Chinese Products Fail Again

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Author	Topic: Chinese Products Fail Again
Randomizer Law Bringer Member # 6785	written Saturday, November 10 2007 01:40 Profile #50 quote: Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon: quote: Originally written by Taliesin: I should have remembered that a lot of America thinks differently. What on earth does that mean? We have strange ideas about the law and applying it. Look at the linguistic and legal struggles over torture. Applying the Bush doctrine to preemptive invaisions of a country to stop terrorism or possible terrorism. We could invade Afghanistan and Iraq over 9/11 and weapons of mass destruction. But now Turkey wants to invade Iraq because the PKK Kurdish terrorists have repeatedly attacked them from their safe havens in Kurdish Iraq. Posts: 4643 \| Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
The Almighty Doer of Stuff Shaper Member # 73	written Saturday, November 10 2007 03:22 Profile #51 This thread is awesome. Scorched Earth Party '08! Screw the judicial system! Lead pipes are all the judicial system we need! -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Saturday, November 10 2007 04:53 Profile Homepage #52 Thuryl is absolutely right. It's very hard to get a conviction for rape compared to other violent and traumatic crimes such as murder or simple physical assault. The reason is that the definition of sexual assault is much more specific. First there is the issue of proving the sex happened. If you have a dead body, it's hard to argue there wasn't a murder. If you have an injured person, obviously there was an injury. While rape leaves physical evidence, the evidence is comparably fleeting, often going away after a single shower -- which, if your body has been violated in a disgusting way, is probably the first thing you'd think of doing. (Additionally, the fleeting evidence has more chances to not be collected: using the evidence collection kit, even if it is done by skilled and caring medical personnel, is re-traumatizing both physically and psychologically for the survivor, so s/he might choose not to do it; and the survivor might not report the rape early enough to use the kit, or at all.) Second there is the issue of proving lack of consent. This is not an issue in other crimes. While you can always argue that somebody committed suicide, generally, if there is a murder, you can be pretty sure the victim did not give informed consent to what happened. Same thing for physical assault. Really, who asks you to maim them? But since non-assaultive sex is so common, you have to prove lack of consent. For the vast majority of rapes, acquaintance rapes, this is very hard to do. Sex (whether assaultive or not) typically does not involve third parties or recording devices. So it comes down to she said vs she said. And this is never enough in a criminal case, where the standard of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt. Even if a jury thinks that the survivor has a convincing and probable story, it's hard for them to completely rule out an impulsive one-night stand without additional evidence, evidence that usually does not exist in rape cases. For this reason, only a small percentage of reported rapes are prosecuted. Usually, there just isn't enough evidence to get a conviction. Non-standard rapes, such as rapes of men and rapes committed by women, are almost never prosecuted because the different pattern is an additional chance for the defense to argue against the rape. (And both of those types of rape do happen!) Having huge penalties for conviction is a poor deterrent for crimes if the criminal thinks they can probably get away with it -- or if they don't even think they are committing a crime, which is the attitude some men have about having sex when their partner doesn't want to. The way to stop rape is to change our culture. When we have a culture where individual freedom is respected, where people are taught the social skills they need to survive as a single adult, where women are treated with dignity not just on paper but also in bars, and where the psychological impact of alcohol consumption is better recognized -- then maybe we can stop rape. But we're pretty far away from that right now. While we think it's okay to control another person, while so many of us don't know how to cope with adulthood, while women are treated as objects and the phrase "drugs and alcohol" has to be used instead of just "drugs," it's gonna be hard to do that. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central "Making poorly-sourced claims is not the same as determining something." Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Saturday, November 10 2007 05:25 Profile Homepage #53 quote: Originally written by Yama Toman?: The way to stop rape is to change our culture. The way to stop rape is to walk across a desert without food and water. To empty the oceans with a teaspoon. To unmoor the stars from the sky. You may as well suggest banning all sex except for group sex. At least then if someone is raped, there'll be witnesses. I'm laughing now, because I can't do anything else. [ Saturday, November 10, 2007 05:26: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Saturday, November 10 2007 06:29 Profile Homepage #54 I agree with your metaphors. If we don't attempt such impossible tasks, what good are we at all? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central "Making poorly-sourced claims is not the same as determining something." Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Excalibur Agent Member # 8030	written Saturday, November 10 2007 11:07 Profile Homepage #55 I never thought of juries, so my proposal won't work in America regardless of how hard I try, because juries are laid down in the constitution. Slarty, rape is inevitable. Trying to eliminate rape is analogous to attempting to eliminate prostitution. The only thing we can do is to educate the public, and try to prevent such incidents from happening. -------------------- "On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and the tossing of the sea" Luke 21:25 Posts: 1384 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Saturday, November 10 2007 12:22 Profile #56 We could always try to find a base species with a stricter moral code than our own, and then evolve it so that it can become the prime species of the planet. Aren't there some dooks that mate for life? Or is that a different bird? -------------------- Synergy, et al - "I don't get it." Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted" Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Taliesin Infiltrator Member # 10578	written Saturday, November 10 2007 13:19 Profile Homepage #57 I mate for life. :D So do angelfish. -------------------- "We were meant to live for so much more. Have we lost ourselves?" - Switchfoot ---- My poetry Posts: 432 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2007 07:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Saturday, November 10 2007 13:31 Profile Homepage #58 It's all about the bonobos. Comparing rape and prostitution is a bit shaky, considering that practically no one will suggest rape can have an entirely positive social function, whereas plenty of people will argue that for prostitution (and quite rationally, however much the idea may be anathema to Winnemucca). -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central "Making poorly-sourced claims is not the same as determining something." Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Saturday, November 10 2007 13:35 Profile #59 quote: Originally written by Om, Lum, Yum: practically no one will suggest rape can have an entirely positive social function I'll posit that in a historical content, vis a vis amorally promoting the fittest of the species, that conquest rape had an entirely positive social function. In a small world, a rapist would be known, and the rape victim would have the confidence to point out the rapist to friends and family. They would then play the shame game until that person left that society to make their own way as a social outcast. But yeah, now it doesn't happen that way, at least in the big world context of Ameriduh. -------------------- Synergy, et al - "I don't get it." Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted" Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Excalibur Agent Member # 8030	written Saturday, November 10 2007 13:44 Profile Homepage #60 quote: (and quite rationally, however much the idea may be anathema to Winnemucca) Sarcastically: very funny Slarty Just because I reside in a place with legalized prostitution doesn't mean I support it. In fact, I am opposed to it. What's ironic: Winnemucca is infested with Mormans. -------------------- "On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and the tossing of the sea" Luke 21:25 Posts: 1384 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00
Taliesin Infiltrator Member # 10578	written Saturday, November 10 2007 13:58 Profile Homepage #61 quote: Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon: I'll posit that in a historical content, vis a vis amorally promoting the fittest of the species, that conquest rape had an entirely positive social function. See Gilgamesh for details... except that not even the Mesopotamians viewed that as a positive thing. They were totally into prostitution though. Eugenically speaking, that reminds me of the ancient Germanic tribes, whose brutal culture of survival of the fittest resulted in whole nations of 6'5", Hulk-ish warriors. -------------------- "We were meant to live for so much more. Have we lost ourselves?" - Switchfoot ---- My poetry Posts: 432 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2007 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Saturday, November 10 2007 14:36 Profile #62 It's worth pointing out that in the longer term diversity is a survival asset, and that there is such a thing as overselection. Brutal survival of the fittest is not just cruel, but dumb. You end up sacrificing way too many of the currently poor genes that might save your culture when conditions change next millennium. Worse still, diminishing returns set in, and you sacrifice that future flexibility in order to get only a negligible bit of extra average height and hulkingness — or whatever other trait is the fetish of the day —in your ruling class. This goes for a lot of other selection situations, not just eugenics: hiring workers, rewarding CEOs, choosing R&D strategies, whatever. Overoptimization kills. The wisdom is to recognize when the efficiency of your selection process has hit the limit of your cost-weighted confidence that you are really selecting for the right thing. Then hedge your bets by tolerating mediocrity. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Drew By Committee Member # 4233	written Saturday, November 10 2007 16:04 Profile #63 Christ Almighty! This topic has run a bit amok. I think that Thuryl is correct, in so far as that harsher prison sentences work poorly as disincentives, while possibly creating an incentive to kill the victim. Despite the sense you get from hoi polloi, the U.S. criminal legal system actually does a pretty good job at focusing on things like evidence and just application of the law, as opposed to emotional shots from the hip ("they should all get the death penalty!!!"). Of course there are exceptions, but they are just that - exceptions. That said, rape is a ridiculously contentious issue in law, frequently because of the lack of independent witnesses and the difficulty of determining intent. The brutal ones generally are no brainers; the difficult ones are the date rape cases. EDIT: Personally, I'm opposed to the death penalty because I can't stomach anyone innocent being put to death, even if it occurs only once every 100,000 times (and it happens much, much more frequently than that). Maybe it's hokey, but Gandalf's line in The Fellowship of the Ring movie stuck with me - you can't give life back to someone who's dead, so we shouldn't be so quick to deal out death and judgment. To me, life in a little cell is punishment enough. [ Saturday, November 10, 2007 16:11: Message edited by: Drew ] -------------------- In today’s America, there are more World of Warcraft players than farmers. Posts: 2242 \| Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Saturday, November 10 2007 16:12 Profile #64 quote: Originally written by Drew: Christ Almighty! This topic has run a bit amok. Hah! I was as surprised as you. :P -------------------- Synergy, et al - "I don't get it." Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted" Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Najosz Thjsza Kjras Lifecrafter Member # 6388	written Saturday, November 10 2007 16:54 Profile #65 quote: Originally written by Excalibur: The country of Brunei carries a mandatory death penalty for drug dealing, and because of it, Brunei enjoys the absence of illicit drugs. Or so Brunei claims. It's not a claim anyone bothers to refute or qualify because of a well-established diplomatic principle I like to refer to in situations like this: 'who gives a ** about Brunei?' quote: Like drug dealers, rapists are often repeat offenders, and eliminating them is better for humanity. Most rapists are actually first-time offenders and the recidivism rate is lower in countries with a more efficient penal system (e.g. less focused on throwing people into prison, letting them sodomize and assault each other, and then dumping them unceremoniously on the streets). I think you've got an extremely simplistic view of crime that boils down to 'people who commit crimes are evil'. That's usually not how it works, and a lot of the time you're killing someone for no particularly good reason. Making a corpse out of someone isn't gonna change what they've done, and refusing to offer them a way to change is sort of on the evil side. Posts: 794 \| Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00**
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Saturday, November 10 2007 22:48 Profile Homepage #66 quote: Originally written by Taliesin: quote: Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon: I'll posit that in a historical content, vis a vis amorally promoting the fittest of the species, that conquest rape had an entirely positive social function. See Gilgamesh for details... except that not even the Mesopotamians viewed that as a positive thing. Um, how does Gilgamesh suggest that? The fact that Gilgamesh raped all the women was one of the complaints the people had against Gilgamesh, that caused them to turn to the gods for help. And I'll point out that I said "entirely positive," not "positive." It's not hard to argue that, at least under certain very limited circumstances, prostitution doesn't cause unrest or other social problems, and doesn't make anybody unhappy. It's hard to imagine any circumstances in which rape doesn't make somebody unhappy and cause some kind of social disturbance. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central "Making poorly-sourced claims is not the same as determining something." Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Excalibur Agent Member # 8030	written Saturday, November 10 2007 23:10 Profile Homepage #67 quote: Or so Brunei claims. You mean the CIA...strange thing quoting a criminal organization. The World Factbook quote: Illicit drugs: drug trafficking and illegally importing controlled substances are serious offenses in Brunei and carry a mandatory death penalty quote: who gives a **** about Brunei Why, because their system shows the benefits of the death penalty. Oh, and watch your language please. quote: I think you've got an extremely simplistic view of crime that boils down to 'people who commit crimes are evil'. Oh really? I only have those views of murderers, rapists, homosexuals, corrupt government officials, and female pastors. Drug dealers don't fall into that category to me, maybe because the Bible makes no reference to them. quote: and refusing to offer them a way to change is sort of on the evil side. I am here to assure you that Joseph Smith is burning in hell! sarcasticallyGod is very evil isn't he These all are crimes that were punished with death. Exodus 21:12-17 quote: Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. However, if he does not do ti intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. But if the man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death. Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death. Anyone who curses his father for mother must be put to death Exodus 21:22-25 quote: If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise Exodus 21:29 quote: If, however, the bull has had the habit of goring and the owner has been warned but has not kept it penned up and it kills a man or woman, the bull must be stoned and the owner also must be put to death. Exodus 22:18-20 quote: Do not allow a sorceress to live. Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death. Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the Lord must be destroyed. Exodus 22:22-24 quote: Do not take advantage of a widow or an orphan. If you do and they cry out to me, I will certainly hear their cry. My anger will be aroused, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives will become widows and your children fatherless. Isn't this fun? Leviticus 20:2 quote: Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death Leviticus 20:10 quote: If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. Leviticus 20:13 quote: If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:14 quote: If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you. Rest of chapter goes into incest laws, punished by death. Deuteronomy 22:23-25 quote: If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death--the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you. But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who had done this shall die. If you were wondering about my sig, it predicts global warming. Sorry, Excalibur cannot come to the phone right now, but Excalipur will gladly answer it for you. Attention passengers, it is not advised to wear your seat belts during a crash landing. Thank you. -------------------- "On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and the tossing of the sea" Luke 21:25 Posts: 1384 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Saturday, November 10 2007 23:35 Profile #68 quote: Originally written by Excalibur: Oh, and watch your language please. You're so cute when you stamp your feet. quote: Oh really? I only have those views of murderers, rapists, homosexuals, corrupt government officials, and female pastors. Drug dealers don't fall into that category to me, maybe because the Bible makes no reference to them. Why? -------------------- Synergy, et al - "I don't get it." Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted" Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Saturday, November 10 2007 23:53 Profile #69 quote: Originally written by Excalibur: ... murderers, rapists, homosexuals, corrupt government officials, and female pastors. The female pastor: anchor on the relay team of evil. :rolleyes: -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Sunday, November 11 2007 00:08 Profile Homepage #70 quote: Originally written by Excalibur: quote: Or so Brunei claims. You mean the CIA...strange thing quoting a criminal organization. The World Factbook quote: Illicit drugs: drug trafficking and illegally importing controlled substances are serious offenses in Brunei and carry a mandatory death penalty Uh, "or so Brunei claims" was obviously meant to refer to the bit about there not being any drug trafficking in Brunei. In fact, countries with harsh sentences for drug trafficking usually have very high rates of drug trafficking, which is why they instituted such serious penalties in the first place. Regarding the rest of your screed: I assume you shun everyone who wears polyester-cotton blends, then? -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Arancaytar Law Bringer Member # 2984	written Sunday, November 11 2007 01:03 Profile Homepage #71 quote: Originally written by Excalibur: Oh really? I only have those views of murderers, rapists, homosexuals, corrupt government officials, and female pastors. Drug dealers don't fall into that category to me, maybe because the Bible makes no reference to them. Calling somebody stupid is not a good debate argument, but on occasion unavoidable. Consider yourself soundly ad-hominemed. -------------------- The Noble and Ancient Order of Polaris - We're Not Yet Dead. Encyclopedia • Blades Forge • Archives • Stats • RSS (This Topic / Forum) • Blog • NaNoWriMo Did-chat thentagoespyet jumund fori is jus, hat onlime gly nertan ne gethen Firyoubbit 'obio.' Decorum deserves a whole line of my signature, and an entry in your bookmarks. Posts: 8752 \| Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Sunday, November 11 2007 06:10 Profile Homepage #72 quote: Originally written by Excalibur: ... murderers, rapists, homosexuals, corrupt government officials, and female pastors. No offense, Excalibur, but it sounds like you are just blindly repeating what you hear from your parents (or some other authority figure). That isn't really an accurate list of what you'd get from the Bible. Listing murderers and rapists clearly makes sense, but there are a lot of varieties of people whom the Bible calls evil more often than female pastors, or queers for that matter. For one thing, what about people who don't recognize Jesus as their savior? It goes on and on about them. :rolleyes: -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central "Making poorly-sourced claims is not the same as determining something." Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
We Didn't Shard of Fire Infiltrator Member # 4826	written Sunday, November 11 2007 06:50 Profile #73 My favorite: "If two men get into a fight with each other, and the wife of one comes up to save her husband from his antagonist and puts out her hand and seizes him by his genitals, you shall cut off her hand; show no pity." -------------------- "Of course, not all technology is good. Some is exactly the opposite (bad)." — Dave Barry Posts: 458 \| Registered: Friday, August 6 2004 07:00
Arancaytar Law Bringer Member # 2984	written Sunday, November 11 2007 07:17 Profile Homepage #74 It says that? I would voice disbelief, but I know better by now... -------------------- The Noble and Ancient Order of Polaris - We're Not Yet Dead. Encyclopedia • Blades Forge • Archives • Stats • RSS (This Topic / Forum) • Blog • NaNoWriMo Did-chat thentagoespyet jumund fori is jus, hat onlime gly nertan ne gethen Firyoubbit 'obio.' Decorum deserves a whole line of my signature, and an entry in your bookmarks. Posts: 8752 \| Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00