Article - bjlhct2 On Scenario Design pt 1: Linearity

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Author	Topic: Article - bjlhct2 On Scenario Design pt 1: Linearity
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Thursday, March 3 2005 02:17 Profile Homepage #75 All of TM's scenarios are pretentious. SkeleTony - I don't care if the combat system allows you to chop off a guy's pinkie finger. That stuff isn't important to me. I only like combat that helps to advance the storyline - to me, everything else is waste of time and effort and is just boring. We just have fundamental differences in the way we view things. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Thursday, March 3 2005 06:14 Profile Homepage #76 DreamGuy, Bahs is the only scenario you've played all the way through, right? If so, I challenge you on A: how could Bahs have been made non-linear without destroying the story? [ Thursday, March 03, 2005 06:15: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Thursday, March 3 2005 06:51 Profile #77 quote: Originally written by Ash Lael: quote: Originally written by SkeleTony: [b]Yes, but this is a chance event I am talking about. My party was not informed via scripted event that their ship was blown off course and when I awaoke I was in a dungeon with monsters blocking my escape or some such. Everything was rooted in MY decision-making and some unfortunate chance-events. Well, leaving the theory aside, I can't think of the last chance encounter I faced that was even slightly challenging. I dunno, maybe you get suprised and put into a tough situation by random wandering monsters, but it just doesn't happen to me.[/b] I wasn't talking about BoE or BoA in the above example btw and if you have never been put into a tough situation due to a random encounter then you have not played many non-linear CRPGs. There is no way you could have. If a game allows for low level beginner parties to stumble on high level beasties because they decide to try exploring an area that, unbeknownst to them, is dangerous then the likelihood is there that you will run into trouble. Even in BoE I could design a random encounter that would give your beginner party problems(dragons anyone?). quote: That, and chance encounters can't be tied into the storyline. Why can't they? I would say just the opposite! A competent designer/author will most certainly try to tie in the wandering monsters and such to the main storyline. In any case this is simply an irreconcilable difference of opinion. You like hardcore linearity and can't stand divergences and I could really care less about the storyline for the most part. I play 'Roguelikes'(Nethack, Angband etc.) where there is no storyline and they are some of the funnest RPGs ever created! quote: So all you're doing is fighting a bunch of random interchangable enemies, which is just plain boring unless the engine is fresh and interesting. 1)Why must enemies be "interchangeable" if they are not scripted encounters? Are you seriously suggesting that the tactics you use against giant venomous spiders will be the same as those employed against a group of mages? 2)A boring or dumbed down engine can ruin a CRPG regardless of "storyline"(or lack thereof). quote: In the case of BoE, it certainly isn't. Again, I am not here to defend BoE adn I am not sure why BoE keeps getting thrown in my face? quote: The Wreck of the Slug was simply the best example of a purely open-ended scenario I could think of off the top of my head. Even most large wander-fest type scenarios (like AC1 and AtG) have a linear central storyline. I enjoy having a central storyline as much as the next guy(I just don't place quite the degree of importance as you do on this aspect). You have to play games other than BoE/BoA to get a feel of what good non-linear CRPGs are made of. quote: I think I'll take you up on your challenge there. Wasn't a challenge(how could it be???). It was my opinion offered in contrast to YOUR assertion of the contrary. We can both state our personal tastes as if they were objective facts but it will do us no good in this discussion. quote: An Apology is a good example of a masterfully crafted linear adventure. Name me a competently designed non-linear scenario and we'll see how they stack up. Farmhands Save the Day? Exile 1? 1)Again, BoE is not the be-all and end-all of CRPGs. I LOVE BoE, don't get me wrong. 2)How do you propose we measure one scenario against another to determine which is objectively the better scenario? It seems to me that this is an impossible challenge. What I consider to be 'good' and what I consider to be 'meh' is quite different from your standards. 3)I recognise the talent and achievement of An Apology and still I enjoy Farmhands and even The Wreck of the Slug more. quote: quote: This is largely due to the fact that scenario and game designers are seldom half the storytellers they think they are and computer games do not easily lend themselves to great writing anyway. Scenarios and CRPGS that try to masquerade as books come off like movies based on video games(i.e. Double Dragon and Mortal Kombat)...at best they are mediocre and yet pretentious storytelling affairs. When I want masterful scribery, I will turn to Gene Wolfe(The Book of the New Sun) or Dostoyevsky. When I want a fun computer game, I will NOT ask Gene Wolfe to write one for me. Okay, I'll challenge you there again. You consider An Apology a mediocre and yet pretentious storytelling affair? Compared to a well-written book like Shadow of the Torturer or Elric of Melnibone'? Yes in the sense that it is less an interactive game than it is a writer turning pages in a book for a reader sitting in front of a monitor. BoE is not supposed to be a 'Graphic Novel construction Kit' to allow aspiring writers to distribute their works to readers. They cannot compete with games because they are not 'gamey' enough and they cannot compete with actual books because if I want to read, there are WAYYY better written works out there. quote: And that's not even touching on your bizarre idea that one form of entertainment must never resemble another form of entertainment. Not my idea but you will need to replace the straw in that dummy you created pretty soon. ;) [ Thursday, March 03, 2005 06:53: Message edited by: SkeleTony ] -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Thursday, March 3 2005 07:00 Profile #78 quote: Originally written by Drakefyre: All of TM's scenarios are pretentious. SkeleTony - I don't care if the combat system allows you to chop off a guy's pinkie finger. I don't care about pinky fingers either. I do care about comabt being "fresh and interesting" though and to that concern I am more impressed by a game which allows you a wealth of tactical options such as targeting an enemy's 'soft spots', berserking/all-out-attacks, defensive posturing etc. over a system which consists of 'Attack', 'defend' and 'cast' as it's only options. quote: That stuff isn't important to me. And I never said it should be. quote: I only like combat that helps to advance the storyline - to me, everything else is waste of time and effort and is just boring. We just have fundamental differences in the way we view things. Agreed. We see things differently. Viva le difference! -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
Dastal Warrior Member # 3610	written Thursday, March 3 2005 14:08 Profile #79 I still haven't heard you name one singleplayer RPG that is both good and completely non-linear. Even the Bioware games (Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Neverwinter Nights) are all linear, to some degree. At least you can't change sides in any of them. You seem to have defined linear as "there is a specific plot" and non-linear as "you can do whatever you like, whenever you like." I can think of no game that is truely non-linear in that sense. Posts: 129 \| Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00
SkeleTony Shock Trooper Member # 156	written Thursday, March 3 2005 15:16 Profile #80 quote: Originally written by Dastal: I still haven't heard you name one singleplayer RPG that is both good and completely non-linear. "Good" is a subjective term and I don't even know what "completely non-linear" is!? I think you are reading too much into my posts. quote: Even the Bioware games (Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Neverwinter Nights) are all linear, to some degree. At least you can't change sides in any of them. 1)I think ALL CRPGs can be argued to be, to some extent, linear. Kind of depends on how you define the term. What we are debating here is the extent to which a game or scenario should be linear. 2)I believe that BG1 is pretty open ended(been a long time since I played it) and BG2(and BG1?), IIRC, allows you to "switch sides", in a manner of speaking( you can play as "evil" or "good") 3)Why did you invoke the Bioware/BG games to make whatever point you were making? quote: You seem to have defined linear as "there is a specific plot" and non-linear as "you can do whatever you like, whenever you like." No, but you guys keep trying to pin this one on me... :rolleyes: quote: I can think of no game that is truely non-linear in that sense. Neither can I. -------------------- "I am in a very peculiar business. I travel all over the world telling people what they should already know." - James Randi Posts: 219 \| Registered: Saturday, October 13 2001 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Thursday, March 3 2005 16:02 Profile Homepage #81 quote: Originally written by Dastal: I still haven't heard you name one singleplayer RPG that is both good and completely non-linear. Well, the Fallouts come pretty damn close, especially Fallout 1. Winning Fallout requires completing two tasks which can be done in either order; everything else is optional (as long as you're able to finish fast enough, you don't even have to complete the mission you were given at the start of the game). The down side of this is that if you do in fact play the game this way, you'll miss most of its content, both in terms of plot and gameplay. Of course, it isn't sanely possible to scoot straight through to the end on one's first playthrough anyway. As far as I'm concerned, giving the player plenty of options isn't a bad thing by any means. On the other hand, it's neither the only way nor the easiest way to make an enjoyable game. [ Thursday, March 03, 2005 16:05: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Ash Lael E Equals MC What!!!! Member # 5491	written Thursday, March 3 2005 19:37 Profile Homepage #82 It gets terribly difficult to keep track of what we are actually arguing here. I was under the impression that we were discussing scenario design, but it seems SkeleTony has been talking about RPG design in general (where I will freely admit that combat is a much greater asset, as players don't know the engine inside out - wheras in BoE, it would be entirely possible for a sufficiently experienced player to beat a dragon with a level 1 party, though it would be a long, boring fight). Similarily, I thought he was arguing that linearity was inferior to non-linearity, but it appears I was mistaken - he's merely saying that it's more his style. So, I'm not sure what to say, since I can't really see anything I disagree on. :P -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 \| Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Saturday, March 5 2005 15:02 Profile Homepage #83 Please continue the discussion in this thread. If you wish to reply to a post from this thread, please quote it. [ Saturday, March 05, 2005 15:03: Message edited by: Drakefyre ] -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00