Bahss Rated...
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 16:05
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It's not an opinion in this case. Things such as "technically advanced" can be measured. TM, even if you stop designing, I certainly hope you don't leave the community. -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 16:07
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An opinion can be wrong when it's not an opinion but rather a statement of fact. In my opinion, BoA encourages dogged persistence more than anything else. It's a miserable engine to deal with, and exploiting the power it offers is beyond the technical abilities of most. For the most part, Canopy and Bahss are not so much good as large and solid; the kind of ratings we're seeing for both seem to represent more a sense of respect than a sense of entertainment. Of course, as Kelandon will not hesitate to remind you, I'm wrong (and also: screw me) and he is actually the crown princess of Avernum. TM will then turn around and insist it is he who is crown princess of Avernum. And around and around we go. I think we could improve the BoX community a lot by taking the more pigheaded designers - TM, Creator, Kel, et al - out and shooting them. They've done relatively good work, but their intolerable arrogance isn't justified based on that, and once people start fighting to the death under the presumption they're doing it for the lordly right to reshape an entire design continuum at will, it's definitely time for a reality check. Oh, and once we're back in sanity-land, allow me to just point out to Kelandon that TM initially had a valid point and dismissing it as the ramblings of an 'elite intelligensia' is not going to solve the problem. [ Wednesday, May 18, 2005 16:15: Message edited by: Custer XVI ] -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 16:08
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quote:But "quality of technical features" cannot. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 16:38
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And to think I have a scenario on my hard drive... just waiting to be released. -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 995
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 16:43
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quote:The original statement was (in paraphrase) "Bahs is better than Canopy". That is an opinion. TM said (in paraphrase) "no, it is a fact that Canopy is better than Bahs." Had either of the two people said "ScenarioX is more technically advanced than ScenarioY" then we would be talking about measurable facts. However, the operative word is "better." "Better" is a relative term. What is better for you is not necessarily what is better for me. In the case of entertainment, "better entertainment" is and always will be a matter of opinion only. EDIT: I am wrong. I assumed "Tek," was someone's name, not a perversion of the phrase "In regards to technology,". He was making a statement of something which is measurable. However, since he chose to spell "tech" incorrectly and leave out some key words, it wasn't communicating to me until I re-re-re-re-re-re-read the statement. So nevermind. EDIT2: However, I must say that technology alone is not entertainment. I was more entertained by Avernum1 (having never played Exile, the whole world was new to me) than any Avernum game or BoA scenario since. [ Wednesday, May 18, 2005 16:49: Message edited by: -silver- ] Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 17:50
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But Alec, you're wrong (and also: screw you), and I'm the crown princess of Avernum! :( I think a fair number of people on this thread are just being silly. My scenarios have flaws, and so do TM's, and probably each of us could learn a bit from the other. All I've said is that the people — all the people — who rate scenarios are entitled to their opinions (an idea which I would not have thought would be particularly controversial), and if some people like the scenarios I make, I'm happy (and this is egotistical how? — no, don't tell me: I don't want to know). So let's all calm down and get back to playing and designing. This is not useful to anyone. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 17:54
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Alec- Crown princess? More like "respected member" as a result of tons of hard work. I repeat the comments I made before: "This is tertiary, but the "TM only cares about ratings" inanity is also getting on my nerves. It's almost as if my patience isn't being tested by this degradation. I'm not trying to inflate any scores, especially mine- although don’t confuse me, I still think that the score ratios are off- I'm here to deflate scores and prevent a deflation of a community I've been working for roughly 4-5 years in." It is, for cheese and crackers, the point I've had to repeat myself on more often than any other. Can we not just leave this "pighead" the benefit of the doubt that he is genuinely ired by the state of things rather than whoring for ratings? My goodness! "and once people start fighting to the death under the presumption they're doing it for the lordly right to reshape an entire design continuum at will, it's definitely time for a reality check." There ain't no way I'd aim for that position- it hasn't happened yet, and it won't happen in the future. I have 20+ scenarios, and the only person to significantly copy features from any of my scenarios both stylistically and technically is Bain-Ihrno. I'm used to not being a role model. But I'd think you of all people would be one in opinion with me that this right which Kel already has needs to be used properly. "I think we could improve the BoX community a lot by taking the more pigheaded designers - TM, Creator, Kel, et al - out and shooting them. They've done relatively good work, but their intolerable arrogance isn't justified based on that" Oh yeah, just a question... What "intolerable arrogance" have I been responsible? I'm not against taking this point, but I'm left wondering why. EDIT: Nice asscover, Kel. No, really. [ Wednesday, May 18, 2005 17:55: Message edited by: Kirk Johnson ] -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 18:28
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I actually kind of frightened that I might make your head spin off and explode, but I gotta ask this anyways. When you said "But I'd think you of all people would be one in opinion with me that this right which Kel already has needs to be used properly," what on earth are you talking about? What right? ??? ????? Is there a list somewhere? In an effort to learn scripting, I've been studying your files related to canopy, and it all looks really hard to have done. Way beyond me, so I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to write that scenario. It was a fun play, even though I couldn't use CoB. Any chance you could recommend a more simply scripted scenario for me to tear apart? :) -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 18:43
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Valley of the Dying Things. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 19:20
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It is true regardless, that any person taking the time to design and finish a scenario is worthy of praise. I believe Bahsikahva is a more enjoyable scenario than Canopy. That matters little as I am but one person. I have played both, and in the future perhaps will play more TM scenarios. People do not have to like something because it comes from a well established designer. I am also curious about why Kelandon must be careful designing scenarios. I assume you are talking about his perceived vast popularity being princess and all. [ Wednesday, May 18, 2005 19:22: Message edited by: VCH ] -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 19:50
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I have read this in idle curiosity and haven't played any scenarios, but I think I have some idea of what TM is bothered about. I hesitate to make a suggestion when I know nothing of the details, but would TM's cause perhaps be helped any by such a simple measure as establishing another rating and criticism site, on which only sufficiently experienced designers and players would be permitted to post? Since these folks are apparently few and well known to each other, identifying them should pose no problem. If the contributors to the 'expert critics' site made a decent effort to make their comments intelligible to less experienced readers, then I would think that as many of those as had ears to hear might still be recruited to the 'elite' community, enabling it to survive. In other words, why be a mere apostate when you can be a heresiarch? -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 19:53
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I don't like that idea. We should avoid meritocracy if possible. Though there's nothing I could do to stop it from being done. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, May 18 2005 23:43
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Well, there's already another well-respected scenario rankings site: CSR . There's no requirement for membership as such (you just have to register and you can review all you like), but the rankings are generally representative of the Lyceum community (mostly designers) rather than the broader BoA community. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 01:16
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I am hoping that by the start of the scenario contest, June 1st, we will have a couple more candidates for crown princess :P . A four way argument is always better than a two way argument it is more confusing and entertaining. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 04:33
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quote:I'm just calling it like I see it. Your first post in this topic amounted to a flame against Kelandon's scenario, which you don't like. This isn't a business; you didn't apply for this job or get hired for it. Anyone can volunteer his time to write and release a scenario if he wants to - you're better at it than most - but there's nothing you can do about "the direction of the community." It's not worth kicking up a fuss over, and it's certainly juvenile to pin your rage on one person, however well-written your barbs may be. [ Thursday, May 19, 2005 04:39: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 04:50
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"I'm just calling it like I see it. Your first post in this topic amounted to a flame against Kelandon's scenario, which you don't like." There's a fundamental difference, though. (Which you apparently haven't divined yet.) The "complements" for Kel's works and the "critiques" for other people's works are both totally inane and anachronistic. Not that I would expect you to know this- but that's also part of why I'm clamoring to keep us out of the stone age. "This isn't a business; you didn't apply for this job or get hired for it." You're right. It's not. Involvement in the business world is motivated to a good extent by money, whereas what I and so many others here have done, do, and will continue to do is motivated by a love of the game with no strings attached. It's not a business, it's a volunteer project, and therefore even MORE worth my time to preserve. "Anyone can volunteer his time to write and release a scenario if he wants to" Anyone can go to a soup kitchen and serves meals if s/he wants to. "you're better at it than most " And have put time and effort into both design and extensive community development "but there's nothing you can do about 'the direction of the community.'" Hence my anger. "It's not worth kicking up a fuss over" You may be right- my audience is too asshatedly cussed to listen to anything I have to say in any form whatsoever, despite any credentials of my sincerity. "and it's certainly juvenile to pin your rage on one person" Which is why I am venting at players and scenarios which are avatars of the detrimental effects I've spent this whole topic describing. Do you somehow not understand my concern here? I have seen the community change for the better through the acts of devoted designers and players who were both critical and constructive. Now, the metaphorical nuclear apocalypse has come, and I'm being shouted down for trying to reconstruct civilization. Do you not understand why this irks me so? I swear. A divorce indeed. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 05:00
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I've said it before and I'll say it again: can't we all just get a dong? -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 05:55
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quote:But your diatribe for all intents and purposes seems to be specifically aimed at Kel. I've read your reviews on the CSR, and though you're typically quite critical, your remarks toward his scenarios take on a personal edge. Sometime during the beta testing of Bahss things turned sour between you two. Can't you (both) just get over this? Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 06:49
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TM: I fail to see how Kelandon making scenarios that people "shouldn't" like is bad for direction of the community or whatever. You can carry on making scenarios full of philosphical stuff, he can carry on making scenarios the way he wants, and players can play the ones they enjoy. Trying to force things into a single "direction" will do nothing but limit the variety (and number) of scenarios that get released, and alienate players who would like to have fun killing things and solving laser puzzles, or who want a simple plot, or whatever. Remember that BoA is a computer game, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with a player wanting some mindless relaxation or some screwy puzzling. The best siutuation would be people making quality scenarios of all styles. If people find that Kelandon's style gets boring or overdone, they can just not play his scenarios. If people find that your style gets boring or overdone, they can just not play your scenarios. As for complaints about people's opinions being anachronistic, it's generally the case that something that was good X years ago is still good. Also, a lot of people have not played BoE and (although several of the world's religions will disagree with me here) that's not a sin. There is no scenario which I think we would be better off without, and I can't see that changing any time soon. -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. New Mac BoE Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5632
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 08:01
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quote:Now there's an idea. Somebody should try to design a scenario that actually is better off not existing. It could be a true contest of skill. Each of you designs a scenario, and whichever one does more actual harm (probably psychological, but defined however you want) to the player wins. You could have a rating system. Like, convincingly propogating racial stereotypes is a certain number of points. And you would get points for inducing all sorts of things in the player, like an eating disorder, TM-like misanthropy, Mormonism, or just plain stupidity. The trick is not to just make an awful scenario - that's easy. The trick is to make an awful scenario that people will actually want to play and be negatively affected by. Whoever wins will surely have proved the other wrong by showing exactly what's wrong with the other's scenarios through the broken wrecks of human beings that will be the playtesters. Anyway, it's just an idea. Or everybody could just calm down a little. Either way is fine. Posts: 14 | Registered: Saturday, March 26 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 09:40
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If I'm not mistaken, Shotts made a scenario that BoE would've been better off without, and so did Wild Ali. AM: I bear no hostility towards TM. My first reply was simply a standard response to trolls. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 12:18
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quote:I repeat the comment about asscovering. You are an expert, I swear it. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 12:48
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It certainly makes the sniping easier to handle when the signatures are longer than the barbs. :D :D -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 13:19
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Actually, this was initially a play on Creator's signature. Wait- it still IS. :P -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Thursday, May 19 2005 14:05
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Messieurs, don't restrain TM from mailing "Mad Ambition" to his Beta testers ;_; -------------------- Slartucker: * facepalm facepalm facepalm * Dikiyoba: Are you unconscious yet? Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |