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Originally written by Dastal:

I still haven't heard you name one singleplayer RPG that is both good and completely non-linear.

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Even the Bioware games (Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Neverwinter Nights) are all linear, to some degree. At least you can't change sides in any of them.

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You seem to have defined linear as "there is a specific plot" and non-linear as "you can do whatever you like, whenever you like."

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I can think of no game that is truely non-linear in that sense.

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Originally written by Drakefyre:

All of TM's scenarios are pretentious.

SkeleTony - I don't care if the combat system allows you to chop off a guy's pinkie finger.

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That stuff isn't important to me.

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I only like combat that helps to advance the storyline - to me, everything else is waste of time and effort and is just boring.

We just have fundamental differences in the way we view things.

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Originally written by Ash Lael:

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Originally written by SkeleTony:

[b]Yes, but this is a chance event I am talking about. My party was not informed via scripted event that their ship was blown off course and when I awaoke I was in a dungeon with monsters blocking my escape or some such. Everything was rooted in MY decision-making and some unfortunate chance-events.

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Well, leaving the theory aside, I can't think of the last chance encounter I faced that was even slightly challenging. I dunno, maybe you get suprised and put into a tough situation by random wandering monsters, but it just doesn't happen to me.[/b]

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That, and chance encounters can't be tied into the storyline.

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So all you're doing is fighting a bunch of random interchangable enemies, which is just plain boring unless the engine is fresh and interesting.

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In the case of BoE, it certainly isn't.

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The Wreck of the Slug was simply the best example of a purely open-ended scenario I could think of off the top of my head. Even most large wander-fest type scenarios (like AC1 and AtG) have a linear central storyline.

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I think I'll take you up on your challenge there.

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An Apology is a good example of a masterfully crafted linear adventure. Name me a competently designed non-linear scenario and we'll see how they stack up. Farmhands Save the Day? Exile 1?

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This is largely due to the fact that scenario and game designers are seldom half the storytellers they think they are and computer games do not easily lend themselves to great writing anyway. Scenarios and CRPGS that try to masquerade as books come off like movies based on video games(i.e. Double Dragon and Mortal Kombat)...at best they are mediocre and yet pretentious storytelling affairs.
When I want masterful scribery, I will turn to Gene Wolfe(The Book of the New Sun) or Dostoyevsky.

When I want a fun computer game, I will NOT ask Gene Wolfe to write one for me.

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Okay, I'll challenge you there again. You consider An Apology a mediocre and yet pretentious storytelling affair?

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And that's not even touching on your bizarre idea that one form of entertainment must never resemble another form of entertainment.

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Originally written by Solomon Strokes:

I'll look into both of these.

EDIT: The Zauberer bug has been fixed. The Grenze one has not. Can you please tell me the path you took, including everything you did and everyone you talked to? Thanks!

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Originally written by Ash Lael:

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Originally written by SkeleTony:

How so? When I spend xx minutes exploring some ruin and gathering loot and then realize that high level baddies have come up behind me, blocking my escape route(forcing me to either defeat them somehow or reload from WAY before I entered said dungeon) then I feel I am in real danger!

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Notice that this happens when those bad guys have eliminated some of your options.

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Not saying that there's no place for open-endedness/non-linearity, of course. The two can work together smoothly in the one scenario.

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In Revenge, the dream world sequences are short, intense and linear. The real world is more or less open-ended. Falling Stars follows a "Linear down the centre, open-ended around the edges" motif. But purely one-on-one, I think an entirely linear scenario (like An Apology) beats an entirely open scenario (like Wreck of the Slug) by a long way.

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Originally written by Drakefyre:

This pirate game you're talking about doesn't seem very interesting to me - it's a world to explore. So what? Doing quests just to get stronger to do more quests just seems like an idiotic progression. What village is so troubled that it is beset upon by goblins, kobolds, and ogres?

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begintalknode 19;
state = 19;
nextstate = -1;
question = "Greetings Mahrmmrrh. What are you doing here?";
text1 = "_No no. Put more stress on the 'mmrr' and to answer your question I work for Master Tybonson. I am his servant or butler, whichever he needs more._";
text2 = "_I see that the nephil in your group has taught you the proper stress on nephilm names. But to answer your question, I work for Master Tybonson. I am his servant or butler whichever he needs more._";
code = if (species_in_party(2) == 0)
remove_string(2);
else
remove_string(1);
break;

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begintalknode 28;
state = -1;
nextstate = 29;
question = "Mayor";
text1 = "There are two people sitting round a large desk in this small room. The first is the captain of the troops in Sattle, the second is the mayor. She is in her forties and is currently looking exhausted.";
text2 = "_Mm... looks like we got visitors Bobby. Greetings and welcome to our village, although currently not as peaceful as it used to be._ She gestures at the maps and parchments on the desk.";
text3 = "They are maps of the surrounding areas. _I am mayor Worrington and this is captain Remington. What can we do for you?_";
text4 = "_Mm... looks like we got... By the gods! Bobby look!_ She points at a slith in your group. _What are you doing here? How did you get in here._ The captain speaks. _Calm down Evelyn. I'm sure this is not our enemy._";
text5 = "The mayor is still sitting around her desk.";
action = INTRO;
code = if (species_in_party(3) == 0)
remove_string(4);
else {
remove_string(2);
remove_string(3);
}

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Originally written by Ash Lael:

I think you're making the exact same mistake you're accusing POD of. In the hands of a good designer, you aren't going through the motions, you're doing things in just this way because the situation is so desperate that it's your only option. That's not undramatic by any means.

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With open-endedness, the player decides who he fights and when.

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He gets himself into the fight when he feels like it, and can get himself out whenever he likes. If you always have control, you're never in real danger.

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If you're never in real danger, where's the excitement? Having other characters (i.e. the bad guys) reducing the player's options is a tremendous dramatic device.

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Oh, and SkeleTONY, "screamingly loudly" is a fairly good way to describe unrelenting avalanches of condescending verbiage, especially when the arguments contained therein are really neither eloquent nor coherent enough to justify the condescension.

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Originally written by Toasted Marshmallows:

I think it is better that he did not create a world construction kit. To put it mildly, Runesword II is garbage compared to Blades of Avernum. The Runesword world is nowhere as good as Blades of Avernum.

Putting some limits on the game makes it more focused... I do not want a million classes and races. That would be stupid.

Your player characters may not be dwarves, elves, faeries and other such nonsense, but you can certainly have a scenario built in a tolkienesque world.

The characters can travel to any world imaginable through the various portals in Avernum. There is no reason you cannot design power armor, etc... You would just call it "Golem armor", or guns-- wand of steel bolts.

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Originally written by Lady Davida:

Over Jamie Foxx? I could have sworn he won. Are you pinning movies to their actors, or did Freeman himself get an award that Foxx himself was up for?

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Originally written by Solomon Strokes:



I took away Cloud of Blades for a very good reason- it does damage depending on the creature's HP total. So a boss like Shroud would take tremendous amounts of HP damage from the spell, making it unbalanced. I'm quite sure that taking the spell away was a wise choice on my behalf for the tactics of the scenario.

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I want tactical situations that aren't hingent on Divine Aid, War Blessing, Fireblast, etc. This is the BEST way for me to create more interesting situations for the party that I can see- if you can make combat more interesting without resorting to something similar, you are a better man than I am.

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Then tell me how to do it by any other means. Again, I do not do this because I cannot.

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But if you want elves, who's there to stop you?

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[b] Seems to me as if you think that scenarios become better when they adhere to the Avernum engine and plot- which I, of course, think is utter bollocks.

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[qb] As a designer, I'm offended; as a player, I feel mocked. "Clearly, the amount of suffering you have suffered under while fighting monotonous Vogel combat isn't enough; so designers, please do make combat less interesting for the sake of gaming clichés."[/b]

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So yeah- things are becoming less connected to Jeff's "pristine vision of BoA." So what? BoA, despite what you may think, is NOT A BoA FANFICTION.

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Even the designers that work in its universe will agree that your proposal is outrageous, and this has been reflected in BoX designing since 1997.

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Originally written by Dastal:

I'm gonna stop now. Just remember, the person who screams louder isn't always right. I think we will have to agree to disagree, and leave it at that. Certainly, I can't convince you, and I know you can't convnice me. I'm not willing to go rooting around for sources to agree with me or not. It's just not worth it. If it pleases you, then you can assume I'm agreeing with you. You've won.

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