faith and the need to believe in an ancient absolute truth that was established once and for all, rather than a need for ongoing exploration into the nature of all things, including God. I watch the world both mesmerized and horrified at the grand unfolding of all things, especially religion and the power it weilds. But it is a fascinating and highly incestuous progression. It continues to evolve, and an increasingly marginalized Christendom doesn't see the writing on the wall that its former glory is never to return. Ichabod. The best of it I expect to evolve into something more enlightened and relevant. -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 15:48
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quote:I'm trying to look this up now and I can't find anything. The closest I can find is Ammit, the monster who eats hearts that are heavier than a feather. I'm not convinced that this has anything to do with eternal damnation as opposed to just ceasing to exist. But regardless I can't find any "fire as punishment" -- can you point me in the right direction? quote:FAUST Who then art thou? MEPHISTOPHELES Part of that power which still Produceth good, whilst ever scheming ill. FAUST What hidden mystery in this riddle lies? MEPHISTOPHELES The spirit I, which evermore denies! And justly; for whate'er to light is brought Deserves again to be reduced to naught; Then better 'twere that naught should be. Thus all the elements which ye Destruction, Sin, or briefly, Evil, name, As my peculiar element I claim. FAUST Thou nam'st thyself a part, and yet a whole I see. MEPHISTOPHELES The modest truth I speak to thee. Though folly's microcosm, man, it seems, Himself to be a perfect whole esteems: Part of the part am I, which at the first was all, A part of darkness, which gave birth to light, Proud light, who now his mother would enthrall, Contesting space and ancient rank with night. Yet he succeedeth not, for struggle as he will, To forms material he adhereth still; From them he streameth, them he maketh fair, And still the progress of his beams they check; And so, I trust, when comes the final wreck, Light will, ere long, the doom of matter share. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 17:26
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Sure. The first hit I came up with using these four words in Google: "Egyptian fire afterlife religion" gave me: '"The Damned. Not all the dead, however, were allowed to share in the life-giving rays of the sun during the night. The lowest level of the underworld was reserved for the damned, those who had not successfully passed the final judgment. These unfortunate individuals become identified with the enemies of Osiris and Re, and are consigned to the Hetemit ("Place of Destruction"). There they suffer decapitation and dismemberment, including removal of the genitals and heart. They are suspended upside down, with their severed heads between their feet. Other scenes show them being boiled in cauldrons heated by fire-breathing snakes, or being incinerated directly by such serpents. They are doomed to spend eternity submerged in the "Lake of Fire." Perhaps worst of all, not only are their bodies subject to torture and destruction, but so are their bas. Scenes from the underworld depict the bas of the condemned dead, represented by the ba-bird hieroglyph, being boiled in cauldrons. Through these means these unfortunate Egyptians, whose crimes are not known, were consigned to oblivion." found here. I really am not a complete moron, you know. -S- Nothing new under the sun. The Egyptian "Lake of Fire" predates the Christian one by up to 2.5 millennia. ADDIT: Jehovah/YHWH of the Old Testament had this to say about committing one's children to fire: “And they built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin," (Jer. 32:35). The word "mind' here is actually more akin to "heart". The heart of YHWH found it an abomination to commit one's children to fire. Yet the more loving and merciful God of the New Testament is eventually said to have that plan exactly in store for uncounted billions of his own children. How do you spell "hopeless contradiction"? "I will punish you sorely if you do it, but I can do it for all eternity to my own kids and call it my justice." Who can serve such a brutal tyrant and torturer? I believe so many Christians have been so harsh and vindictive, and ultimately justified Inquisitions and bombing abortion clinics, because of what belief in a God of eternal torture does to your psyche deep down. We become like the God we believe in. Your God char-broils billions of his own babies. I guess you could too, or the psychological equivalent. Fire in scriptures is actually quite a fascinating study, and not remotely as negative as Christian doctrine became. God Himself is a consuming fire and to enter into God is to step into a flame and forever be set alight and transformed. Fire is a symbol of purification in scripture, something to destroy that which is corruptible and purify that which remains, like gold. I love the symbol of fire in a spiritual context. It is only in literal, ancient superstitious application that it becomes a device of punishment and horror. [ Saturday, July 21, 2007 18:15: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 19:15
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quote:I'm pretty sure this refers to sacrificing children as a offering to their god and not the afterlife. Burnt offering were common for sacrifices and sometimes they did them live. There were several periods where Jews strayed and adopted the gods and customs of their neighbors. After all Abraham was supposed to offer Isaac as a sacrifice (Islam says it was Ishmael). Christianity is full of contradictions in moral behavior. Get over it and go back to true monotheism, Judaism. The retreads are doomed to failure. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 19:15
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Stupid double post. Nothing here. Move along. [ Saturday, July 21, 2007 19:16: Message edited by: Randomizer ] Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
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written Saturday, July 21 2007 20:57
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I'm waiting for the third book in the Trilogy. That one's supposed to be the best yet. -S- If a thing is an abomination to God in life, why would it not be so in the afterlife? Why is it not okay for people to put their children in fire, but okay for God to do it, not even mercifully, temporarily unto death, but hideously with no end permitted? Can anyone fathom that untold scores of millions have believed in and embraced this utterly revulsing impossible vision of a loving Deity for two millennia? Staggering, that people could accept such blatant absurdity and wretchedness and call it love and justice. Do souls burn? Could flames torment them? Does anyone ever bother to ask obvious questions like this? I guess hell is a magical place where souls are embued with the bodies or the means to suffer the pains of fire, but not the damage and destruction of fire, so they can be sure to writhe in agony for all eternity. The God Who designed such a diabolical accommodation just for the torture of billions sure must be a most wise, wonderful, inventive Dude. Let us bow in reverence to this fiendishly imaginative torturemonger "whose mercy abideth forever" according to the Psalmist. Even the law God gave Moses said, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" in essence. The punishment of Christendom to follow far far, immeasurably far exceeds the crime, yet their own New Testament says from the mouth of Paul, "Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound." I guess eternal broiling is bountiful mercy indeed...if you are of the inclinations of Diocletian, Elizabeth Bathory, Vlad the Impaler, the Marquis de Sade, Joseph Stalin, or Joseph Mengele. Those fine folk were merciful though. Eventually you died from your torments. God mercifully keeps you alive forever so your punishment is sure to fit your gross crime of failing to kneel before such a malignant tyrant in the first place and embrace the warped doctrines and rituals maintained in His name. How many Christians can dance on the edge of a razor? -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
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written Sunday, July 22 2007 09:58
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I thought of this thread last night while in Powell's Bookstore. I saw a little magnet (one of the "funny" kind) which said "Jesus was a liberal Jew." It reminded me that most folks are okay with the idea that religion is refined through the ages, evolving to accept newly discovered truths. It is only when folks insist on preservation of the old that we run into problems. -------------------- WWtNSD? Synergy - "I don't get it." Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Sunday, July 22 2007 20:53
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As always Synergy, I agree with much of what you have to say, yet you miss the mark. The idea of hellfire as a place of unending suffering does not appear in the Bible in either Testament. In the very last book Hell itself is said to be destroyed by being thrown into the lake of fire, which “means the second death,” which means eternal destruction. I do see a progression of thought between the old and new, but it’s a continuum, which is why I don’t even separate the two into “testament” divisions. The nature of God, the nature of death, the nature of punishment for sin, etc., are unchanged. God is one. He is loving and forgiving, but his patience has limits. Death is unconscious nonexistence. Sin merits death, nothing more. Only resurrection can save and extend life. There’s no immortal soul to receive blessings or punishment. The soul dies. It’s always odd to me when people see these drastic changes and conflict between the OT and the new. If you want to, you can take certain OT references out of context and take them to imply that there’s some afterlife (e.g. Saul’s contact with “Samuel” through a spirit medium) just as well as some NT references (e.g. Jesus parable of the rich man and Lazarus). In truth though the idea that people don’t really die occurs in the very beginning of the Bible as a lie told by the Devil. Jesus referred to this incident 4000 years after when he told the Jewish religious leaders that they were liars like Satan. But, he and his apostles and disciples after him taught that death was a sleeplike state – just like the Hebrew prophets. The deviation of Christendom from this simple teaching occurs as you said, only later. -------- Randomizer, Christianity has no moral contradictions. It’s as monotheistic as Judaism before it. The Jews may have strayed and adopted other religions, but the scriptures don’t condone it. Listing Abraham’s instructions to sacrifice Isaac does not support that. It was foreshadowing and he fully expected Isaac to be returned alive to him. Most notably, God did not allow him to harm him at all once he showed he was fully obedient. And if you look at the account, please note the slaughtering knife. He was not going to be burned alive. quote:Seems contradictory. If you love your children and they love you - why the laws and headship? What is the basis for your theory of family and marriage? If it’s based on success, I’m all ears. All good and successful organizations need order and assigned roles. If people want to run their marriage as a two-headed one with both mates sharing equivalency as western morality dictates, I respect that. But if you’re relying on western values to determine your own, then be prepared to take the bitter with the sweet. The bitter is that vales are definitely declining. How you all don’t see that boggles the mind. I’m 31. When I was in school we didn’t have school shootings. If we did, they were very rare and not a major concern. All of a sudden, in my senior year of high school we need metal detectors. It was surreal. Now you won’t be shocked if you wake up and hear there was a school shooting. The standards of decency have declined also. The music we listened to as teenagers was so much more obscene than anything my parents have. A decade later and they’re playing that stuff on the radio. And it’s not just like it’s harmless music. The things we take in with our ears and eyes – the movies, internet, TV, music - influence us. If you can’t see it, ask your parents or your grandparents. And don’t just brush their response off as each generation thinking the next is worse. There may be some of that, but look at the hard facts and let them speak. My uncle showed me a video of a party his son had recently and he told me that if you wanted women to dance like these teenagers were when he was that age you’d have to pay. That’s not just his opinion or anecdote. I constantly hear about parents everywhere being shocked at what goes on at their kid’s parties. And please don’t get me wrong – we’ve always had these things with us. They’re just more common now. And it’s not just in the States – it’s happening all over. If you have access to eastern/middle-eastern foreigners in their 30+ or maybe even younger just ask them if their society is what it was a few decades ago in terms of morality. I speak to a lot and the answer is always “no.” Now, maybe you do see the changes, but simply think it’s not a big deal. Or maybe you think some social progress balances the decline out. I guess we’d have to agree to disagree. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Sunday, July 22 2007 21:12
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quote:You're still more likely to be struck by lightning than to die in a school shooting. Just because something gets into the news a lot doesn't mean it's a major problem in absolute terms. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Sunday, July 22 2007 21:18
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Because something doesn't kill you doesn't mean it's not symptomatic of bigger problems. Lightening has nothing to do with society. Increase in school shootings does. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Sunday, July 22 2007 21:22
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What bigger problems, pray tell, are they symptomatic of? If a few dozen murders in a population of 300 million are the worst symptom you'd come up with, I'd say society is doing pretty well for itself. [ Sunday, July 22, 2007 21:24: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Sunday, July 22 2007 21:44
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What have we been talking about for the past ten pages? Nothing? I'm talking about moral breakdown, not the deaths in and of themselves. If America had school shootings over the past hundred years like we do now I'd have no point. And it's not just the shootings themselves but the threat of them that looms over us now. Some decades ago threats were no big deal, now we have to take them seriously. That changes people. Do you think it doesn't? It's unfortunate when the bizzare becomes normal so that people no longer recognize it as such. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Sunday, July 22 2007 21:50
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quote:It doesn't have to change you if you don't want it to. We've always lived in a world where death could come at any moment, whether we like it or not; spending one's life in fear of it seems foolish and pointless to me. If when I go to university tomorrow that one-in-a-million chance comes to pass and I'm fatally shot, so be it. What good will worrying do when everywhere you go and everything you do is about equally risky? [ Sunday, July 22, 2007 21:53: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |