Why You Suck
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 01:36
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Hypothesis: SW General sucks because of meta-posting. (THE PUNCHLINE: SPIDERWEB SOFTWARE stuff.) Topic derailments have always been the norm, but topic derailments for meta-posting are fairly new, and associated with a precipitous decline in what the average post actually has to say. You'd have to study for days to get acquainted with the collected lore of the new community, which exists (the lore, that is) for no apparent purpose but existing. I don't have the time, and neither does anyone worth listening to. The question: am I right or am I wrong? Has SW's meta-posting problem always been there? I am open to the possibility it has; that is why I pose this as a hypothesis. Your assignment, gentle reader, is twofold. First, come up with an acceptable definition of meta-posting. Second, observe a section of the boards, applying that definition and measuring the level of meta-posts over time. Once you have done so, determine thus whether SW is heavier or lighter in posts about the SW community than it was some time ago. (A year? Six months? The second Pied Piper? Your call.) Call this an observational study - a research project - whatever. But most of all, call it a challenge. Read up on what the community once was and, I pose, you will discover it was never as self-obsessed as it is now. (In fact, at present it's self-obsessed to the point of solipsism, which is always grating.) A general guideline: by 'meta-posting' I generally mean posts that are entirely, mostly, or primarily about the community itself, or about the post itself, or in general posts that exist to comment on their own context. I would suggest that unfair game include Aran's posting stats topics, landmark post topics, birthdays, and the lot (although if you want to do a topic headcount, that would be fine too - and in that case, those topics would count as meta-posts), because they are inherently meta and they have existed as long as I have. Nothing objectionable about them - it's just that they've hegemonized. If you'd care to object to the assertion that posts concerned primarily with their own origins rather than with any objective substance (what TM might call a 'post-modernist circle-jerk' if he liked hyphens and were present) make SW suck, here is also a good place to do so. I am prepared to defend my hypothesis on philosophical grounds, although I would gladly concede it to be wrong if serious research does not bear it out. [ Tuesday, February 20, 2007 01:50: Message edited by: Protocols of the Elders of Zion ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 02:54
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I'm not in the mood to run the analysis that Slarty likes to do, but some of the recent meta-postings are related to the increase in new members that occurs around new game release. You have some members that wish to indoctrinate the new members into the cult of Spiderweb. Having a new member like Infernal Flamming Muffin provides many opportunites to make meta-posts correcting noobish behavior and in general act in a superior Spiderweb manner. Most of these practioners are relatively new members, the 4th generation, that have been here under 2 years. This provides the many posts regarding correction of spelling and grammar, don't start too many topics (at least in general), the revival of game polls, and the general insults. It would take more effort than I want to spend to go back and compare the surge in meta-posts with the last few game releases. Also the last purge by JV would have eliminated some of this data from over 2 years ago so it would have to be done using Aran's archives. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 03:20
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I always did have a problem with the fact that this forum is up to it's neck in inside jokes that it must bring up as often as possible, and the fact that most of the people who have been here the longest feel they need to treat 'outsiders' like crap. But these things never stopped me from enjoying, say, the Geneforge forum. It fulfills its purpose in that I can go there to talk about the actual games, instead of listening to the meta-dribble that happens in general. Even then, I don't mind going there anyway just to antagonize people. You of all people should appreciate that, Alec. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 03:51
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quote:I don't treat you like crap because you're an outsider. I treat you like crap because you're only remotely interesting when you're angry. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 03:57
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It doesn't bother me that you insult me, Thuryl, I can take it. I just don't like the way your type scares away other people. Your jokes directed at me aren't even that good. Come on, Johnny Cash? I almost sprained my eyes they rolled so far back in my head. You seem like a smart guy, I just wish you'd say things to me that were worth a response. That goes for those like you as well, those that would rather make a stupid pun than contribute meaningfully to the conversation. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 04:39
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Stupid puns can be worth it sometimes and should not be immediately discarded as meaningless. It is the product of some attempt to be clever, and it seeks to be humorous. Alec's challenge is intriguing, and I have thought about the apparent rise in meta-posting as well. But of course I do not have the motivation to truly carry out Alec's desired longitudinal analysis. I currently feel that yes, the "established" Spiderweb community (and therefore its online forum culture) has been this self-centered for a while now. The starkest difference that catches my attention is that many years ago, this board used to continually have a thriving RP. Of course we still have some, but it just is not the same. Also, why are birthday topics meta-posts per se? They are more self-centered on the individual, not on the person's identity within the Spiderweb community. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8073
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 04:55
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I reject your assignment and say who gives a $^!#. What would the point of a message board inspired by a computer game possibly be? If you want to talk about something important, go somewhere else. Or post it here, but don't expect everyone to be interested. Most people find their way here because of a computer game. Speaking of topics that suck, isn't this topic a 'meta-posting' itself? So why should we waste any more time with it? WOULD THE MODERATOR PLEASE ERASE THIS TOPIC FOR OBJECTIONABLE META-POSTING MATERIAL? Finally, I believe you are being elitist. I say, let the people speak. Who cares if MFI, I mean IFM, creates some stupid topic? News flash, if you don’t have the time, don’t read it. (And if you have the time, feel free to post something equally inane in response.) ------------------ Ultimate Supreme Lord Jester of the Noobs [ Tuesday, February 20, 2007 04:59: Message edited by: Cylon ] Posts: 32 | Registered: Tuesday, February 13 2007 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 05:24
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quote:If you actually put effort into your posts on SW, you're wasting what little talent you have. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 06:54
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Alec is right because Alec is always right. I reject the challenge, though, not because it would be pointless to prove once again that Alec is right, but because if I had the time and gumption to actually conduct such a study, I'd rather use it to work on a scenario or something similar that would result in an end product that has a slight chance of maybe being worthy of the work that went into it a month from now. Instead I propose a new challenge. Write a ten page essay on the one thing that you most want to accomplish in your lifetime. Include short-term and long-term goals and a strategy or plan of action for carrying it through. Then follow your plan and make it happen. And if you have time and ambition enough, feel free to turn it into a scenario. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 07:33
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Let's all give up meta-posting in favor of meta-meta-posting. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 07:49
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quote:Thuryl is old-school. There was a time in the history of the community, long ago, when people were far too subtle to tell someone directly that his post was too stupid to deserve a reply. They would, instead, post the entire lyrics of "Mr. Blue Eyes" in French to indicate that there was nothing good to be said. When Thuryl posts something that seems trivial in reply to a post of yours, his action means more than you might think. It is worth noting, too, that, in a marked difference from the past, the ones who tend to be hardest on newbies these days are in fact newbies. People with member numbers far higher than mine were the ones giving Iffy a hard time in the most recent thread. As for meta-posting, well, the community has always talked about itself. The community has always had in-jokes (e.g. the trifecta of terror that I think consisted of Khoth, Saunders, and Riibu and had something to do with a large number of slimy things). You're just getting old, Alec. All these newbies of what I've called the fourth generation aren't very much like you. They don't make frequent reference to AbT (but rather Diki's story). They don't make reference to the Arena (but rather BoA). In short, their in-jokes aren't your in-jokes, so you feel that much more like an outsider, because that's what in-jokes do: they include some and exclude others. Well, my general feeling is that this is what the community is now. Take it or leave it. EDIT: Khoth, Saunders, and Arctic. I knew I had one of those people wrong. Well, two Brits and a Finn, anyway. [ Tuesday, February 20, 2007 21:07: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 09:21
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quote:Nice cop out, though a little cliche. I give it a 3. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 10:02
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quote:Fixed your thought. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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La Canaliste
Member # 5563
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 10:42
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quote:Is this some kind of veiled threat? Edit: it was Woofles rather than Riibu... but what do you mean by evil? [ Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:50: Message edited by: saunders ] -------------------- I am a mater of time and how . Deep down, you know you should have voted for Alcritas! Posts: 387 | Registered: Tuesday, March 1 2005 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 10:46
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quote:Most of what is discussed here is not conversation which merits meaningful response. Instead, you get puns. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 11:12
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quote:It's not veiled, but it's not mine. quote:Ya gotta hustle. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 11:40
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I'm in no position to judge whether or not posts about community lore has increased in the past few years, having only been here for one. However, I can say is that the horrendous signal-to-noise ratio that SpidWeb is experiencing right now is not entirely due to spam posts. While I acknowledge the possibility that some oldbies might derive orgasmic pleasure from maintaining a strict initiation process, I'm sure that nobody starts posting in General because they're attracted to this. All I can say is that I came to General after over three days of not checking it and found nothing of interest. If no original content arrives on General, I'm going to eventually fade away with no regrets. -------------------- A friend of mine once sent me a postcard with a picture of the entire planet Earth taken from space. On the back it said, "Wish you were here." - Steven Wright Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 11:49
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quote:Your tags would be missed. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 11:52
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Every community has some degree of fascination with and conversation about itself. That's normal. In jokes are the same: they're what happens when people spend time together, be it virtually or in person. Spiderweb may have more in-jokes than you'd like, and they may seem especially inane, but I don't think it's unusual. As far as excessive navel-gazing recently, it sounds right to me, but memory is a funny thing. Doing a study would demonstrate its truth or falsehood nicely, but I don't see what purpose it would serve. Meta-posts are a fad like everything else on Spiderweb, and it will come to an end whenever interest or tolerance wanes. —Alorael, who lumps this into the old complaint on signal to noise ratio. Right now there's not much interesting signal, so attention that might otherwise be directed elsewhere goes to the noise. It's not especially pleasant noise, silence isn't necessarily better. If you want interesting topics, start some. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 14:36
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quote: quote: [ Tuesday, February 20, 2007 14:40: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 16:45
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quote:Seconded. Honestly, every serious discussion that comes up devolves into a flame-fest so quickly that it almost isn't worth it to try anymore. Usually anyone who offers an opinion gets sniped (note: not meant to be an Alo reference, so don't try to pin that one on me) pretty damn quickly, and after a while that gets old. That, and as others have said, there are a ton of newbs around, which makes it hard to get much of anything done. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 17:39
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I personally like the board as it is. I like the debates that happen, I like Dikiyoba's story and I like the game discussions. And anyways, why would anyone actually spend the time to moniter a section of the board when they could be doing something else that was a lot funner. [ Tuesday, February 20, 2007 17:39: Message edited by: Kyrek ] Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3040
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 17:39
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quote:Unfortunately, meta-meta-meta-posting leads to infinite regress, as long as we also have an infinite quote tree. -------------------- 5.0.1.0.0.0.0.1.0... Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 22:04
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quote:Riibu is too young. You're thinking of another, slightly less manly Finn: Arctic. Also, the 'talking about itself' was entirely different. SW is fixated on itself now - I honestly have not encountered a topic that I can remember that did not contain long derailments into discussions about Alorael or you or, sometimes, me. This is meta-posting AT ITS BEST, by the way - the E!-esque stuff is better than the post-modern crap. quote:To be fair: no one ever made reference to AbT. No one on SW has heard of AbT; in fact, AbT never existed. (That is what Desp is for, and it is far more close-knit and as such has an excuse.) The equivalent would be, I don't know, News At 11, but it stuck to itself. quote:I get the in-jokes, they're just annoying because they're the only jokes anyone cares to make any more. There isn't a sense of blissful absurdity any more; all absurdity is carefully demarcated and vetted with the canon. The problem with in-jokes, Kel, is not that they create and isolate outsiders. The problem is that they're tedious and repetitive and after a while it's necessary to create new ones. Critical differences are at work here, by the way, between what you cite as old and what you cite as new. 'Diki's story' is worthless as a referent for humor (no offense, Diki) because it uses SW as a referent to begin with. It's all recursive and idiotic to hinge jokes on references to it. I suppose the next step would be some kind of asinine comic that makes nothing but references to 'Diki's story' and then people limit their humorous purview to that. quote:It can be changed, Kel. After all: it wasn't born this way, now was it? I suppose there's only one way to find out. When I next have the time (which won't be for a little bit, because I have a lot of work) I'm going to bang out an analysis myself. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. I think I'm right, which is why I hypothesized what I did: the level of meta-reference has at least doubled in the last three years. Care to propose a sampling design and definitions? I don't want to be accused of cherry-picking here. quote:'Anyone who offers an opinion gets sniped pretty damn quickly' is an unusually non-self-righteous way of putting how you're treating me. Of course, the difference between you - by which I mean both you, my dear brittle ephebophile, and your latest bemused catamite - and me is that I have had enough sniping that I do not particularly care. You're one to talk about being 'sniped'. I've been banned. Where are your scars, little man? [ Tuesday, February 20, 2007 22:08: Message edited by: Protocols of the Elders of Zion ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6821
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 22:18
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quote:You are aware that there are a lot of people who would disagree with you, right? You are also aware that this story was not written for you, right? Presumably you're also aware that not everyone would find Desp jokes funny, and I certainly hope that you understand that there's absolutely no reason why Dikiyoba should go out of her way to please you. Not everyone has the same sense of humor. And if you seriously think Dikiyoba's story is to become the only source of humor for SW, you're just paranoid. Posts: 363 | Registered: Wednesday, February 22 2006 08:00 |