A Public Opinion Survey

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AuthorTopic: A Public Opinion Survey
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #0
So, I recently was sitting in boredom listening to music, when I realized a twist on the old Pirate v. Ninja debate. So, I come before you with a variety of examples, that if I may say, are very stereotypical of me.

1. A pirate of the Golden Age of Piracy in the Caribbean, with all of his stereotypical weaponry, battles a similarily stereotypical ninja to the death. Please state who the victor would be and why.

2. A stereotypical Viking raider operating primarily in the British Isles, with all of his stereotypical weaponry, battles a similarily Spartan you would find in the Battle of Thermopylae to the death. Please state who the victor would be and why.

3. A party member from Avernum/Exile at the end of the game who has learned all of the priest spells and mage spells duels in a magic competition with a Shaper/Lifecrater PC at the end of the game who can Shape all creations and cast all spells. Please state the victor and the reason why.

4. A stereotypical Japanese samurai with all of his armor and weaponry battles a knight who also has all of his armor and weaponry. Please state who the victor would be and why, keeping in mind they're both on horseback.

5. A stereotypical Aztec warrior with all of his stereotypical weaponry battles a similarily stereotypical Celtic warrior to the death. Please state who the victor would be and why. Please note that this is not Nethergate or Nethergate: Resurrection.

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I don't need no stinking signature.
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #1
quote:
3. A party member from Avernum/Exile at the end of the game who has learned all of the priest spells and mage spells duels in a magic competition with a Shaper/Lifecrater PC at the end of the game who can Shape all creations and cast all spells. Please state the victor and the reason why.

Shaper with existing creations would go first since its creations would have higher dexterity. Creations depending upon type would either blast the Avernum/Exile spellcaster to oblivion or at least stun/slow so there isn't a real response. Even if there is a response, the Shaper would have the lowest dexterity of the combat and still have another chance.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Warrior
Member # 6714
Profile Homepage #2
1. Since we're talking stereotypes, the Ninja hands down. They have powers that could easily devastate the pirate before the pirate knew what hit him, from being able to walk on water--and thus out of reach of the pirate--to being able to toss shurikens with robotic accuracy.

2. The Spartan, again hands down. The Spartans were an organized military force with a wide variety of military forces suited to a number of different occasions, while the Vikings were merely pirates suited only to the Scandinavian coastline territories...admittedly there they would have an advantage of familiarity over the Spartan, but on any other territory they would lose guaranteed.

3. This is a tough one, however...I'd bet on the Shaper with their creations, because they have straight from the beginning several other party members, as it were, whereas the Avernum person is by themselves. Also, usually, the Avernum person will have a much lower endurance and dexterity than the creations owing to the fact that they're used to using the melee peeps in their party as shields as well as the fact that most of their skill points are spent on getting their intelligence and mage and priest skills to reasonable levels. Also, the Shaper's creations, unlike any summons from the Avernum person, are permenant.

Still, the Avernum person does have a few tricks up their sleeve, especially depending on the specific Avernum game. Avernum II on they have the advantage of Capture Soul/Simulacrum which can allow them to spawn Wizards, Ur-Basilisks, and other crazy things. Depending on whether they can cast Beast Ceremony before the fight begins or not, they may still be able to go first enough to cast things like Divine Warrior or Arcane Shield, plus they could summon up an Ur-Basilisk or two. A couple of those will make the creations cry.

It all comes down to luck more than anything else, as well as specific details that aren't pinned down.

4. The Knight, most definitely. Even stereotypically speaking, the Samurai has to deal with their pitiful armor in comparison to the Knight's armor. Sure, their swords can stereotypically penetrate the Knight's armor, but they do not have lances...their closest equivalent are naginatas, which are not associated with the stereotype of being able to penetrate anything. As such, the Samurai falls to the Knight's lance pretty early.

5. Oooh, now there's a good one. I'd say Celtic though, if only because the Celts could make weapons out of stronger materials than the Aztecs could. The Aztecs could not work iron; the Celts could. And while the Celts did usually go into battle naked, they did occasionally wear armor.

But it'd still be close.

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Well that signature was out of date, since I've not been here in forever.
Posts: 91 | Registered: Thursday, January 19 2006 08:00
Agent
Member # 1934
Profile Homepage #3
quote:


2. A stereotypical Viking raider operating primarily in the British Isles, with all of his stereotypical weaponry, battles a similarily Spartan you would find in the Battle of Thermopylae to the death. Please state who the victor would be and why.

The Viking. The strength of the Spartans was in numbers and fighting in teams. Once the viking got past the Spartans spear, it would be no contest.

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Posts: 1169 | Registered: Monday, September 23 2002 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #4
1. Pirates would have a huge advantage on a moving ship from experience, and guns are good to have (although pirates weren't armed with the very best of modern weapons!). That said, the stereotypical ninja is trained to a far greater extent. I think I'd go with the ninja on this one. In fact, I think any assassin could probably take out your average pirate.

2. The Spartans were individually dangerous and made good use of phalanxes, but the Vikings were the masters of individual berserk combat (stereotypically, at least). I think iron arms and armor might carry the day here, and individual combat isn't really what the Spartans were most famous for.

3. The Shaper has a larger group with him, but the Avernites are all quite impressive. I'll just call spells a wash and say that while creations are impressive, PCs are always more impressive and outnumber the shaper four to one. I'd give the victory to the Avernites, but not without casualties.

4. Good question. I know less about Japanese cavalry than European, but I think European emphasis on mounted combat and especially the use of the lance and heavier armor would give the knight and edge here.

5. Iron weapons and armor (although I suppose the stereotype is naked) against essentially Stonage Age armaments? I don't think the Aztec could remain armed long enough to win.

—Alorael, who doesn't think the stereotypes are especially meaningful, since stereotypical ninjas are practically magical, stereotypical samurai are definitely mystical, stereotypical knights are brutes, stereotypical vikings are even more brutish, the Spartans are now heavily 300ized, and Celts have become uniformly berserkers (like Vikings). Really, weaponry and techniques steadily advanced, and the most recent fighter would probably be the winner.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 6714
Profile Homepage #5
I'm afraid, Alorael, I'll have to Question Your Authority by pointing out that the question specified a LONE Avernum party member, not the whole party.

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Well that signature was out of date, since I've not been here in forever.
Posts: 91 | Registered: Thursday, January 19 2006 08:00
Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
Profile Homepage #6
The Exile party member would win, since immortality isn't too hard to get.

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Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram.

New Mac BoE
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
Profile Homepage #7
1. Even a brilliant, successful pirate depends more on bluster and intimidation in forces than on skill. In a one-on-one, the ninja wins every time.
Now, a ninja trying to take out a pirate captain on a fully-crewed ship at sea would likely land a better chance of being killed by accident by a crew member than getting close enough to kill his target.

2. Vikings were traditionally trained to do that whole one-on-one berserk thing. Spartans, not so much. While I do anticipate some rather fancy weapon and footwork from the Spartan, the guy with more armor who is used to lobbing off limbs for a living will likely do more damage faster. The Viking will likely walk away wondering why all the Spartan used to deffend himself was a pointed stick.

3. My first inclination is that the Shaper's creations would totally rock the Avernite during the first turn; however, there are a few game aspects that appear to be overlooked.
Firstly, to get through an Avernum game, one has to take on odds like a half-dozen full-powered creations for every party member several times. While this is obviously only a single member from a party, one can assume that the Avernite is well-armored and skilled enough to take at least one round's worth of severe beatings, if not several rounds' worth.
Secondly, in keeping with Avernum tradition, this Avernite, being a spellcaster, will naturally down a Haste potion and then cast Arcane Summon. Several times. Likely with much potion-drinkage in between, regardless of who or what is in the adjacent tiles.
The shaper will no doubt attempt to force all missile attacks at the Avernite, but will have to seriously consider defense once the summoned demons start calling in reinforcements.
I see one of two outcomes: either the Avernite somehow manages to pack enough potions to out-summon/heal/cast the shaper, who we can assume is equally equipped with pods and potions; or the Avernite will slip out somewhere in the summoning orgy and flee, causing a draw .

4. My limited knowledge of the samurai (especially in relation to my knowledge of the knight) suggests that he has less training on the horse than the knight , and that his armor is significantly less protective.

5. Hmm. I don't know much about either, and I don't feel like looking it up.
If the Celt is Tyran, the Aztec wins.
Otherwise, probably the Celt . I mean, who wouldn't hesitate if they saw a blue guy charging?

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The Silent Assassin wins because he is awesome.
The world may now bow out in defeat.

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-Lenar Labs
What's Your Destiny?

Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable.

All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure.
Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #8
The pirate is predominantly a sailor, with some skill at combat, though most of that oriented around loading and firing a cannon. The ninja is an assassin. Ninja wins.

I think it's a toss up between the historical viking and the historical Spartan.

I don't have enough experience in the third competition to weigh in, though I will say that end-game creations are pretty crazy.

Whether the knight would beat the samurai would depend on whether a katana truly could saw through the full armor. I'm hazarding a guess that it can't - although the armor was certainly susceptible to piercing attacks, and a knight could always just get his bell rung enough with bludgeoning, slashing generally wasn't a problem. This is what makes the katana deadly, so if the samurai doesn't have that advantage, I think he's toast.

No idea on the last one. Both cultures toppled when faced with better organized invading empires. I'll give it to the Celts, owing to less susceptibility to European diseases.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #9
One Exile/Avernite from a standard four-member party is doomed. It'll depend on synergies that just aren't there. A singleton, though, can probably take that shaper. All that's really needed is some Avatar or Divine Warrior, or sufficient potions to keep up some invulnerability. The Avernite will wear down the limited stock of creations and then pound the shaper into submission.

—Alorael, who now wants to see some other matchups. Pirate vs. Viking would be a whole lot of fun, although the most likely result is back-slapping and taleswapping as the two try to drink each other under the table. In that contest, the Viking definitely wins.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #10
You can say what you want about a Shaper's creatures. But I'm going to summon enough Vahnatai Lords to wipe them all off the face of the earth...

EDIT: And with Mind Duel that Shaper won't be casting any spells...

[ Monday, September 17, 2007 07:11: Message edited by: Lt. Sullust ]

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Lt. Sullust
Quaere verum
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #11
quote:
Originally written by Question This Authority:

Pirate vs. Viking would be a whole lot of fun, although the most likely result is back-slapping and taleswapping as the two try to drink each other under the table. In that contest, the Viking definitely wins.
I dunno... are we talking an 18th century pirate? While the Viking certainly loves his mead, sailors in the 18th century typically were issued ridiculous amounts of grog every day - upwards of a pint that would then be cut with water. I think the pirate would give the viking a solid run for his money when it comes to imbibing.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #12
1. A stereotypical ninja is a highly trained assassin. A stereotypical pirate is a moderately trained sailor/bandit. The outcome is obvious.

2. Both were experts at fighting, trained from early childhood. However, Viking has the advantage of a thousand years of progress in weapons and armor design.

3. The question says nothing about creations, and most Shapers are nearly helpless without them, so Avernite wins.

If the Shaper is allowed to bring along his creations, Avernite might never get off more than a single round (which he will probably spend drinking potions) before being stunned to permanent immobility. However, as Khoth pointed out, a late-game Exile character could be made immortal by giving him 20 points of luck. So the fight with Exile character would end in a draw, as Shaper’s creations keep him permanently stunned, but can’t kill him.

4. Knight has a lance and far more experience fighting on horseback, so the Samurai has no chance. If the horses are removed from the equation, this becomes the question of whether Japanese swords could penetrate European armor. The real ones probably couldn’t, but stereotypical ones can cut through anything, so this would go to Samurai.

5. All other things being equal, Celts have much better equipment.

[ Monday, September 17, 2007 10:01: Message edited by: Zeviz ]

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Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #13
1- Where do they battle? If it's dark, the ninja wins, if it's on a boat the pirate wins, and ifit's on a boat and dark, the ninja wins but starves to death from lack of sailing skill.

2- Is this particular Viking a berzerker? If so, he wins, if not, It's more or less even odds. Though the Vikings did have more armor. And a religion that specially condoned fighting to the death.

3- The Shaper/Lifecrafter. Numbers over might any day.

4- The knight stereotypically has a lance. Since they're both on horseback, the knight wins, no contest.

5- Close contest, but Nalyd would have to say the Celt, due to superior weaponry.

[ Monday, September 17, 2007 11:36: Message edited by: Thoughts in Chaos ]

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #14
1. A ninja might be a skilled assassin, but the pirate has a gun. Assuming he's not to drunk to aim straight, the pirate wins.

2. Spartans have strong, round sheild, bronze armor, high quality bronze weaponry, and crazy societal skill. Vikings (stereotypically) have chainmail, low quality iron weaponry, and also have crazy societal skills. It's close, but the Spartan wins.

3. The Shapers would be able to create Drakons and whatnot to swarm, just as the Wizard does. The Wizard can summon strong powerful creations as well. The difference being the Wizard's summonings are temporary. Still, the Wizard has more powerful spells and could probably get the work done faster with his creations, and wins the fight.

4. With the bow that is so characteristic of the samurai, then they'd be able to get a few shots in. Now, that gives them the chance to inflict some damage on the knight, maybe even get a shot at the eyes if they're lucky. I'm going to take this and say that the knight lost his lance and they're now dismounted. The mighty sword of the knight finds a new head for it's collection, but the knight is definitly worse off because of it.

5. Frankly, I don't now much about Aztecs and only a bit more from the Celts. However, I thinkly I'll follow the concensus and go with the Celts for their superior weaponry, iron, long slashing swords.

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Fluffy Turtles of the World, Unite!
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Agent
Member # 1934
Profile Homepage #15
quote:
Originally written by Turtleking:

1. A ninja might be a skilled assassin, but the pirate has a gun. Assuming he's not to drunk to aim straight, the pirate wins.

Probably not. The traditional and guns had only one or two shots, and were highly inaccurate. It was also about this time that guns were introduced to Japan, so there would be a good chance that the ninja had at least seen on before.

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You acquire an item: Radio Free Foil
Posts: 1169 | Registered: Monday, September 23 2002 07:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #16
A lot of the pirate-ninja combat depends on IMAGE(http://www.olavsplates.com/foto/fin_alb642.jpg)

A new gimmick I'm working on. A celebratory image for each of my posts, assuming there is a decent image to be found. Better then making a celebratory thread for a milestone, atleast in my view.

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Fluffy Turtles of the World, Unite!
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #17
Except that celebratory milestones only come once in a while and can be easily ignored. No.

1. The pirate would likely be drunk, give away his position by saying "Arrr!" a lot, and be missing either an eye, hand, or leg. Ninja.

2. I lack a good reason to declare a winner here. Sorry.

3. It depends. If the Shaper knows the battle is coming, then he can create extra creations, buff them up, and easily win. If the Shaper gets ambushed, then he's toast.

4. A knight's armor kept them pretty safe. The samurai's weapon might be able to get past it, but the knight had a lance and lots of jousting practice. Knight.

5. Aztecs needed lots of prisoners to sacrifice, so would be inclined to capture instead of kill. Celts had no such inclination. Celt.

Dikiyoba.

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Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #18
How about this. I created a wall of force barriers around myself and cast quickfire. Being as I'm the only one who knows how to dispel barriers I'm safe. And that shaper isn't going to last very long...

[ Monday, September 17, 2007 17:44: Message edited by: Lt. Sullust ]

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Lt. Sullust
Quaere verum
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 4248
Profile #19
1. Pirate Vs. Ninja

Hmmm... drunken bandit versus a highly trained assasin? Oh, I know, Ninja!

2. Viking Vs. Spartan

The viking is surely an intimidating enemy, swinging his axe in mad bloodlust, but spartan's spear has more reach. Unless the viking manages to bash it aside, the battle could end quickly with the viking's less armored parts pierced by the spartan. Otherwise, the battle is quite even, but I'm going for the spartan this time.

3. Shaper Vs. Wizard

If the shaper is allowed his creations, then the wizard must be allowed his buffs. And afterwards it's no contest; the wizard will be nigh-invulnerable, having so much speed that he can probably act even before the nastiest high-level creations, and wielding so much firepower that he can probably cause serious damage to the whole opposing party in one turn. Sure, the creations can take it - but their puny little master can't. The wizard wins.

4. Samurai Vs. Knight

The european lance is, to my knowledge, longer than the japanese yari, so the knight has an advantage there. However, the samurai has a bow. Now, it is questionable whether his bow could do much harm to the heavily armored knight, but why should he be aiming for the rider? Of course, knights tended to armor their horses to some extent as well, but a well-aimed shot could cause the horse to tumble and after that the samurai would have the edge. Just for spite, I'll go for the japanese guy.

5. Aztec Vs. Celt

The celt would win the battle due to sheer spike-haired shamelesness. And even if the aztec managed to kill him, he would die of some nasty european disease afterwards.

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Life is a neverending carneval where everyone has multiple costumes. I just hope mine are pleasing to the eye.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
Profile #20
1. Ninja..they have those shuriken stuff, fancy acrobatics, and stealth..plus..some of them has a kyuubi demon inside of them..can Pirates seal a kyuubi demon inside them? No, they can't..

2. Spartans..Spartans can use the spear throw tactic, Vikings can't..and the Vikings would be awed at the Spartan's body armor..

3. Uhm..uhm..Avernum/Exile wins! They got this things called Traits, which buffed them to immortality, which Geneforge people didn't have..

4. Samurai..they got bows which can pierce through armor..plus the Knight won't kill him..cuz' the Samurai commits Hara-kiri if he(she?) is about to die..

5. Celt..c'mon..stone vs metal?

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Humans fight to enter insanity.
Are you Evil?
Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7557
Profile #21
1: Are you joking? Nija.

2: Spartan's were often described as the "perfect warriors". Spartans were trained from the day they were born to be nothing be soldiers. Things like art, music and school were not included. If it wasent to do with excersise or hitting something it wasent included. Then again the Viking has the advantage of iron and just possibly steel weapons, Spartan has at best Bronze plate. 50/50.

3: Wizard can level up to a good 100. Shaper has 40. Wizard can hit eight targets at once with most of his sopells, only one Shaper spell can do the same. Shaper energy rus out after a few castings, Wizard can last for hours. Shaper creations are constant but drain essance. Wizard can summon a half-dozen each turn with the arcane. Shaper can cast things like spine shield and war blessing. Wizard has Arcane Warrior, Arcane shield and beast ceremony. Wizard, hands down.

4: Samurai can shoot the knight or his horse. Once on foot the incredibly agile and well-trained Samuri can run absolute rings around the knight weiged down with plate armour. Samurai.

5: I'm going to toss a coin here.

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First person to call me a mercenary gets necromatized.
Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 5660
Profile #22
Hmmmmm.

1. Pirate vs Ninja. The boat terrain gives the pirate, a seafarer, and advantage. Neither one is particularly trained for "stand up" fighting, the ninja for assassination, and the Pirate for mugging. I would give the advantage to whomever spotted the other one first, which is likely to be the ninja.

2. Spartan vs Viking Beserker. Spartans were trained from birth, yes, but they fought in a 70 pound mass of bronze armor that left them barely able to move. Even Herodotus in his Histories admits that 1 on 1, the Spartan hoplites are really no better than any of the Persian elite soldiers, but in group combat they are invincible. I'd have to go with the viking here.

3. Exies vs Shaper. I'd have to go with the exiles here. Their ability to spam out spells that make them invulnerable, or antimagic clouds, means that they can stall the opposition while they win the slow/haste war. Once that is done, rain death arrows and flaming sword blows until death. Or lock them in with Force barriers and drop a quickfire spell :D

4.Samurai vs knight. Tricky, probably the hardest of the lot. Samurai could ride around and shoot, it is true, but they didn't have bodkin shafts, nor any real armor piercing arrows. The real question here is could (and would he even think of it) the samurai disable the knights horse? Once the knight gets off his mount, the Samurai is going to cut him to pieces. However, since knight's horses were usually also armored, (quite heavily) I think that sooner or later the knight is going to hit him with a lance or simply crash into him (do you know how much momentum a charging knight in steel armor has?!) and end the fight right then and there.

5. Aztec vs Celt. If the Aztec guy was fighting to capture, (they often were to gain sacrificial victims,) I think that the celt would win. Also, if the battle were conducted at range, the celt guy has a huge advantage, with real arrows and such. However, if things ever got to hand to hand, I would give the win to the Aztec. Go read the accounts of Cortez and his men. An Aztec warrior, armed with a Macanah (a kind of club with affixed obsidian blades) was able to decapitate a *horse*. One hit with that thing and the Celtic warrior will be pushing up daisies.

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"Violence never solved anything except ending slavery, fascism and communism."
Posts: 33 | Registered: Saturday, April 2 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 4248
Profile #23
quote:
Originally written by Ur_Vile_Wedge:

Do you know how much momentum a charging knight in steel armor has?

Hmmmm... a 80 kg guy wearing another 25 kilos of armor, plus the horse and its armor (I'm estimating 450 kilos here), all traveling at the speed of what, 50 km / h...?

Pretty much, I say. And all that force is concentrated to the tip of the lance...

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Life is a neverending carneval where everyone has multiple costumes. I just hope mine are pleasing to the eye.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Warrior
Member # 6714
Profile Homepage #24
25 kilos of armor? I don't think so. That's ludicrous. Why would someone wear 25 kilos of armor? Unless all knights were supermen who were much stronger than your average human, they could barely MOVE in that kind of armor, let alone actively fight!

Plus, do you realize how much steel it would take to create that much armor? It would take so much more than would be worth using!

It's that same stupid myth that leads to swords supposedly weighing twenty pounds when the largest, heaviest sword ever created--a Scottish claymore--weighed at most eight pounds. Now, I know why Jeff and many other game developers go for the weights they do in games: the idea is to keep you from running around with tons of weaponry, armor, and so on carried by your small party, but in reality, the armor and weapons simply did not weight that much.

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Well that signature was out of date, since I've not been here in forever.
Posts: 91 | Registered: Thursday, January 19 2006 08:00

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