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Response to Community Suggestion List in Blades of Avernum
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #9
Well, those feelings would have some sort of basis if these promises weren't very old and still unfufilled.

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Spider Software Game Engine in General
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Profile #4
This is a community based around the products of a specific shareware developer.

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History of the community in General
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Member # 112
Profile #34
You completely misunderstood me. People were complaining that far less scenarios had been released in the early days of BoA than in the early days of BoE. I was simply pointing out that BoE did not have a rival editor (and a much easier-to-use one at that) at the time it was released. Count up the number of scenarios that have been released for either system since BoA's release and you'll come up with a similar number to pretty much any other year. If there was a time to worry, it was the 6th contest. For an entire year, we had 9 scenarios released. 3 were by TM. We currently have, what, 8 BoA scenarios released with 2 in beta? Plus probably a dozen BoE scenarios. There is no scenario shortage. That's all I was trying to say.

EDIT: Also, one could well ask why you criticise people for tearing newbies apart instead of encouraging them for the good things they do. :P Quite aside from the fact that, I think, the community is by and large very encouraging and helpful.

[ Tuesday, February 08, 2005 18:59: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Illegal distribution on the BoAC in Blades of Avernum
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Member # 112
Profile #2
*i could ban the guy. I think this is sufficient justification.

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History of the community in General
BoE Posse
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Profile #27
Rant? Do you mean ramble, perhaps? :P

I honestly don't see the problem. Plenty of scenarios - good scenarios, too - have been released since BoA came out. It's just that a lot of them have been made for BoE.

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Root of all evil in General
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Member # 112
Profile #275
Okay... so in your mind there is no real difference between something that is not there and something that is there but cannot be detected, correct? "True" and "false" are essentially human concepts and so nothing can be said to be true or false in the abscence of human observation, regardless of whether it's actually there or not.

Either that, or you're arguing an even more alien worldview. Forgive me if I have trouble understanding where you're coming from.

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History of the community in General
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Profile #3
The absolute best way to understand the BoE community is to play their scenarios. Trying to do so without doing that will be difficult.

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Root of all evil in General
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #273
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

[QUOTE]To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, to me, the statement "The planet Earth existed 1 billion years ago" is true now, but the statement "The planet Earth exists now" was NOT true 1 billion years ago.
That's whacked out, man. Do you seriously believe that, or do you simply adopt that viewpoint for the heck of it? I can see that being fun, because hey, it's impossible to disprove.

That kind of concept seems quite Terry Pratchett-ish to me.

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Used to Avernum, but want to buy Exile in Blades of Exile
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Member # 112
Profile #4
It's basically the same kind of engine. The spell system is a bit different, the skill system is a bit different, but it's easy to adjust.

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Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Announcment! get your Player Character concept made! in Blades of Avernum
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Profile #17
I think there are never enough cool looking human mages.

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Root of all evil in General
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Profile #209
I don't know much about such things (and had never heard of that particular story), so I won't argue too strenuously one way or the other. But, apparently, they were able to tell the genetic age of Dolly.

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Root of all evil in General
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Profile #207
Wandering around on Google, I found a list that you may or may not find interesting. Doesn't mean a lot to me, as I don't know who virtually any of these guys are. I also have no idea how reliable or comprehensive this list is, but you can take a squiz at it anyway. I notice that this is a list of "Creation Scientists" and not "Christian Scientists". I'm sure there's a fair number that believe in God but not a 6 day creation, but I have no idea how many or who they are.

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Root of all evil in General
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Member # 112
Profile #205
quote:
Originally written by *i:

quote:
Originally written by The Creator:

You demand a standard of proof far beyond what you would demand to prove that, say, the Earth is round or that man landed on the moon.
To the contrary, proving the Earth is round or man walked on the moon is relatively easy. I can propose experiments for both.

Earth is round: Let us launch an unarmed ICBM in one direction into orbit. If we see it come back from the other side we have substantiated the Earth is round. Sure, we could postulate magic faeries moved it to make it appear as such, but Occam's Razor comes to the rescue.

Man walked on the moon: This one is a little more difficult, but it is the in the realm of possibility. However, we have these pesky little moon rocks. An isotopic analysis of their compositon and features of micrometeroite formation processes shows that they could not have formed on Earth. How did they get here, well we could postuate they rained down on Earth from meteorite impacts and this is quite likely, so we need a little bit more. We could send a space probe to the sites where the landings occurred and look for evidence.

Neither one of these experiments PROVES that the Earth is round or we went to the moon, but gives good evidence for it. The standard of proof is that we can devise experiments to validate hypotheses.

Let us take the God hypothesis. What experiment can we run to find evidence to support it? Make sure you define the exact nature of God in your proposal.

That is the kind of proof that is sought.

For the purposes of this discussion, let us define God as "A supernatural force that occasionally does stuff that that would otherwise not be possible (or 'miracles')." This is something that should be testable - if we can find evidence of miraculous occurances, then God=true, otherwise false.

Trouble is, can we agree on what counts as valid evidence? Apparently, the story I posted earlier doesn't in your view. How many people need to witness something for it to be considered credible? How much evidence does there need to be for you to believe that it actually happened and was not falsified? E.g. if a man came back from the dead, would the account of multiple witnesses that he was cold and stiff before and video evidence of him walking around now be sufficient for you? Would you need a Death Certificate from a doctor? Would one doctor's opinion be enough? Would you need to smell the rotting flesh and see him get up yourself?

[ Saturday, January 29, 2005 20:49: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Root of all evil in General
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Profile #204
quote:
Originally written by *i:

...I ask you, where may I find this in a mainstream scientific journal?
To be honest, I dunno. I know little about the scientific community and which publications are considered the most reputable and what their websites are and whatever. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a fair bit out there - probably buried in the archives.

IIRC (and as evidenced by my messing up his name, I may not), he received his Ph.d from the University of Sydney for his achievement in creating opals - I believe he has no University education. This may (or may not) make him less credible in your eyes - I think it makes him way cool.

quote:
That being asked, I'm not sure how this proves anything in any way. We have made gemstones such as rubies and emeralds in a laboratory setting before in a fraction of the time it would occur naturally. I don't have the references in front of me, but I do remember hearing about it. I do not doubt with human intervention and an understanding of chemical processes, we can manufacture opals as well.
Agreed. It proves nothing other than that opals, like other gemstones, do not require vast timespans to form, merely the right conditions. I didn't mean to suggest anything else.

One minor point of disagreement - you say "We have made gemstones such as rubies and emeralds in a laboratory setting before in a fraction of the time it would occur naturally." Wouldn't it be accurate to say that you have no way of knowing that those gemstones formed naturally took longer than those made in the lab? It would just take some pretty extreme conditions.

quote:
Also, the article you site does not
Care to finish the sentence?

quote:
However, all respect to Dr. Cram, but he is just one scientist and a very minor one at that. You can find a handful of scientists with personal religious convictions in any scientific field. I can name many more like him if you want me to, but it will serve little use.

I was hoping for someone a little more prominent in a broad area of scientific inquiry. Nobel prize caliber is preferrable.

Sorry, I didn't read the thread properly and misunderstood the points that were attempting to be made. Unfortunately, I'm pretty unequipped to answer the question. As mentioned above, my knowledge of the scientific community is pretty limited. I probably couldn't name a Nobel Prize winner in the last 20 years, let alone tell you what their personal beliefs are (I do know a few historical cases, though, such as Michael Faraday and the obvious example of Newton). I brought up Cram because he was an example of a recent scientist who made a fairly major discovery as a direct result of applying his religious beliefs to scientific study. Again, apologies for missing the point.

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Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Root of all evil in General
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Member # 112
Profile #200
quote:
Originally written by SkeleTony:

Dispute away! Give us a single example of an event that is best explained by God.
See, that's impossible if you start from the mindset that ANYTHING remotely possible in the material world is infinitely more likely than a supernatural occurance, which seems to be your stance. If someone witnesses a miracle, he was hallucinating. If multiple people witness a miracle, they're lying. You demand a standard of proof far beyond what you would demand to prove that, say, the Earth is round or that man landed on the moon.

(If I've misunderstood you, forgive me.)

[ Saturday, January 29, 2005 19:31: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Root of all evil in General
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #198
quote:
Originally written by Bad-Ass Mother Custer:

Fantastic proof, please? If that's so, the bottom should have fallen out of the opal market entirely.
Fantastic proof ahoy.

I messed up on his name, though. It's Len Cram, not Len Sharp. Don't know how I got that one wrong.

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Root of all evil in General
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Not really worthwhile to argue the point further, so I won't bother.

Dr Len Sharp Ph.d is one modern day scientist with a strong religious belief who comes to mind. He's an Australian scientist based in Lightning Ridge, NSW. For those who don't know, that's where a whole bunch of opal mines are. The commonly accepted belief was that opals take millions of years to form. Being a Creationist, he didn't believe this to be true, so he set out to see if he could discover how they actually do form. He now grows opal seams in vegemite jars. Takes about 2 weeks.

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Root of all evil in General
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Member # 112
Profile #177
Perhaps I chose my words poorly. I suppose that we'd all agree that the most straightforward explanation is the most likely and simply disagree on which is the most straightforward.

*i, if that were the one and only such occurance, I'd probably agree with you. Thing is, there are a tremendous number of things that most Christians would accept as miracles that I know of. They could all be explained away in extreme ways, with hallucinations, lying, set ups and so forth. But the likelihood of that seems so small to me that it's much easier to believe that there's at least a fair bit of truth in them.

I guess I'm just curious to see at what point people would accept that divine/spiritual intervention is more likely than not.

EDIT: Kel, he assures me that there was nowhere they could have gone where he wouldn't have been able to see them.

[ Friday, January 28, 2005 19:08: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Root of all evil in General
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Thanks guys, I was just curious.

My basic stance on the subject goes like this: Logic and observation tell us that nothing happens or exists without a cause. Logic also tells us that at some point, something had to exist without a cause, else there would be no cause for everything else to exist. Thus, it makes sense to assume that some things happen that don't correspond with what we are able to reproduce in a laboratory. I.e. it makes more sense to me to allow for the possibility of the supernatural rather than preclude it simply because it doesn't follow the patterns of the natural world.

(This is probably covering old territory for you two. Sorry, didn't bother reading all that stuff.)

To provide an example, a story from a close friend of mine. This happened before he became a Christian. His life had completely fallen apart, and he decided to kill himself. He drove to the beach, got out of his car and started walking out into the ocean. Partway out, he thought he heard someone call his name. He kept going. He heard it again, and was sure this time. Looking back to the beach, he saw a woman with two dogs on the beach. Didn't recognise her.

He came back to the beach, and asked her if it was her that had called. She said no, and hadn't heard anything.

He got into his car, and started driving away. He glanced in his rearview mirror, and they were gone. He stopped quickly, got out, and looked around. They were completely gone, and no, there was nowhere out of sight they could have disappeared to in that space of time.

You argue he was hallucinating - after all, he was under a lot of stress. I prefer the more straightforward explanation.

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Root of all evil in General
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...yow, you two can type.

Distracting you both again, if you don't mind. Let's leave aside the theological implications for a moment. Say there was an actual miracle - a resurrection, for instance. How well would it need to be documented for you to take it seriously and/or believe it actually happened? At what point would the likelihood of falsification in your mind become smaller than the likelihood of a man coming back from the dead?

[ Thursday, January 27, 2005 13:37: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Root of all evil in General
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Profile #132
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

I fall into the weak atheist camp because I'm a fairly extreme sceptic about everything; after all, I can't even prove I'm not a brain in a jar (or a meta-brain in a meta-jar, if you insist on bringing up Hilary Putnam's argument against the BIAJ concept). Nor can logic itself prove itself consistent (or at least I hope it can't; Gödel's theorem shows that any formal system of sufficient power can only prove its consistency if it's inconsistent).

I think the choice between theism and atheism comes down to whether you want a belief system that explains as many things as possible or whether you only want to believe things for which there's compelling evidence. This is basically a philosophical choice (perhaps even an aesthetic choice). Strictly speaking, is there anything wrong with choosing to believe an unlikely hypothesis that answers a question when the only alternative would be to leave the question unanswered?

Out of interest, what would you accept as reasonable evidence of God's existence?

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In this thread, we have an abstract discussion without befouling pastries of any size in General
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I don't believe I ever said it did.

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In this thread, we have an abstract discussion without befouling pastries of any size in General
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Member # 112
Profile #48
quote:
Originally written by Bad-Ass Mother Custer:
You dodged the question. You're saying you don't believe it's necessary to give everyone the same shot at a good life, and that it is in fact desirable to have social status distinguished immediately at birth?
"No, I don't" is not dodging the question. It's a direct answer. It's not that hard to tell the difference.

In response to those two questions, no and no.

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In this thread, we have an abstract discussion without befouling pastries of any size in General
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Member # 112
Profile #42
quote:
Quick and important question, C: do you consider the idea of equality of opportunity an essentially desirable one?
Leaving aside the fact that it's practically impossible to implement? No, I don't. If one person has enough, it doesn't bother me in the slightest that the next has more.

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Areni
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In this thread, we have an abstract discussion without befouling pastries of any size in General
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Member # 112
Profile #32
quote:
You are allowed to do what you want with your property within reason. For example, 'owning' a farm doesn't make it legal to detonate a nuclear device on it; you'd be harming your neighbors. The same can be said of 'owning' money, or really anything; there's a limited supply of all goods, money being a special case of this, and hoarding actually hurts people who would otherwise receive parts of it (circular economy & all that).
1) Everything we do influences something else, so if we want to get anything done, I think it's fair to say that indirect consequences are rarely worth worrying about. Unless you're prepared to argue that I'm responsible for every business that goes bankrupt because I didn't spend there.

quote:
What's so wrong with making people give as much to the children of others as to their own? If they succeed, they're still doing well for their children.
Because it's theirs.

quote:
Again, the question is not one of rights but of merit. Yes, it's possible to lose your money and yes, it's possible for the rich not to give, but the fact remains that, as it stands, no matter how badly the children of the rich screw up, they will almost certainly die richer than the children of the poor. They are given more opportunity than the children of the poor, they are given more money than the children of the poor, and they just have more advantages than the children of the poor. They don't have to work as hard, they have more time to invest in planning for the future, and they usually get all they could ask for by way of family connections. Why do they deserve any of these things, personally? Why are they allowed to make more of themselves than anyone else just because of their last name?
I'm unconvinced that this is the way things work. More importantly, I don't believe that it is inherently wrong for someone to get more than he deserves.

quote:
I'm entirely curious as to what would motivate a devout Christian to believe the right of a corpse to manage its finances ranks above the right of a child not to subside on baked beans and love. I do happen to recall there being a generalized belief about sins of the fathers and the Son in particular having words about rich men and needles...
I'm not certain exactly what you're asking here. I absolutely agree that generousity to those less fortunate is a good thing. But the definition of generousity is that you choose to do it.

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