Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa")

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AuthorTopic: Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa")
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I think this discussion about the accuracy of time constraints will be resolved on December 21, 2012...

Lt. Sullust
Cogito Ergo Sum
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
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Originally written by Lenar:

Originally written by Stillness:

I know practically nothing about everything.

Yes, and this is unfortunately becoming more and more aparrent as your post count increases…you find a single prophesy of God's that is clearly unfilfilled or diregarded, and you can throw them all out, because that destroys God's claims of omniscience, and if you can't trust that, you can't trust anything.

And this is why I’m amazed that paragons of thought and reason such as you and Kelandon not only grace these boards with your brilliance but also condescend to interact with me.

I do agree. YHWH’s vision must be flawless or he is not. As it stands, nothing he has said has failed to occur unless it has yet to occur. Those that have yet to occur, the ones that deal with the final destruction of wickedness, are by far in the minority.

Originally written by Kelandon:

You make the argument, "Christianity has all sorts of fulfilled prophecies!" The response you get is, "Yeah, so does pretty much everything else. What makes Christianity's prophecies special?"
The detail and accuracy.

Originally written by Drew:

It is also entirely possible that facts were "massaged" after the fact to fit with prior important prophecies. For example, the whole tracing Jesus' linneage back to David thing. Or really, most of the birth story. But whatevs.
The Jews were meticulous record keepers, in particular with regard to genealogies.

1) All of Jesus early disciples were Jews who knew that the Christ had to be David’s offspring. The messiah’s lineage would be one of the foremost concerns in their minds as their scriptures start very early in identifying it (maybe Genesis 12 or at least by Genesis 22:18). No one would have followed a non-Davidic Christ.

2) Much of Jesus opposition’s argument is recorded in the gospels. According to them he was a blasphemer who claimed equality with God, he was a criminal that broke Jewish law, a seditionist who discouraged paying taxes, a sorcerer and more. Never was there a claim against his genealogy though, because it was undisputable.

Interestingly, the Jews in Jesus day were looking for the messiah because of prophecy. The prophet Daniel foretold the exact time of his arrival, so Jesus cousin, John the baptizer, was originally mistaken for the messiah and had to insist that he was not. There are, in fact, hundreds of messianic prophecies. If Jesus had not fulfilled these, the Christian congregation would have never had Jewish adherents.

Originally written by Thuryl:

That's kinda hard to do, since most prophecies tend not to come with time limits.
This would only be a problem if the vast majority of biblical prophecies weren’t already fulfilled. The fact is that they are. And there are quite a few important prophecies with a time element, be it duration (length of the Jewish exile in Babylon), start date (appearance of messiah), or general timing (Jesus alert to his followers that when they saw Jerusalem surrounded they should flee as it’s destruction was imminent).


All good things do not come after death in Christianity. A good relationship with God has immediate benefits.

It’s ironic that the very gift from God that makes us so much like him is the thing that can prevent us from recognizing his existence. We’re so adept at learning about our surroundings that the idea of certain things being unknowable present major hurdles for some. For the skeptic to grasp the significance of prophecy he has to understand not understanding. The one born blind can study electromagnetism and feel heat from the sun, but he’ll never know color. He shouldn’t claim it does not or cannot exist though.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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Originally written by Synergy:

Who ever said we were to make codifcation and religion
We weren’t. True religion comes from God. If God cares is it unreasonable to expect that he would teach us the best way to do things? If he doesn’t does he really care?

I would actually agree that America and western civilization in general is in a decline of sorts, and yet at the same time, we are shedding so much of the hangups and constrictures which we also need to let go of. You can run a police state and largely control behavior like Christianity attempted to with its moral terrorism, but this does not change a person from the inside out, or leave anyone free and happy.
Interestingly this is the exact opposite of what Christianity is. It is apolitical, at least as it concerns earthly government. It certainly has nothing to do with terrorism, moral or otherwise.

Everything good in America and civilization as a whole comes from whatever godliness it has. (Of course, “good” can be in the eye of the beholder as we have discussed). All the ideas that work well are in the Bible. Equality, liberty, fair and caring governance, helping those in need, environmental protection – all these are biblical ideas.

I believe in precisely what the Jesus guy was describing — an inner rule of love through connection with the Spirit of God our Source within the heart/soul, rather than externally by control through laws, religion, priesthood, ordinance.
I wonder how you’re using “religion.” Jesus did teach getting to know God and love, but his message also included laws and obedience. Interestingly, Jesus himself is a priest and king as it was prophesied he would be. His very message was “the good news of the kingdom” over which he’d be king. This kingdom would have an administration of lesser kings and priests and rule over the planet. So if you get away from priesthood, laws, ordinance and religion, you get away from Jesus. That is unless you simply remove the parts that you don’t like and make your own “Jesus.”

Being a father means you would never give your children up for dead, and would always be willing to see their return to your good graces. A wise, strong, purposeful father would not see obliterating a stubborn child for its childishness as a satisfactory or just resolution. What an impotent and malignant father that God is. What we would never celebrate or even permit fathers to do in the real world, we attribute most bafflingly to the Perfect Father.
You’re imagining an idealistic family setting with naughty children that just need a little direction, but life is not like that. Imagine a wayward son who has killed, raped, tortured, and terrorized his brothers and sisters. The father tries to help him leave his bad ways and gives him time, but his son won’t listen. The father is ever patient but comes home to find another son killed by the hands of the wayward one and the rest of the family at gunpoint being tormented. He knows that his son won’t listen and now his family is at risk. Would you find fault with him for killing his son? Would you think him a wise and good father if he simply let his family die because he’ll never give up on his son?

My example is extreme, but so is life. People abuse one another and have been doing so for thousands of years. God, as revealed in the Bible, has tolerated this situation for the sake of resolving certain issues and extending salvation to those who would like to be part of a united universal family. His love and mercy makes him patient, but it is these very same qualities that prevent him from tolerating badness indefinitely. And this is why neither you nor I can be a better father than he is. He epitomizes balance in love and justice– never too lenient, never too severe. The best we can do is try.

As always I agree with much of what you’re saying, except that you don’t make enough of a distinction between what the Bible teaches and what Christendom in general has done and taught in the past 1900+ years.

I ponder little matters such as the simple fact that no here alive knows what God really is, what happens after you die, or what God may or may not have done in the ancient past…The real challenge to life is finding and making your own meaning, rather than relying upon any other "authority." Spirituality is, and should be the sort of thing you base only upon your own experience and illumination, if you will, and not on the supposed revelation of any other…
Why should I trust your view of reality and follow your teachings about what life and spirituality “is, and should be” and the “simple fact that no here (sic) alive knows… what God may or may not have done.” Has God spoken to you? If he has not and you don’t accept revelations from others, how do you know anything about God? Why shouldn’t I believe that God started congregations of people set up in an organized fashion at various points throughout history and that this is the way he wants to be served? What makes your way better?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Off With Their Heads
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Originally written by Stillness:

And this is why I’m amazed that paragons of thought and reason such as you and Kelandon not only grace these boards with your brilliance but also condescend to interact with me.
It is now my turn to ask you what the hell your problem is with me. I didn't say this to you. Keep me out of it.

[ Saturday, August 04, 2007 18:29: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Law Bringer
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Originally written by Stillness:

1) All of Jesus early disciples were Jews who knew that the Christ had to be David’s offspring. The messiah’s lineage would be one of the foremost concerns in their minds as their scriptures start very early in identifying it (maybe Genesis 12 or at least by Genesis 22:18). No one would have followed a non-Davidic Christ.

I'll see if I can add a reference, but I have read that Jesus' nickname was the Roman because it was thought back then that he was a Roman bastard and not descended from David.

Jewish reference source.
Christian conspiracies reference.

[ Saturday, August 04, 2007 19:28: Message edited by: Randomizer ]
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
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Let's go through the prophecies that foresaw Jesus:

Isaiah's Suffering Servant: A man is opressed, suffers, and dies for our sins. Jesus can be seen as a fulfillment of this prophecy, but the only fact attested and accepted aside from Gospels is that Jesus was crucified. So were a lot of people. Any one of them could have become the focus of a religion claiming their death was punishment for our sins. No prediction here.

Isaiah 9: Prophetic nonsense-babble.

Zechariah 12: Also general. It could describe anyone dead of a stabbing, crucifiction, impalement, or even shooting. I'd consider it a subset of the Suffering Servant, which doesn't convince me.

Zechariah 13: Wounds in hands? That's more specific, but still anyone crucified. And Jesus wasn't crucified "in the house of [his] friends."

Daniel 9: The periods of time aren't accounted for, the flood isn't accounted for, and sacrifices weren't ended for half the week.

Hosea 11: Seems to apply to Moses as well as Jesus. Or better, really.

—Alorael, who could keep going. It's very clear that Jesus can be fitted into prophecies, but the problems of fulfilling general prophecies has already been noted. Just look into any Jewish Biblical scholarship for very cogent differing opinions.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
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Originally written by 0,1,1,3:

Just look into any Jewish Biblical scholarship for very cogent differing opinions.
You big tease. Deep down you know that no self respecting believer is going to seek other opinions.


Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
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I don't have a problem with you or anyone on these boards. I actually like you. You do make it clear that you view me as an imbecile though. That view is not uncommon here. Even if I am a little offended I don't flame in return because I appreciate some of the perspectives and they're worth hearing even if they come with a little jab. I do think I am owed the right to mock when you call me things like 'amazingly ignorant' though. Maybe the sarcasm helps me deal with the pain. :(

Seriously though, don't dish it out if you can't take it. Get some thicker skin or stay outta the kitchen.[/cliche abuse]


Random, Jesus is son of David through Mary, but only through Joseph as an adopted son. Your sites give evidence that the Jews don't think Jesus is God's son. No one's arguing against them believing that. The point is that everyone knew he was a descendant of David.

Alo, in ancient Hebrew and Christian thought the punishment for sin is death. All children of Adam are born sinners, so when they die it is what their works merit them.

[Psalm 49:7-9]No man can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for him-- the ransom for a life is costly, no payment is ever enough-- that he should live on forever and not see decay.

If you read anything about someone dying for other people’s sins that means they don’t have any themselves and it is messianic. Isaiah 53 (which I assume you’re alluding to) is clearly messianic and fulfilled in every way by Jesus.

Isaiah 9: Is absolutely messianic. It speaks about one who would sit on David’s throne forever.

Zechariah 12: I won’t argue this too much atm except to say that prophecies are sometimes not quite convicing alone, but take on deeper meaning when viewed together - the sum is more than the parts.

Zechariah 13: Why do you think this has anything to do with the messiah?

Daniel 9: Now this is a major one. The time period is accounted for as it lists the start as when the word goes forth to rebuild Jerusalem. This occurred in 455 BC. 69 “weeks” after is when “Messiah the leader” should appear. The Jews though in not only weeks of days but weeks of years because of the seven year cycling in their law. So, this 69 weeks of years would be 483 years. This brings us to 29 CE – exactly the time Jesus appeared.

“And the city and the holy place the people of a leader that is coming will bring to their ruin. And the end of it will be by the flood.

The leader that was coming did bring the city and the holy place to ruin when the Roman General Titus came like a ‘flood’ in 70 CE (see Daniel 11:10). Sacrifice was ended when Jesus dies “at the half of the week,” or 3-1/2 years after his ministry started, ending the need for animal sacrifice. This is a perfect example of a fulfilled biblical prophecy that is detailed, has a duration, and a start date.

Hosea 11: Moses is not called “God’s son,” Jesus is. The allusion is also to Israel. Again, it's when you piece all the prophecies together that the picture becomes clear.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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This thread is beginning to fray at the edges. If someone wishes to continue the discussion, they can start a new thread, but I'd rather close this while only page 2 is broken, rather than lose the entire thread.

Rest in peace.


[ Sunday, August 05, 2007 02:16: Message edited by: jg.faust ]

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