Peer Review Process (was Evolution Stuff (was What is Religion, exactly?))

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AuthorTopic: Peer Review Process (was Evolution Stuff (was What is Religion, exactly?))
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
Profile #51
The human eye isn't too complex to have evolved, though! There's far more primitive eyes in the animal kingdom, and while it's difficult to discover from the fossil record how eyes evolved (they're a little squishy to calcify properly), we can conjecture fairly well how they used to work.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #52
I think Alec is right to point out that this story of Colonel Whittlesey and Psalm 91 is awfully bad theology. I'm tempted to call it 'voodoo religion', but that would be smearing voodoo (and I don't want to have to give good rum to Baron Samedi).

But I'd bet a beer that the story is sheer hooey. It's probably outright fiction, but it might be that Whittlesey commanded a rear echelon unit that would only need moderate luck to avoid casualties. Googling turns up only a few references with no more detail, on sites that are less than impressive as historical sources. Whereas other stories of supernatural intervention in WWI once circulated widely, and their spread has been studied by historians.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 6908
Profile #53
quote:
By Alo: I can't understand Einstein's work, and I can't even understand any of the work after and around him. I just accept the word of the physicists who say that it is both mathematically true and experimentally valid. How is this different from those who attest to the Bible's truth? Peer review and quality control, really. On this level, belief in science and belief in religion are quantitatively the same but qualitatively different. This holds true until we try to use information to get desired results, in which case science is useful and religion really isn't.
I can, since I've studied through it thoroughly. Still I cant explain the speed of light, which is not from Einstei theory. E.g. let's put a projector on a jet plane. Why on Earth the speed of light from this projector is the same as from any other, standing still? :)
As for useful results from religion - you can't know that untill you meet the creator. :)

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9 masks sing in a choir:
Gnome Dwarf Slith
Giant Troll Troglo
Human Nephil Vahnatai
"If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?"

radix: +2 nicothodes: +1 salmon:+1
Posts: 203 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #54
quote:

No, there's more than that it's how they fit togather. For example have you ever seen a six legged cow live on it's own?

This gal seems to be doing ok:
http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/03_Genetic/031013.6-leg.cow.html

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 6908
Profile #55
Waylander, you should have warned that picture is not for nervous p-p-p-people... :)

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9 masks sing in a choir:
Gnome Dwarf Slith
Giant Troll Troglo
Human Nephil Vahnatai
"If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?"

radix: +2 nicothodes: +1 salmon:+1
Posts: 203 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 1092
Profile Homepage #56
We have made a made a sheep from genetic engineering, so we must be going somewhere. If we can do that, why can't we make sense of a couple other little side projects?

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When you think you can't get any lower in life and hit rock bottom, God hands you a shovel.

Why should I say somthin intelligent when idiots like you make me look intelligent in the first place.
Posts: 615 | Registered: Friday, May 3 2002 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #57
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

quote:

No, there's more than that it's how they fit togather. For example have you ever seen a six legged cow live on it's own?

This gal seems to be doing ok:
http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/03_Genetic/031013.6-leg.cow.html

Interesting picture, although it looks to me like the extra legs might be from a partially formed conjoined twin rather than a genetic mutation.

Not that that's particularly relevant to the discussion, but you know how I enjoy showing off.

[ Wednesday, May 31, 2006 00:53: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 3441
Profile Homepage #58
There is a certain flatworm that makes frogs grow extra limbs. That picture reminded me of it.

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"As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein
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Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #59
http://www.fws.gov/contaminants/images/5_leg_frog.jpg

I saw that parasite on Animal Planet's Most Extreme. It causes frogs to grow extra limbs when they transform from tadpoles into frogs. It has a very complex life cycle. It was nuts. There was one frog they found with fifteen legs! They reason it does this is because it disables they frog, making it easier for birds, in whose intestines the parasite reproduces, to eat the frog.

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My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art
The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community
The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database
Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database
BoE Webring - Self explanatory
Polaris - Free porn here
Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too)
They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance
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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #60
According to Wikipedia, Col. Whittlesey was an American commander, and he lost more than half of his men in the Argonne Forest. No mention is made of Psalm 91.

In fact, Google turns up no references to Whittlesey and Psalm 91 with even marginal credibility.

—Alorael, who is surprised nobody bothered with the all-important Wikipedia basic fact check yet.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #61
quote:
No, but neither is there proof that there isn't a god. (There is more proof of divine intervention than you might think though.)
Care to give some "proof" that goes beyond anecdote? Also, who cares there isn't proof that there isn't a god? There is no proof there aren't gremlins and unicorns, but we don't believe in those.

As far as evolution, you continue to insult large bodies of scientific work by just ignoring them and dismissing it out of hand. You say there is little evidence for it, and you couldn't even address the two arguments I gave last time. You know what? No amount of evidence would convince you because you are unwilling to even learn the basic science behind what you are criticizing.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #62
I will now attempt to change the subject of conversation. I will attempt to connect the old and new with a part of a song from They Might Be Giants's "Lincoln" album, called "Where Your Eyes Don't Go".

"Where your eyes don't go, a filthy scarecrow waves his broomstick arms and does a parody of each unconscious thing you do.
When you turn around to look, it's gone behind you. On its face, it's wearing your confused expression where your eyes don't go."

That said, I vote that we ignore GremlinJoe until he gets a clue, and suggest that we discuss something else related to religion and science. That something is consciousness.

What exactly is it? Wikipedia is of no help, because nobody seems to know (I'm sure GremlinJoe thinks he knows, but he's completely incapable of providing or acknowledging any evidence of anything so it does the rest of us no good). It's one of those questions that science simply can't answer adequately, or if it can, nobody has figured out how. All we have is speculation.

I don't know if anyone remembers (Alec or Thuryl might, since I believe they were participants in the discussion), but years ago, when I was still a naive unquestioning Christian, there was a debate here about life, religion, evolution, religion, etc., much like this one. Djur and some others were talking about chemical reactions, when I said something along the lines of "this leads to this leads to a chemical reaction, but that chemical reaction can't just result in life. 'Life' has to be something." and someone said "Why can't life simply be the result of a chemical reaction?" and I had no answer. What I meant, however, was not life, which could easily be the result of a chemical reaction, but consciousness. Why is it that I have a mind, that I can see and hear and think and have all these things interact? How do physical phenomena like chemical reactions and electricity cause consciousness? The lack of a verifiable answer is the reason I refuse to hold religious or antireligious beliefs. I have some undefinable hopes that the truth isn't bad, but that's as far as it goes.

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My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art
The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community
The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database
Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database
BoE Webring - Self explanatory
Polaris - Free porn here
Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too)
They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance
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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #63
First of all, don’t post anything about micro evolution.
Second of all:
quote:
Care to give some "proof" that goes beyond anecdote? Also, who cares there isn't proof that there isn't a god? There is no proof there aren't gremlins and unicorns, but we don't believe in those.
I never said there was a God (But, now I do.)I feel the very nature of God would make it impossible to find proof. Other things “made up nature” does not prescribe that.
Third of all,
quote:
and you couldn't even address the two arguments I gave last time.
Actually at that time I didn’t have time to go look up all the different stuff it showed as the link was broke. However, I looked up some on my own and found I was partially in the wrong. The adding of genes happens, but when it does it is never helpful. That was what I was trying to point out about six legged cows.
Fourth of all:
quote:
You know what? No amount of evidence would convince you because you are unwilling to even learn the basic science behind what you are criticizing.
Again thou art wrong, I have studied science. Matter of fact I’m doing science this summer as a hobby. I just don’t have time to sit all day answering questions.
Fifth of all:
quote:
Why can't life simply be the result of a chemical reaction?" and I had no answer. What I meant, however, was not life, which could easily be the result of a chemical reaction, but consciousness. Why is it that I have a mind, that I can see and hear and think and have all these things interact? How do physical phenomena like chemical reactions and electricity cause consciousness?
Pal, sure life could’ve started by some chance. The chances are better that the CD with the instructions for my bike was made just because a lightning bolt hit someone’s trash can then melted it into a CD with the instructions already in it. Sure a spark hit some pool of chemicals. And suddenly life just started. Uh, Do you get the feeling something is wrong?

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #64
Ever heard of the Miller-Urey experiment?

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet
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You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #65
I knew it, I knew it, you would post.
It does sound vaugely fimiliar. But, go ahead and tell me about it. (Note: It is only vaugely fimiliar and nothing more.)

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #66
For Urey-Miller, read here or here

*i didn't say you don't study science, he said you haven't studies the specific science behind evolution. You clearly haven't.

The vast majority of mutations aren't beneficial. Actually, most have no real effect. Once in a while, though, a mutation is beneficial, or the result of many neutral mutations is beneficial. That's evolutionary "progress" (even though progress is the wrong word, really).

There are a number of hypotheses for how life began. None of them are accepted yet. All of them have some merit and some problems. None of them involve sparks suddenly starting life.

—Alorael, who thinks there is a misconception about implausibility. The spontaneous beginning of life isn't likely. On the other hand, it's likely enough that given millions of years and a proper environment it can and apparently did happen. Some kind of lightning-strike alchemy forming a CD with information on it is literally impossible. (A CD and its contents are probably more complex than early life, too.)

[ Wednesday, May 31, 2006 17:23: Message edited by: Manual Remailer ]
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #67
quote:
*i didn't say you don't study science, he said you haven't studies the specific science behind evolution. You clearly haven't.

True, I'm a few years behind. Yes, I'm still getting into the details of evolution so I'm might have some misunderstanding with it.
quote:
The vast majority of mutations aren't beneficial. Actually, most have no real effect. Once in a while, though, a mutation is beneficial, or the result of many neutral mutations is beneficial. That's evolutionary "progress" (even though progress is the wrong word, really).

I asked that micro evolution be dropped. As there is no one here doubting it. Also that your driving me insane with that. (What precious little sanity I have left.)
quote:
There are a number of hypotheses for how life began. None of them are accepted yet. All of them have some merit and some problems. None of them involve sparks suddenly starting life.

I was not trying to say how it happend.
quote:
it can and apparently did happen.
Thankyou that made me feel better.
quote:
Some kind of lightning-strike alchemy forming a CD with information on it is literally impossible.
Oh, yes it's possible...
quote:
A CD and its contents are probably more complex than early life, too.
Actually even the simplist life forms known to man are far more complex than a CD.

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #68
If I have it right, the simplest possible form of life required for evolution to occur must be able to:

a) Reproduce.

b) Gain sustenance from raw minerals/sunlight/whatever, as opposed to gaining it from other organisms (since we're talking the very first life here).

If you could build a robot that could do those two things, you would be pretty damn clever. I think it's fair to say that such an organism would be a heck of a lot more complicated than a CD.

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 34
Profile Homepage #69
There's also a kind of tiny hookworm that lives on the ground. When you walk on it barefoot, it "hooks" onto the soles of your feet and burrows into your skin (apparently, there are over 3,000 worms in the soles of your feet right now, on average). From there it keeps on burrowing until it reaches your bloodstream. Then it surfs the crimson wave until it reaches your lungs, whereupon it finds its way back out of the bloodstream and into your lung tissue, where it roosts. Eventually, enough worms can accumulate that you can become severely sick and die of some sort of asphyxiation or just plain ol' injury-induced death. So always wear your shoes, kids.

There's also a city in Germany called Worms. Yummy.

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Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck.

'Spiderweb Software' anagrammmed: 'Word-bereft A**wipe'
Posts: 702 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #70
Where do you think macroevolution comes from? Mutate enough and you get a new species. Mutate even more and you get a new species that doesn't even resemble the original species. Microevolution does not necessarily involve mutation at all, because simple changes in allele frequency can happen much faster.

A lightning strike cannot turn garbage into a CD because most garbage doesn't contain the elements required to make a CD. Turning one element into another is either alchemy or radioactive decay. The latter doesn't apply and the former doesn't work. While I'll concede that a CD is simpler than any organism, a CD with coherent instructions on it is more complex, largely because it can't evolve. All in all, "complexity" is so vague and these comparisons so apples to oranges that I think we've lost all semblance of meaning.

Technically, life doesn't have to have a source for sustenance. All evolution requires is replication. It's just that it's hard to replicate without ingesting material for replication and energy with which to do it.

—Alorael, who doesn't specialize in life manufacturing. His understanding is that it's quite doable with a small caveat: nobody has tools fine enough to do the construction work. That's still not useful, though, because we can also assemble CDs and it's pretty clear that there is an irreducible complexity problem there.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #71
Microevolution and macroevolution are the same thing: one is just more of the same thing than the other. Only evolution deniers draw a distinction between them.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #72
quote:
Originally written by Robinator, #034:

There's also a city in Germany called Worms. Yummy.
IMAGE(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/61/Luther46c.jpg)

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #73
He sure doesn't look like he's been living on a diet of worms.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #74
quote:
Originally written by Manual Remailer:

The vast majority of mutations aren't beneficial. Actually, most have no real effect. Once in a while, though, a mutation is beneficial, or the result of many neutral mutations is beneficial.
Alorael, if I may extend this line of thought.

It isn't particularly unusual to mutate. What is unusual is to mutate in a manner which gives an unusual competitive reproductive advantage. The most obvious advantage would be survival to the appropriate age class.
The mutation which allows digestion of blue-green algae may become useful, but is not likely to become standard human genetic material any time soon.

My new opinion on religion : Don't.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #75
quote:
There's also a city in Germany called Worms. Yummy.
Ah yes, but that doesn't have anything to do with worms. That name goes back to celtic "Bormotomagus=Land of the many waters"; when "B" changed to "W" and germanic tribes settled in the region, the name was partly translated to "Wormazfeld" = "Wormatia" in its latinised version and finally got abbriged to "Worms".

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00

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