Peer Review Process (was Evolution Stuff (was What is Religion, exactly?))

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AuthorTopic: Peer Review Process (was Evolution Stuff (was What is Religion, exactly?))
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quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by The Creator:

quote:
But photosynthesis requires a complex mechanism (clorophyl {sp?} and a cell capable of utilizing it) which was my argument.
Chlorophyll.

Dikiyoba.

Chloroplasts do the work (they are organelles) and chlorophyll is a pigment that facilitates the switch from light energy (photon) to chemical energy (in ATP and NADPH). I guess I don't see it as particularly complex, 6 CO2 + 12 H2O + ATP + NADPH -> C6H12O6 + 6 O2 + 6 H2O is a sample transaction that takes place in only two steps.

Perhaps Thuryl, stareye, or SoT could give you some examples that fix the definition of complex more closely, while staying clear of the unknown or unclear.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


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You can ignore the complex mechanism part if you like. Just give me an example of organisation arising without the involvement of life or human design.

quote:
That particular criticism of evolution is new to me. IDers make a big deal of ID not being evolution, and the theory of evolution very obviously makes predictions, some of which have been verified and some of which are a little more difficult on a limited timescale but that haven't ever been contradicted.

—Alorael, who is splitting hairs a bit with the last statement. ID denies evolution, but it doesn't actually provide evidence of evolution not happening. It simply provides evidence (using the term loosely) of evolution not being feasible.
A Critique of Douglas Theobald’s “29 Evidences for Macroevolution” deals with many of what are considered to be predictions of evolution. More on this later, time permitting.

Edit: Gah! Said the opposite of what I meant.

[ Thursday, June 01, 2006 16:40: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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quote:
Originally written by The Creator:

You can ignore the complex mechanism part if you like. Just give me an example of organisation arising without the involvement of life or human design.

DeBeers.

Edit 1 - Ice.

Two separate examples that share a common theme.

Edit 2 - Hurricane.

Tornado.

Really, this is ridiculously easy. I'll have to stop before I start chuckling.

Edit 3 - The snowflake, although I wouldn't expect you to have firsthand knowledge of that little intricacy.

[ Thursday, June 01, 2006 16:54: Message edited by: Indifferent Salmon ]

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


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quote:
Originally written by The Creator:

You can ignore the complex mechanism part if you like. Just give me an example of organisation arising without the involvement of life or human design.
Magnetism comes to mind. Given proper circumstances, the electron spins in a metal (usually a metal, anyway) will line up precisely. This is a highly organized state that, if plopped in a vacuum for an eternity, will eventually cease. Humans make magnets, but planets make magnets, too, without any sort of life or human design necessarily involved.

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The examples given so far are of order rather than organisation.

For those of you who apparently didn't read my earlier posts:
“‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content ... Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’” [Jeffrey S. Wicken, The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion, Journal of Theoretical Biology, Vol. 77 (April 1979), p. 349]

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The distinction is qualitative, not quantitative, no? I'd call a hurricane "organized" by that definition. There are very clear components that are each complex in themselves.

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quote:
Originally written by The Creator:

The examples given so far are of order rather than organisation.

For those of you who apparently didn't read my earlier posts:
“‘Organized’ systems are to be carefully distinguished from ‘ordered’ systems. Neither kind of system is ‘random,’ but whereas ordered systems are generated according to simple algorithms and therefore lack complexity, organized systems must be assembled element by element according to an external ‘wiring diagram’ with a high information content ... Organization, then, is functional complexity and carries information. It is non-random by design or by selection, rather than by the a priori necessity of crystallographic ‘order.’” [Jeffrey S. Wicken, The Generation of Complexity in Evolution: A Thermodynamic and Information-Theoretical Discussion, Journal of Theoretical Biology, Vol. 77 (April 1979), p. 349]

The folks at the National Hurricane Center in Florida will be ecstatic to hear that you have figured out hurricanes lack complexity. But then again, the author may just be changing conventional definitions to fit a hypothesis that requires it, by design.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


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Not that I know a lot about the structure of hurricanes, but I think that the patterns (order) found in them are repeatitions of a theme (in a fractal manner), in which case it would be a form of crystallographic order.

However, I will investigate this in more depth.

Edit: A brief look around indicates that hurricanes are prime examples of 'chaotic' systems. 'Chaotic' systems, as I understand them, can be said to have complex behavior arising from (relatively) simple algorithims. Probably an oversimplification, but unless it can be shown that 'chaotic' systems are organised my case stands.

[ Thursday, June 01, 2006 17:55: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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I suspect that you will also find specific information about a carbon structure if it has formed a diamond. For example, nearby mineral types, amount of pressure involved in the formation, etc. Likewise, ice is of many types, depending on the initial conditions. Information is all around us, and in many forms, if we choose to see it rather than discount it.

Darwin was never a marketeer of his theory of the origin of the species to the extent that certain present day individuals are marketing ID. That, in and of itself, is the bit that worries a lot of people. There may not be a lot of substance within the ID argument, but with the right Madison Avenue glitz it will be difficult to convince a lot of people otherwise.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


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A butterfly, specifically, the atmospheric state generated by the flapping of said butterfly's wings.

[ Thursday, June 01, 2006 17:54: Message edited by: Lt. Sullust ]

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Lt. Sullust
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quote:
Originally written by Lt. Sullust:

A butterfly, specifically, the atmospheric state generated by the flapping of said butterfly's wings.
The same could be said for the origins of a discussion on evolution. It started with a keyboard clicking in Australia, and has spread across the entire globe. :P

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


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quote:
Originally written by The Creator:

'Chaotic' systems, as I understand them, can be said to have complex behavior arising from (relatively) simple algorithims.
Complex behavior arising from relatively simple algorithms. How is this different from evolution, again?

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

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n-Qubits

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Lt. Sullust
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Q-bert was a cool arcade game.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

quote:
Originally written by The Creator:

'Chaotic' systems, as I understand them, can be said to have complex behavior arising from (relatively) simple algorithims.
Complex behavior arising from relatively simple algorithms. How is this different from evolution, again?

It may not be, but we are looking for examples of organised (not just complex) structures arising without design. If there is not evidence of this happening, then surely we should be sceptical of any theory that says that it does.

quote:
I suspect that you will also find specific information about a carbon structure if it has formed a diamond. For example, nearby mineral types, amount of pressure involved in the formation, etc. Likewise, ice is of many types, depending on the initial conditions. Information is all around us, and in many forms, if we choose to see it rather than discount it.
The crystals you describe are prime examples of order not organisation. Please provide an example of organisation arising without design.

quote:
Darwin was never a marketeer of his theory of the origin of the species to the extent that certain present day individuals are marketing ID. That, in and of itself, is the bit that worries a lot of people. There may not be a lot of substance within the ID argument, but with the right Madison Avenue glitz it will be difficult to convince a lot of people otherwise.
There are evolutionists marketing evolution just as hard or harder than IDers. Richard Dawkins and Ian Plimer come to mind.

[ Thursday, June 01, 2006 19:02: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Finally the topic goes somewhere pleasant. It has evolved, you might say.

The Simpsons arcade game was always a favorite. It took a long time to beat, but it was very doable, and it tended to become a big collaborative event. I like things that encourage camraderie among complete strangers for good reasons, like beating up on animated sprites.

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quote:
Originally written by The Creator:

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

quote:
Originally written by The Creator:

'Chaotic' systems, as I understand them, can be said to have complex behavior arising from (relatively) simple algorithims.
Complex behavior arising from relatively simple algorithms. How is this different from evolution, again?

It may not be, but we are looking for examples of organised (not just complex) structures arising without design. If there is not evidence of this happening, then surely we should be sceptical of any theory that says that it does.

Actually, now it sounds like you are looking for evidence of evolution without life, and then decrying evolution for lack of evidence.

Shame on you. :rolleyes:

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


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Abiogenesis is the idea that an organised structure (life) could arise from less organised structures without design. This was supposed to happen without life. It should be just as possible for organisation to arise now as it was then. If it has never been observed why should we belive it has occured? Science is supposed to involve evidence.

Edit: slight rephrasing.

[ Thursday, June 01, 2006 19:18: Message edited by: The Creator ]

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Creator: If you think that hurricanes are not organized because their algorithms are not complex enough, then I may have understood the relevance of this to evolution. The algorithms in evolution are simple enough.

I think that you're saying that evolution creates a result that looks like a complex plan put into effect, but I would object that it does so with simple patterns. Hurricanes also create a result that looks like a complex plan put into effect, and they do so with simple patterns.

EDIT: As far as life arising: we're not talking about the origin of life. That's not established science; work is still being done in that area. We're talking about the progression of life after it began (evolution).

[ Thursday, June 01, 2006 19:23: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
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I think if life were to look like a complex plan, but in fact be based on simple patterns, then yes evolution would be reasonable. But life is not the result of simple patterns. It is organised, not just ordered.

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Intraspecies and interspecies organ donation may suggest that life (simple, cellular life) is not complex. True, the human being is complex as it an amalgam of many organs, but each of those organs can be autonomous. If you are talking about human consciousness, that is a different thing and has long been the subject of philosophers, not evolutionary biologists.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


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Haven't read the whole thread and stuff, but isn't one distinction between ID and Creationism that ID does not necessarily conflict with evolution, and be more concerned with the origin of life in the first place?

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With a flap of his wings,
the butterfly hastens the wind.


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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

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The ID arguement that an organized system such as an eye could not have evolved is slowly being refuted. Research is showing that intermediate steps have occurred with slightly different functions than the final evolved form. That evolution can't show all the steps now does not make it wrong, it is just incomplete.

What has been shown is an existing systems with a specific function becomes modified through mutatiton into having a different system with a new function. The most recent example is flaggelation in simple organisms as a form of locomotion.

While the third law of thermodynamics states that the overall system will tend to disorder, there is nothing to prevent localized order from occuring. So small groups of molecules can combine to form more complex molecules and these can combine to form more compex and ordered items. It has been shown that amino acids can form in the presence of certain clays to form the building blocks of DNA. You get enough and the more complex DNA forms by itself. Given enough time the more ordered system of a cell can form.
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quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

Haven't read the whole thread and stuff, but isn't one distinction between ID and Creationism that ID does not necessarily conflict with evolution, and be more concerned with the origin of life in the first place?
Not usually, no. Traditionally, ID also denies that evolution beyond the barest gene changes actually takes place, and it also traditionally denies that evolution is responsible for the diversity of life as it appears on the planet today. That is, normally, intelligent design says that life was designed as we see it today.

However, there's nothing that prevents someone from saying that the initial spark of life was provided by a designer — the origin of life was designed but the evolutionary process still occurred from there — and calling that "intelligent design" also, as far as I know. It's not what ID advocates usually argue, and I don't think it would really constitute a scientific theory either — unless you could actually find the intelligent designers — but it'd be a little less frustrating.

Creator (not Ash): I think you'd better explain the way in which hurricanes are the result of simple patterns in a way that life forms are not. Life forms exhibit complexity, as do hurricanes. Life forms are the manifestations of complex starting states, as are hurricanes. Life forms manifest these complex starting states according to (relatively) simple rules, as do hurricanes. These starting states for life forms develop according to (relatively) simple rules, as do the ones for hurricanes.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

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