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New Abortion Laws in General
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Member # 112
Profile #197
But if it was meaningless, we would never have understood the concept of meaning. Therefore the universe cannot be meaningless. Not merely 'unable to know if there is meaning'.

Would you like to start the new topic, or will I?

[ Sunday, March 27, 2005 14:13: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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New Abortion Laws in General
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Member # 112
Profile #194
I just happen to read Mere Christianity by C.S.Lewis. Fasinating book. In it, rather than using God to say that there is 'right and wrong' he uses the existance of 'right and wrong' as exidence of God.
He goes into it in some depth, but the gist of his argument is as follows.
"If the universe was meaningless (without right and wrong) we should never have discovered that it was so. Just as if there was no light in the universe and consequently no eyes, we should never have discovered it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning."

Edit: Ash Lael is right. We really ought to start another topic for this.

[ Sunday, March 27, 2005 14:06: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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New Abortion Laws in General
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"No abortion period." May seem radical today, but I'm sure "No slavery period." seemed radical too once.

Having abortion be legal for the sakes of those who would have them anyway is like making drugs legal in order to make it safer for those who would use them anyway.

I certainly have no problem with contraceptives (such as condoms, and pasectomies). However many so-called contraceptives are in fact abortives that kill the fetus early in the pregancy. But if they were the only abortions, it would still be a vast improvement.

A society where it didn't matter if abortion was legal or not because no-one would have one would be great, but if we are honest, it will never happen. People will always be looking for the quick way out.

Yes, it really is an ugly mess.

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New Abortion Laws in General
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Profile #104
quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:

Very well, I am able to respect how you feel. I understand that you feel an embryo to be a baby. I respect your religion and your right to defend what you claim to be life.

This being said there is little need for further debate. You are set in your way to “protect” what will be, and I and others seem to disagree with your “morals.” What can more come of this? You can convince me no more than I can convince you.

My belief of when life begins is based in science not religion. And it is my premise (that an embryo is a baby) not my morals that you disagree with. We are both against murder.

Could you explain to me why you said an embryo is not alive? It won't convince me, but I would like to understand your position more.

Thuryl your last post was a pleasure to read. I toally disagree with it, but you clearly stated you premises (i.e. the absence on absolute right and wrong, and that the world is overpopulated), and drew logical conclusions from them.
The only way this discussion can continue is if we were to debate those premises, but thats another couple of cans of worms.

Edit: Sorry for the double post. The way things have been, I thought someone else would have posted before I finished writting

[ Friday, March 25, 2005 20:33: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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New Abortion Laws in General
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Profile #103
quote:
Originally written by behind stingy cactus:

I have some questions (perhaps towards the anti-abortionists, or whoever wants to address them)

What will you do about the abortions that are done illegally? How will you stop them?

Basically, I don't think we will be able to, any more than we are able to completely stop any illegal activity.
Or do you mean how would we enforce such laws? I think taking away a doctor's licence to practice medicine if he is convicted of performing an illegal abortion and someone who was not a doctor woul have to face criminal charges. I think this would be a good method of enforcement. To punish the crime as it deserves however, would require a charge of murder, but I will take saving the innocent over punishing the guilty any day.

quote:
Originally written by behind stingy cactus:

How do you plan to prevent women from ever aborting? What are the plans going on to that effect, in whatever country you happen to live?[/QB]
You make it sound like there's some sort of conspiracy. My plan is to convince women (and men) that abortion is murder. I think far fewer would want abortions if they knew what they were doing.

quote:
Originally written by behind stingy cactus:

Fine if you want to forbid something, but shouldn't you be trying to eradicate the reason that is making these women abort? Why are they doing it?[/QB]
They do it because society pressures them to do it, and they don't see anything wrong with it. I would like to change society so that it is far more supportive of pregnant women, instead of saying, in effect "You're pregnant? Get rid of it. You don't want to be tied down. You want to be like us playboys, footloose and fancy free." This would include greater finacial support for families, and child care organisations.

It's a huge task, and may be beyond my reach, but I'm going to give it my best.

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New Abortion Laws in General
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Profile #99
quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:

Once again, you constantly compare a conscious, breathing, creature that feels fear and pain to an embryo that has no brain. Making the same point several times in several ways doesn't make it any different. It's still inaccurate.

You don't seem to understand the difference between what is and what will be. An embryo is not yet “alive”; it is in the process of becoming alive. It has never had a brain or consciousness. I don't like the idea of abortions after the first trimester unless medically necessary. You try to make it sound like we are supporting baby killing, and this is not the case. The anti-choice people like to use words like “baby”, call it what it is, an “embryo.”

You seem to have missed the point of the morphine argument. You don't have to be concious or experience fear or pain to be a person. You are a person by virtue of being a human being. An embryo with no brain is like a patient with a temporarily flat EEG.

What do you mean by alive? Biologically, it's a living organism the moment the egg and sperm form the first cell.

And I really do believe that an embryo IS a baby. That's why I'm against killing it. Why is that so hard to understand? Would you care to tell me what the difference is?

[ Friday, March 25, 2005 19:26: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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The Universe in General
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Just an interesting thought here. Matter can be converted into energy and vice versa (at least in theory). Now consider a ball that has been thrown. It has kinetic energy. Therefore the ball and its movement through the air are in fact the same kind of thing in different forms.

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A couple of pro-life articles in General
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Attacking healthy cells is a malfunction of the body. Is that what you claim is happening in the womb?

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New Abortion Laws in General
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Profile #94
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:



And, er, a society cannot simultaneously "longer value individual human worth" and also "worship at the feet of the idol Self".

Sure it can. It's when people don't value any individual other than themselves. This attitude is known as "Look out for number one."

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:


quote:
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Let me ask you a question. Are you against slavery? Do you believe that the issue of slavery is a moral position? Are laws legislating that particular moral position appropriate? What you've said is that it's appropriate to legislate certain moral issues and that you'd be in favor of that.
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I would not support laws banning slavery if I believed those laws would not significantly reduce the amount of slavery going on, and would make the treatment of existing slaves worse due to the necessity for secrecy and the fact that owning a well-treated slave would be punished just as badly as owning an ill-treated one.

It's much like the calls to ban child labour in developing countries. Nobody thinks it's actively good for children to be working 80-hour weeks, but banning child labour won't put a significant dent in the amount of child labour going along; instead, the "in for a penny, in for a pound" mentality will kick in, and children will just be made to work in even worse conditions.

quote:
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BTW in your example I would not be forcing the woman to act morally. If she were acting morally, she wouldn't be going to the back alley abortionist.

But maybe I missed your point. Maybe you meant that by making abortions illegal it will in fact make things worse, so I sould be satisfied with the status quo.
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I did say "attempting to force". My implication was that such an attempt was doomed to fail and would likely make things worse.

A central tenet of most ethical systems is that regardless of how good your intentions are, if the results of something you want to do are likely to be disastrous then you shouldn't do it. Look at the criteria for a just war, for example; one criterion is that there must be a reasonable prospect for victory.

Frankly, you might well do less overall harm by scaring women away from having abortions through bombing abortion clinics than if you actually succeeded in making abortion illegal.

quote:
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If abortion is illegal far fewer women will have abortions.
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Again, this is a point of disagreement.

Well, I sort of agree with you. If I thought that by making abortion illegal there would be more death and suffering, then yes I would stop advocating for abortion to become illegal. But I really don't think this is the case. After all, when slavery became illegal things improved for the blacks.
Maybe you would like to back up your position with something other than opinion. Say, the results of a poll that asked "If abortion were illegal, would you still have one?"

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets say that one day we developed the technology to grow humans in vats. Would that mean that embryos were human all of a sudden? That a foetus needs a special environment in which to live does not mean they are not a person. A person might have an accident and require the special environment of life support in a hospital in order to survive. Does that mean they aren't people anymore?
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Let's say that we developed the technology to grow an entire, fully-grown human being from any one of your cells: a cell from the lining of your stomach, a cell from a hair follicle, any cell at all. This isn't completely unfeasible in principle. Now, would this mean that every cell in your body is now a separate person?

I think this shows that attempts to define personhood in terms of potential future development are something of a dead end.

Indeed. But that wasn't what I was arguing. To clarify, I don't care about potential people (such as eggs and sperm), I only care about actual people. A skin cell is not capable of growing into a new human being by itself. It would have to have things done to it until it became a one-celled embryo. At that point it becomes a child and should be given the rights of one. In particular, the right to live.

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:


quote:
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Even in the case of rape (where there is no choice), the fact that the mother was brutally assaulted does not give her the right to then go and harm an innocent third party (i.e. the child).
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Why not? We accept this right in other areas of the law. Stolen property, for example, is confiscated and returned to its original owner, even if its current owner is completely innocent of any wrongdoing and relies on the stolen property for survival. In the case of pregnancy arising from rape, a woman's reproductive tract has been criminally misappropriated; the fact that an innocent party is now making use of it does not mean that its original owner has any less claim to it.

I'm going to describe a similar situation to what you just did. Suppose a woman is living in her house on a freezing night, when a man breaks in, beats her into submission, and ransacks the house, stealing or destroying anything valuable. She crawls to her room and there discovers a newborn baby. Ignoring social services for the sake of the argument, she has two choices. She can take care of it, sacrificing her own needs for the sake of the child, or she can throw it out on the street where it will freeze to death.
Legal? Maybe. Moral? No.

But we're getting sidtracted here. Rape and incest cases only make up 1% or less of all abortions, so it's a side issue.

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:


quote:
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We weren't using it as a standard for pesonhood, just individuality. It is an organism that has different DNA than any part of it's mother's body. Therefore it is an unique organism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unless, of course, the conceptus is a part of the mother's body, as some who support legal abortion argue. They have a fair point, too; its blood supply is continuous with its mother's, for example. And as I established in my previous post, unique DNA isn't enough for it to be considered separate from its mother's body.

Maybe you should read Overwhelming's second article in the article topic.
For my own answer, I would ask 'by what resoning would you say that it IS part of the woman?
The fact that it lives inside her? If you stick your tongue in someone else's mouth that doesn't make you part of them, or even just your tongue part of them.
The fact that it can't survive outside the womb? That is a measure of the quality of our medical technology, not the individuality of the child. Does the fact that if it is born premature and may have to be connected to a machine to survive make it simply a part of the machine?
The fact that it's blood supply is continuous with its mother's? Their blood never mingles, as is evidenced by the fact that they frequently have different blood types, and that the DNA is different. Check a biology textbook.
The fact that they are conectted physically? What about embryos formed in vitro? And even after it is born they are still connected. Does it only become an individual when the umbilical cord is cut?

A newly formed embryo qualifies as an individual organism, by any definition of organism you care to throw at it. It qualifies as a member of the human species by any definition of human species that you care to throw at it. It therefore qualifies as an individual human being. Does it qualify as a person? Would you care to tell me what the difference between a human being and a person is?

quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:


Creator, Overwhelming, The majority of what you are saying is not scientifically grounded. You speak of your own “morals.” Who determines what is right and wrong to do with one's own body?.

A lot of what I've been arguing with thuryl is about the science of it.
Society determines what is right and wrong to do with one's own body, legally that is. For example, there are certain drugs that you are forbidden to inject into your own body. There are places you are forbidden to take your body to (trespassing). It is generally illegal to walk around naked. And in the end, it's not what they do with their body that I'm really concerned about. It's what they do with their child's body.

quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:



Abortion is not equivalent to murder. An unconscious blob of cells feels no fear or pain.

So if you are drugged up on morphine and unable to feel fear or pain, then killing you is not equivalent to murder?

quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:


This is more a matter of controlling others than preserving life.

Saving lives is the ONLY thing I am concered about here. If it means implementing controls on others (e.g. preventing people from committing murder) so be it.

quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

quote:
Originally written by Overwhelming:

Abortion, rampant in America today, is the tragic consequence of a society that no longer values individual human worth, that worships at the feet of the idol Self, and that replaces the Word of God with social relativism. One-third of the children conceived in America this year will be murdered before they are born. And yet this brutal, widespread slaughter can be stopped if those of us who value human life and/or who worship God become informed, committed, and involved.
Quit frothing at the mouth. The rate of abortions in the US is about 22 per 1,000 live births, hardly one-third of all children conceived. Where are you getting this?

I don't worship your version of God, and I don't like your version of God. The majority of the rest of the world doesn't worship your version of God either. It seems as though your basis for making such determinations is incredibly limited. You can threaten me with the consequences for of what will happen in the hereafter, but you know what? I'm comfortable with that risk. Do you know why? Because I'm a good person, and I don't judge people on the basis of religious hearsay - I weigh individuals by their acts, and I put it in the perspective of my own choices. That you think you know what's right and seek to enforce your morals on others is the worst kind of hubris. Nevermind that you probably only selectively follow what you preach - come talk to me about the righteousness of your faith when you only ever have sex for the sake of procreation, not merely for pleasure.

Is your nation much better than mine? From what I've gathered, Portugal has the second highest rate of teen pregnancies in the EU. I'm sure all of them were planned.

What this is really about is that you would take away people's choice of religion. Thank God I have the freedom in my country to escape the tyranny of religious authoritarianism such as yours. I pray to God that my country will remain that way forever.

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html
This may help show that I'm not trying to impose my religion on you.

By your reasoning the north should not have imposed it's moral veiw on slavery on the south. Reasonable and intelligent people argued FOR slavery back in the day too. From what I hear the arguments then were much the same. "Keep your church off my plantation!"

[ Friday, March 25, 2005 18:05: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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A couple of pro-life articles in General
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quote:
Originally written by Khoth:

Firstly, my opinion on abortion:
Up to the brain starting to form, go ahead. Push it in and abort it again, if you want (thanks to Jeff for that suggestion)
After that, I'd be inclined to give the foetus the benefit of the doubt, and only do it if the mother's life is in danger.

So you would be against abortion from the very begining? Or did you not read overwhelming's first article?
BTW "only do it if the mother's life is in danger" Is the pro-life stance.

quote:
Originally written by Khoth:


Overwhelming's:
The first two articles, I thought "interesting, but what has it got to do with abortion, except that it's dragged in?"

It's the key issue! If it is a child, and not just "a blob of cells" or "part of the mother" surely you can't condone wantonly killing it.

quote:
Originally written by Khoth:


The third, I kind of agreed with the first bit about morals, but I think they're just wrong about the second (relevant) bit.

I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying you think the scientists are right about the morals, but wrong about the science?

quote:
Originally written by Khoth:


Ash Lael's:
I skimmed the first one, but it didn't really answer my views well.
The second, I didn't really manage to find an argument in it.

Since you don't seem to hold the most common 'pro-choice' veiw, I'm not surprised. And the second one was more to show that we're not just trying to impose our religious/concervative veiws on others.

Edit: Ash Lael is my brother. You apparently haven't heard about the Creator's mytosis.

[ Friday, March 25, 2005 15:56: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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A couple of pro-life articles in General
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Member # 112
Profile #5
A couple more good articles:

http://members.aol.com/chasklu/religion/private/abortatc.htm
Goes through a lot of the objections that pro-abortionists bring up.

http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html
aithiest/agnostic pro-life site, with several articles about being a liberal pro-lifer.

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New Abortion Laws in General
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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

[quote]Surely, acting morally is about what you, personally, can in fact do (including what you can in fact do to change the behaviour of others) rather than about what you want others to do. And therefore, isn't it fair to say that you have to take responsibility for all the reasonably foreseeable consequences of your own actions, including those that resulted from the enactment of a law you supported? To put it briefly, it may not always be moral to attempt to force others to act morally.
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:


I am of the opinion that it is not good policy to make a law banning something just because one disapproves of it. One should make a law banning something because that law will have a positive effect in the world. As I said before in this topic, the argument goes that it is a choice between an aborted fetus and a live woman or an aborted fetus and a dead woman.

Only 3% of abortions are done for the health of the mother. This is about the majority of abortions which are done for convenience.

from another article on that site:

Let me ask you a question. Are you against slavery? Do you believe that the issue of slavery is a moral position? Are laws legislating that particular moral position appropriate? What you've said is that it's appropriate to legislate certain moral issues and that you'd be in favor of that. The economic issue would actually be on the side of the South because slavery is what propped up the economic system of the South. When slaves were emancipated it gutted them of their economic force. Let's remove the economic argument.
Based solely on morality, are you willing to say that the moral issue of slavery should be enforced simply as a moral issue? This is a very important point. Many people have offered the objection that we should not force a particular morality in the issue of abortion. My questions are very pointed and leading, and they were simply to make the point that virtually everybody who makes that kind of objection actually does believe that there are cases in which morality should be legislated. We talked about the obvious issue of slavery because there is the human rights issue that is at stake.


BTW in your example I would not be forcing the woman to act morally. If she were acting morally, she wouldn't be going to the back alley abortionist.

But maybe I missed your point. Maybe you meant that by making abortions illegal it will in fact make things worse, so I sould be satisfied with the status quo.
If abortion is illegal far fewer women will have abortions. As a result the amount of death and injury will be far less than the 1.4 million children killed in America anually.

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

[b]

You can't live without food or water either. If you give those to an infant child (albeit special food for a newborn, perhaps), it can survive fairly decently.

A fetus, on the other hand, probably wouldn't make it.[QB]
Lets say that one day we developed the technology to grow humans in vats. Would that mean that embryos were human all of a sudden? That a foetus needs a special environment in which to live does not mean they are not a person. A person might have an accident and require the special environment of life support in a hospital in order to survive. Does that mean they aren't people anymore?

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

[QB]
quote:
There are plenty of alternatives to choose from if you are really interested in choice, some of which are actually financed liberally by the government.
I am aware of exactly one: adoption. If finishing the entire pregnancy would be as devastating to the woman's life as having the child and raising it (i.e., we're talking about a fourteen-year-old who really ought to be in school and a nine month break would set her back rather far in the educational world), then this is hardly an equivalent substitute.[/b]
Substitute for what? Murder? If a woman has sex, they risk getting pregnant (though a fouteen-year-old shouldn't be yet). That is their choice. Freedom means making choices and then taking responsibility for the concequences of those choices. Once pregnant they may choose either to raise the child or to put it out for adoption. They do not have the right to kill their child.
Even in the case of rape (where there is no choice), the fact that the mother was brutally assaulted does not give her the right to then go and harm an innocent third party (i.e. the child). It's not the child's fault that it's mother was raped.

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

[QUOTE]
quote:
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I can't live in a test tube either. Being able to live without support does not define you as an individual. Having your own DNA would probably be a better measure.
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Interesting you should bring this up. In a funny piece of synchronicity, that creation/evolution article you linked to on the other thread mentions that due to a process of rapid mutation, the B lymphocytes of the immune system have significantly different DNA sequences from the rest of the body's cells (and from each other). I assume this doesn't mean you're about to start campaigning to give B lymphocytes the right to vote.

In fact, the "same DNA" standard is even curlier than that; by the time you reach adulthood, virtually all the cells in your body will have accumulated mutations and DNA damage sufficient to make each of them subtly different from every other. Obviously, your cells aren't all separate people, so unique DNA alone won't wash as a standard for individual personhood.

We weren't using it as a standard for pesonhood, just individuality. It is an organism that has different DNA than any part of it's mother's body. Therefore it is an unique organism.

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Character Traits In detail in Blades of Avernum
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Also, elite warrior gives you the Go Beserk ability.

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New Abortion Laws in General
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quote:
Originally written by ef:

The author states,
Creator, if you successfully prohibit abortion, the only outcome will be this: your girlfriends and wives won't tell you when they get pregnant as long as they haven't decided themselves, if they want the child or not. They will handle the issue silently.

I refer you to this section of the article I just linked to:

If abortion is made illegal it doesn't force women to do anything except allow their children to live. That's all. There are plenty of alternatives to choose from if you are really interested in choice, some of which are actually financed liberally by the government. Furthermore, why is it someone else's fault if you hurt yourself in the process of killing another innocent human being?

quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:

The author states,

Quote: “Does the dentist become part of the woman's body when he sticks his hand in her mouth to do her teeth?”

These are ridiculous statements. A fetus is dependent on its mother for life. It could not sustain life on its own until the third trimester. To compare it to a dentist with his hands in one's mouth is hardly accurate.

The statement you are referring was intended to demonstrate that location does not change what you are. As to the ability to survive outside the womb... The dentist is as dependant on his environment for survival as is the foetus or an astronaut. And even after it is born the child can't survive by itself for several more years.

quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:


Quote: “an unborn child can have a penis and women don't have penises. That is proof that there is a separate individual human being involved”

To claim a penis as a sign of individuality is equally amusing. Last time I heard a one-month fetus doesn't yet have a penis. That is not a brain or a sign of consciousness anyways.

I agree that using a penis to define individuality was poorly chosen. The unique DNA of the foetus would have been better. And you don't have to be conscious to be a person. After all, you don't stop being a person when you're asleep.

quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:


Creator, that entire article is one man's personal ranting. He offers no information on the development of the fetus. He speaks about the killing of abortion doctors, and makes claims that “pro-lifers” had nothing to do with it, who else would do that?

Someone who is anti-abortion but not pro-life. Pro-lifers belive the intentional killing of a human being is wrong (hence their stance on abortion) and would therefore be against the murder of abortionists.

quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:

If you were going to make anti-choice claims it would help to provide credible references that offer science rather than opinion.
Agreed. Here you go.
The last two may have some overlap.

Italianhitman, would you care to tell us why you belive that?

[ Thursday, March 24, 2005 22:00: Message edited by: The Creator ]
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New Abortion Laws in General
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After a fair bit of searching around I found this article. It gives a great overveiw of the whole pro-life position. I just wish it went into more detail on whether a foetus is a person.

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New Abortion Laws in General
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Profile #27
It wasn't a deliberate misinterpetation, it was an inability to understand your reply. I only figured out what you were saying when I read Thuryl's rephrasing of it.

And my brother has always been the one that you've debated with most. Did you see the edit?

[ Monday, March 21, 2005 23:20: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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New Abortion Laws in General
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Member # 112
Profile #3
As a matter of fact that's close to what they do. They stab the baby's head with a hollow tube and then suck it's brains out. The head collapses, making it much easier for the mother to push it out.

Oh, and it would be unconstitutional here too, if the babies were legally babies.

edit: I was aware that it had happened a while ago, but I'd only just heard of it. And thanks for making it clearer. There's no law supporting it, just no law against it.

[ Monday, March 21, 2005 14:29: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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New Abortion Laws in General
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Member # 112
Profile #0
I just recently learned of some new abortion laws in the ACT (that's the Australian Capital Territory, for you non-aussies). I have heard it is now legal to kill the baby at any stage during the pregnancy, as long as it is still partially inside it's mother. From what I understand it was done to allow a safer (for the mother) method of abortion.

It's called partial birth abortion. Basically, you induce labor and then kill the child as it is coming out. you would just have to be carful to kill it before it came all the way out, otherwise it's murder.

Is there anyone here who actually belives this is right?

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Article - Rollick in Blades of Avernum Editor
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Member # 112
Profile #11
He didn't say it was impossible to mix grit and rollick. He said that they don't work too well together. Emulations is a scenario that starts out gritty, but becomes rollicking. This is the most criticised aspect of the scenario.

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Article - Rollick in Blades of Avernum
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Profile #11
He didn't say it was impossible to mix grit and rollick. He said that they don't work too well together. Emulations is a scenario that starts out gritty, but becomes rollicking. This is the most criticised aspect of the scenario.

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Article - bjlhct2 On Scenario Design pt 1: Linearity in Blades of Avernum
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Member # 112
Profile #24
quote:
Originally written by DreamGuy:

Linearity is just plain bad.

How is it bad? It takes control away from the player. Not control over the world, but control over the player's characters. If the player doesn't have control over them, then he can become detached from them (see my article on Player Vs Party). It seems that for us old BoEer's this is not as much of a problem. Why?

What does BoE have that BoA doesn't? More scenarios. After hearing "Thank-you anonymous adventurer" for the twentieth time, you feel that your characters are completely unconnected to the world they are in. Then we found that you could create a lot more emotional impact if you had the player's characters know the people they were saving (or not saving - Alcritas is a master at this). But doing this took away some of the control. You can no longer say that your leader was an orphan raised by sliths, because you're busily trying to save his brother. But most of us found the trade-off well and truly worth it. So people started linking the party to the world they were in more and more. But the more you link the party to your world, the more of the player's control is taken from them. We were quite happy with this, because after scenario fifty, you've well and truly had enough "Thank-you anonymous adventurer".

But the new BoAers haven't experienced this, and until BoA has enough 'anonymous adventurer' they won't. Maybe once they've saved the world as many times as us 'oldies' their tastes will change as well.

Only time will tell.

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Illegal distribution on the BoAC in Blades of Avernum
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Member # 112
Profile #94
However, simply for the sake of proof, I'll borrow this SN one more time.

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Response to Community Suggestion List in Blades of Avernum Editor
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Member # 112
Profile #13
Good customer service is good policy. Nothing complicated about that.

DreamGuy, I see you've got pretty strong opinions. That's fine. But, by the same token, if you want us to change in any way, don't you think you should treat us with respect instead of calling us childish foot-stompers?

[ Wednesday, February 09, 2005 12:03: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Response to Community Suggestion List in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #13
Good customer service is good policy. Nothing complicated about that.

DreamGuy, I see you've got pretty strong opinions. That's fine. But, by the same token, if you want us to change in any way, don't you think you should treat us with respect instead of calling us childish foot-stompers?

[ Wednesday, February 09, 2005 12:03: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Response to Community Suggestion List in Blades of Avernum Editor
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Member # 112
Profile #9
Well, those feelings would have some sort of basis if these promises weren't very old and still unfufilled.

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