How do we pronounce...

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AuthorTopic: How do we pronounce...
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #25
quote:
Originally written by Archmagi Micael:



Archmagi Micael
ARCH-MAY-GEE ME-KALE
- Archmagi Micael

For future reference, you pronounce magi incorrectly. It should be the i sound as in pie at the end.

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Cogito Ergo Sum
Polaris
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #26
Linguists somehow believe they have reconstructed how actual ancient Romans pronounced their Latin.

(I don't know much about how this is done, except that I don't think it relies much at all on Stargate-style theories of phonetic change over time. One important technique is to scan the ancient literature for references to the funny accents of foreigners/yokels/idiots etc. Such comments often have implications for how things were supposed to be pronounced. Maybe Kelandon can tell us more about how this works?)

Anyway, I've been taught that the Romans would have said MAH-GEE (with a hard G). It's plural, by the way. The Latin singular is magus.

That having been said, I believe Micael can pronounce his moniker any old way he wants, and it will be polite of us to follow him. I am still trying to adapt to KelANdon.

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Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #27
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Linguists somehow believe they have reconstructed how actual ancient Romans pronounced their Latin.

(I don't know much about how this is done, except that I don't think it relies much at all on Stargate-style theories of phonetic change over time. One important technique is to scan the ancient literature for references to the funny accents of foreigners/yokels/idiots etc. Such comments often have implications for how things were supposed to be pronounced. Maybe Kelandon can tell us more about how this works?)

I don't know as much about this as I should, but apparently the main source is the pronunciation of the Romance languages. There are certain standard sound changes — Grimm's Law, that sort of thing — that one uses to reconstruct how an original language must've sounded from the differing pronunciations of the descendant languages.

Then there are the ancient grammarians, who wrote a fair amount on how each letter was supposed to be pronounced (which is less useful than it sounds, but more than nothing).

Transliteration is also very useful — Romans and Greeks used different alphabets, but they wrote a number of the same words, particularly names. Transliteration is useful in two ways: first, from the formal writings, to get an idea of what the formal grammarians and ancient linguists thought the relationships between the languages were — there is a standard Latin way of transliterating Greek, and it's not quite the same as the standard English way of doing it — and second, from graffiti (of which there is a lot still in existence, particularly in Pompeii), to see what the mis-spellings and improper pronunciations were, which gives an idea of the actual pronunciation.

The result being that we have enough information that we actually could speak Latin and sound like a native speaker if we wanted. Ancient Greek is a bit harder to reconstruct for various reasons, and other languages can be even worse — apparently Classical Chinese presents an interesting problem, because the writing system is not phonetic — but we actually can do a fair bit with this.

(Incidentally, this is all off the top of my head. I think the Perseus Classics site may have something good on this, or Google may be able to track something good down. And, of course, the standard work is Sidney Allen's Vox Latina.)

And yes, in Classical Latin, it's MAHG-ee, stress on the first syllable, but with a long I in the second syllable, so it's held for a beat and a half compared to the single beat of the first syllable. The vowels are pronounced more or less with the quality of a Spanish or Italian vowel.

Or, if you wanted to go the way of Church Latin (which is easier but still semi-authentic), it's MAH-JEE, pronunced as if it were Italian.

Or for full-on Anglicization (ew), it's MAG-eye, pronounced like English.

EDIT: And yes, it's a plural, and yes, we've been over this.

[ Friday, June 10, 2005 09:01: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #28
Since my moniker is written, not spoken, I don't really care about how Alorael is pronounced except for a few things.

The A comes before the E. There is no reason for it to be pronounced as Spanish "real" (ray-AHL).

That "ae" could be an Old English ash (æ), which would be pronounced much like the A in hat. A-lo-ral. Or it could be like the æ that British seem so fond of and yield A-lo-reel. Other sources seem to pronounce ae as a long A sound as in wait, so even A-lo-rail is possible. If it's not a single vowel sound or dipthong, A-lo-reye-el or A-lo-ray-el are both possibilities.

Then there's the first two syllables. The first A can be either that ash sound that seems peculiar to the English language (as far as I know) or as a more romance ah. The second syllable I always think of as a long O as in boat).

So there you go. All the material you need for pronouncing Alorael in any number of ways!

—Alorael, who was intrigued when someone mentioned that his name sounds angelic. Yep, that -el ending, meaning "of God" is a common theme in angels' names. So what's the first part? Well, Aleph resh lamed doesn't seem to be any Hebrew root, but several dubious sources they seem to summon the power of protection according to Kabbalah. So Alorael could be stretched to mean angel of protection. Next time we discuss the numerological significance of 335!
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #29
I imagine mine is the hardest of all. V C H I guess it depends on how you pronounce each individual letter. But how much variation could there be.

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Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #30
vuch :P

eh/ay-low-ray-ell. Everyone needs to pronounce it exactly like that.

Someone needs to come up with a weird pronounciation for their name and insist it be pronounced like the say. Like, Smoked Salmon could be:

smo-kudd sal-mun

[ Friday, June 10, 2005 15:52: Message edited by: BF7 ]

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #31
It would be a lot easier if people simply posted recordings of their names being pronounced by them.

PS As for my name, it's pronounced exactly as written. (Stress on second syllable.) The only difficulty is that 'e' represents a Russian sound half way between 'e' in 'me' and 'e' in 'pen'.

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Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 3479
Profile #32
I think you guys can get this one. Uhn-ded KO-gar, easy enough?
Posts: 51 | Registered: Tuesday, September 23 2003 07:00
La Canaliste
Member # 5563
Profile #33
quote:
Originally written by Icshi:


This topic reminds me of some of the upperclass English surnames that are so messed up it's impossible to guess how they're pronounced—you either know how to say them, or you don't. Featherstonehaugh being pronounced "Fanshaw" for instance. (An exaggerated example created by P.G. Wodehouse, unless I'm much mistaken, but there are some reason English surnames that are about that bad!)

Sadly, that example is real.

So, here's a potted explanation:

Firstly, you didn't get a surname unless you were upperclass, if by that you mean a family name. If you were a general peasant type then "John" was enough, unles there were two Johns, in which case you might be "Big John" or "Little John" or "John the smith" or "John from by the bridge" or so on. It was a personal nickname, not one you passed on.

So, here you are, an upperclass person with a family name. It gets written down on a document or a map, normally in connection with some legal matter, often concerning property. The way it's written down, that's the way it's written. Over time, with the shifts in language, the vowels change, syllables get dropped, but you have a document that shows how your name is written. Look, you can see, it's written here. That's how you write my name. Well, the document is in Latin, or French, so the spelling is fancy. I can't read anyhow: I'm a nobleman who hires people to do these things!

Summary: the names were written down and their spelling was frozen a long time ago. The pronunciation has evolved over time, like that of any word.

Oh, and anybody who can accept the pronunciations of Kansas and Arkansas as logical can lay off Brit placenames.

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Posts: 387 | Registered: Tuesday, March 1 2005 08:00
Agent
Member # 1558
Profile #34
What's wrong with the pronunciation of Kansas?

Arkansas has the last "s" hidden, this is simple compared to some Pom crazyness.

BTW, what is the origins of the name "Arkansas" anyway?

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I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing
Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything
About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight
We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight
The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight

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Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 5940
Profile #35
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Posts: 9 | Registered: Saturday, June 11 2005 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #36
I'm trying to figure out which dialect of English would stress "valiant" on the second syllable. Do the Brits do this?

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #37
I don't think they do, Kel.

I still don't know how to pronounce Worcestershire Sauce correctly. Following what I've picked up from learning to pronounce "Leicester" correctly, I figure it would be something like "worstershire sauce." Still a bit confusing to this American, though. :)
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5886
Profile #38
Ara-NAY-a Heer-SU-ta

Open your mind to the absolute power of differential geometry. :P

[ Saturday, June 11, 2005 06:27: Message edited by: Aranea Hirsuta ]

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Posts: 52 | Registered: Friday, June 3 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #39
quote:
Originally written by An Upright stranger:

BTW, what is the origins of the name "Arkansas" anyway?
I can only assume it's French. There's no other good explanation for a silent S at the end of a word.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
Profile Homepage #40
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by An Upright stranger:

BTW, what is the origins of the name "Arkansas" anyway?
I can only assume it's French. There's no other good explanation for a silent S at the end of a word.

It's a French interpretation for an Indian word that has little relation to the actual place.

The same word was used as the root of Kansas, I believe, but the French never disambiguated Kansas from the rest of outer Louisiana, and the Americans did, so they got to figure out how to pronounce it.

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Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #41
quote:
Originally written by Andrew Miller:

I still don't know how to pronounce Worcestershire Sauce correctly.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?bo ok=Dictionary&va=worcestershire+sauce&x=11&y=14
Interestingly, George Washington Carver apparently found a way to make it from peanuts. Also interestingly, according to the bottle in my refrigerator, it contains anchovies.

[ Monday, June 13, 2005 15:04: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ]

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Infiltrator
Member # 5567
Profile Homepage #42
Jayd-Woolf

Wool as in sheep's wool.

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Posts: 576 | Registered: Wednesday, March 2 2005 08:00
Agent
Member # 618
Profile Homepage #43
Amm'i'teel
(Standard phonetic i)

Worcestershire sauce is usually pronounced, with an English standard accent, something along the lines of: W'uss'ter'sher saw'ss

With the w as a standard phonetic w and the uss as in "wuss". The shire part varies across England, anyway, so there's never any hard feelings about that not being right. :)

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Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 1207
Profile #44
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Linguists somehow believe they have reconstructed how actual ancient Romans pronounced their Latin.

(I don't know much about how this is done, except that I don't think it relies much at all on Stargate-style theories of phonetic change over time. One important technique is to scan the ancient literature for references to the funny accents of foreigners/yokels/idiots etc. Such comments often have implications for how things were supposed to be pronounced. Maybe Kelandon can tell us more about how this works?)

I don't know as much about this as I should, but apparently the main source is the pronunciation of the Romance languages. There are certain standard sound changes — Grimm's Law, that sort of thing — that one uses to reconstruct how an original language must've sounded from the differing pronunciations of the descendant languages.

Grimm's Law applies to Germanic languages (like English), not Romance. That's what makes there a <p> in Latin <pater> corrseponding to English <f> in <father>, and the <th> matches up with the <t> in those two words as well. You probably knew that, no doubt, but you certainly implied that it was a rule applying to Romance languages.

I don't care how people pronounce my name. If you want to emphasise the <ø> and pronounce it like they do in Scandinavian languages, go right ahead. If you have no idea how that's pronounced, just make it an ordinary o-sound. I don't think there's any point caring since we're never going to meet in person or speak to each other, most likely.
Jelly, however, is of course an English word and should be pronounced thus.
If I ever get around to changing my screenname to "finlay", which is my name and the name I use on other boards, pronounce it with an "ay" sound and not an "ee" sound, please. But again it would never matter unless we met in person, which I have no doubt probably won't.

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Posts: 316 | Registered: Saturday, May 25 2002 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #45
quote:
Originally written by Jelly:

Grimm's Law applies to Germanic languages (like English), not Romance. That's what makes there a <p> in Latin <pater> corrseponding to English <f> in <father>, and the <th> matches up with the <t> in those two words as well. You probably knew that, no doubt, but you certainly implied that it was a rule applying to Romance languages.
There are two things that we mean when we say Grimm's Law: the thing that Grimm actually came up with, which only applies to Germanic languages; and a broader set of sound correspondences in all Indo-European languages (and the standard sound changes to be derived from those). It's a lot like how Newtonian physics covers a lot more than Newton ever personally wrote about.

There is no other term for the sound changes from proto-Indo-European to Latin or from Latin to the Romance languages as far as I know, so I said Grimm's Law.

[ Sunday, June 12, 2005 08:17: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

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The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #46
Not to be confused with grim slaw, which is the irridescent stuff you get at KFC. Soylent green is made of chickens!

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Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 5450
Profile Homepage #47
I simply pronounce Worcestershire as 'War-cest-uh-shire'. Worcestershire is a place in the UK, is it not? I think its something like that.

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Polaris
Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #48
Well, then you'll look like an idiot if you mention it to anyone who knows how to pronounce it.
I edited my previous post. It had an incomplete URL. Here's the full URL: http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=worces tershire+sauce&x=11&y=14
If you click on the red speaker images, it will play aloud two different ways to pronounce it.

[ Monday, June 13, 2005 15:07: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ]

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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #49
Shockingly, the "Worcestershire" in Worcestershire sauce is pronounced the way it is because the names of the English county of Worcestershire, and of the city of Worcester therein, are pronounced as though "orce" were "oo".

You pronounce the Worcester in Massachusetts as "Wusstah". Then ask Nohm for a beeh.

[ Monday, June 13, 2005 15:25: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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