Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa")
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 04:08
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Christians certainly have been persecuted in the U.S., although not generally just for being Christian, typically for something more specific. I would assume that Stillness was just noting that it occurs and not trying to compare it with the rather different persecution of Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, or any number of other groups in this country. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 04:31
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Thuryl, I never know when you’re trolling, but this seems like an attempt. I’ll take the bait anyway. Define what you think fascism is and how what I described fits. What you have described so far is not what I said – that power gives one the right to do something. jg, Christians aren’t persecuted here since the 60’s and 70’s I think, but before then we absolutely were. It did make the news. The most we get now are attempts to stop building places of worship or laws to restrict preaching activity. We generally win out in these though. Incidentally, quite a few freedoms enjoyed in this country are due to legal battles over persecution of Christians and attempts to restrict us and force us to deviate from our faith. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 05:48
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quote:Can't immediately find it. It's in the archives somewhere in one of our huge morality/religion discussions. quote:And you've returned to the how-we-ought-to-feel justification, which assumes morality ("rightful" sovereign) in order to justify morality. [ Thursday, July 26, 2007 05:50: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 05:51
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quote:I don't always know when I'm trolling either. Does it matter? An idea is an idea, whether the person proposing it sincerely believes it or not. quote:"Everything exists because of his will" implies "he could will everything to not exist", does it not? In other words, you're saying that God's moral authority derives from his power to destroy the universe on a whim. If that's not fascist, I don't know what is. [ Thursday, July 26, 2007 05:55: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 06:38
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Perhaps the everything only makes sense to Stillness if it is explained in the manner he suggests? With 99% of everything being perception, it would seem to make sense that his belief and experience and values be based on something that is nonsensical to the rest of us. -------------------- WWtNSD? Synergy - "I don't get it." Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 06:53
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quote:This was mostly the result of pressure from one kind of Christianity on another kind of Christianity; if anything, you have the forces of secularism and pluralism to thank for your freedom to practice Christianity the way you choose. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 07:43
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quote:I’m not talking about how anyone feels. A creator has the right to determine how his how his creation is made. The creation has no say in this since they don’t exist before they’re created. The most a creation could do is question the wisdom in their design afterwards – that is if the creator was an ingenious one so as to endow the creation with the ability to wonder, imagine, and express this (which would probably belie any complaint). Once the creation is made the creator can then determine if it carries out its function properly. He is solely and supremely qualified to do this. Others, including the creation itself, may have opinions about whether or not the creation is doing what they think is good, but by definition only the creator has say as to reasons for creating. quote:No it does not. God’s name, Jehovah, means “he causes to become.” His destructive power is also highlighted, but is always balanced by love, justice, wisdom and a strong desire to have his stated purpose carried out in spite of any attempts to stop it. He has stated that certain things will be and that can’t now be undone. It can be awkward to grasp because we change our minds and God does not – at least not for the reasons that we do. The only way he’ll alter is based on appeal, but never because he didn’t think things through or didn’t know all the circumstances beforehand. Even an appeal can’t change his purpose, though. This goes back to everything about the deity being reality and truthful. So, no, he cannot destroy everything. His authority is based on creatorship. quote:No, much came from the government itself. You might argue that the government representatives were in fact representing or spurred on by a different kind of Christianity and in some cases you’d be right, but not all. One of the biggest landmark decisions was purely nationalistic and secular – that of forcing schoolchildren to salute the flag or pledge allegiance. There have also been decisions on conscientious objection, parental rights, and (if I’m not mistaken) patient rights, among scores of other first amendment rights. And I do appreciate the freedoms afforded by this country. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 07:46
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quote:Um. Have you any idea how ridiculous this sounds? -------------------- WWtNSD? Synergy - "I don't get it." Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 07:55
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No, please explain why you feel it's ridiculous for the creator to have a name describing him as creator, Jumpin' Sarcasmon. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 08:23
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Sigh. Humans assigned that name. It is unlikely that humans would have assigned a name that meant "destroyer of worlds," now isn't it? -------------------- WWtNSD? Synergy - "I don't get it." Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4248
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 08:28
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quote:Gongratulations, you've bashed your head to the wall of the reason why humans do not understand each other! Two beings perceive God (or the truth or the whole...) differently, and the greater the distance between those beings (both mentally and physically), the smaller the chance that they will get over the wall. In the ideal situation, people meet each other on the top; however, Stillness seems to be nice and comfy on his side of the wall, and I don't think he's going to try and come to your side anytime soon. There certainly is quite a bit of irony in his PDN. -------------------- I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience. Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 08:57
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quote:  THE CYLONS SAY DON'T BE SO SURE, STILLNESS. [ Thursday, July 26, 2007 08:57: Message edited by: Drew ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 09:07
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quote:Last I checked, the government (and for the sake of disambiguation, I'll assume we're talking about the Federal government) has pretty much held off on crafting laws that persecute Christianity, and when it has, it's been called on it very quickly by the courts, and rightfully so. As for your saluting the flag and pledging allegiance case, that was predominantly a speech clause case, not a religion case. I'm not sure where you're going with those other examples, but yeah - there is a pretty wide body of case law out there concerning individual rights as a matter of constitutional law. I'll bet you $100 though that none of them concern a matter wherein the government was persecuting Christians. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 11:01
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quote:This is the bit that I take issue with. You seem to be saying, "The creator made everything, so he has the right to determine what's right and what's wrong for everything." Why is this necessarily so? You seem to be assuming a moral principle (creating something gives one moral authority over it) in order to demonstrate that God's morality is the right one. This seems circular. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 11:05
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quote:Sure the ATF and FBI blew up a whole compound of David Koresh and his followers in Waco, Texas. Oh, you meant real Christians and not cults. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 11:23
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The folks in Waco were also violating a whole slew of other federal laws - it was the ATF that went after them initially. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 13:24
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quote:Exactly! God can decide whether or not we're doing as he wishes. It's his call whether the universe is working or not. That has nothing to do with good and evil. Going along with the creator's plan is good because it is the creator's plan? That's circular. Morality therefore has to be either external or entirely subjective. Calling God good because he says he's good and he would know is a really useless way of determining good. —Alorael, who likes to think of God as a kind of cosmic parent. Sure, he probably has ideas about what's good and what's not. His children probably disappoint him like all children disappoint their parents on occasion. But if nobody can surprise God with a superlative achievement beyond what he envisioned, life is a hollow joke based on varying degrees of failure. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 14:42
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Making practice of your religion illegal, loss of employment, expulsion from schools so that you have to set up your own, thousand of mob beatings, being driven out of town, counties, and states, castration and maiming, being tarred and feathered, kidnapped, shot, arrested without charge and without communication with family and lawyers is persecution any way you slice it. That happened in the United States of America last century to Christians because we would not do what we considered disrespectful to God. We eventually won in the Supreme Court, but not before these things happened. Some of it was the government, some of it was the citizenry following the lead of the government while the government did nothing. ------------- Going along with the creator is the way of everything in the universe. That is the way of eternity, harmony, tranquility and happiness. That is why it is good. Intellect gives the higher creatures the ability to abuse their gifts and buck against this way and make ways that are temporary, disorderly, violent, and unsettling. That is bad. It’s not circular. You can play semantics and call either way whatever you want, but it doesn’t change what each way is and what it merits for those who follow it. On the examples of xylons and parents: These don’t fit perfectly as analogies. Nothing really does, because God made everything from himself when there was nothing else. And other creator or parent is using and manipulating what is already here and at best only passes life along, but does not create it – not in the same sense that God does. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 15:04
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quote:No it's not. We've been over this. You are the only one here who believes this. The rest of us have found our experience to be quite contrary to what you said there. By the way, didn't you say you would stop calling yourself a Christian because it's confusing? The only one who calls Jehovah's Witnesses Christians is the Jehovah's Witnesses themselves. Call yourself by what you are, not by what someone else was long before you and that you hijacked for no particularly good reason. Also, if my religion involves walking down the street knocking over trash cans, is it persecution to tell me to stop? It's no less obnoxious than trespassing on private property to force your papers on people who are trying to live their lives in peace. I don't see why door-to-door missioning shouldn't be illegal if knocking over trash cans is. [ Thursday, July 26, 2007 15:09: Message edited by: The Almighty Do-er of Stuff ] -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 15:23
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Actually, now I'm confused. The persecution described by Stillness was visited upon the followers of Joe Smith when he was trying to set up shop. "Under the Banner of Heaven" does a fair job of describing the issues. Did the same happen to other religious sects? Is Stillness actually a member of the JW sect, or the Morman sect? I think the only reason that they are called Christians is for lack of a better term. Perhaps we should just return to the issue of Social Degradation, and having abandoned the hypothesis of "religious decay causes social decay," first explore social decay as a reality of false impression, and then move to religious decay as a reality or false impression. Yeah? -------------------- WWtNSD? Synergy - "I don't get it." Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 15:27
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Well, he calls his deity Jehovah and he linked to an article on a Jehovah's Witness website that talked about numbers of Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia as part of his argument. If I'm mistaken, sorry. It would still be better to use something more specific than "Christian" at any rate, that was the point. -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 15:37
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quote:Well, lots of Christians refer to God as Jehovah. He's also professed annihilationism, though, which is a doctrine that tends to be associated specifically with Jehovah's Witnesses. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 17:19
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No reason to get all enraged about that aspect of his faith. While it's understandable that you had a very bad experience with the JWs, insulting his faith as not actually being "Christian" is a bit below the belt. Let's keep it more or less civil here, folks! :) Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 18:33
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It's significantly qualitatively different. JWs believe the second coming of Christ has already occurred, for one. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. That argument was one of semantics, not of legitimacy. It's a perfectly legitimate religion. The only thing I have a real problem with is the door-to-door witnessing. It wasn't just that one guy, either, although that was the most egregious case. I might have less of a problem with it if it was more regulated. For instance, if you tell them never to send anyone to the house again, they should listen. They also shouldn't stand there for twenty minutes ringing the doorbell over and over. They should leave when you tell them to. Some do those. Most don't, in my experience. -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 18:55
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ARRGHH Quote != Edit *facepalm* [ Thursday, July 26, 2007 18:56: Message edited by: The Almighty Do-er of Stuff ] -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |