THE GREAT DEBATE
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 10:35
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quote:I already admitted that this was an invalid argument. quote:I said that it was better for them that they are domesticated. This argument is not irrelevant. [ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:36: Message edited by: Mind ] Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 10:39
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[quote=Mind] This issue is hasn't been contradicted yet: quote:I didn't comment on this because it is irrelevant. They are given longer lives, but what does that have to do with them dying? quote:As I said I don't have a problem with the animals being killed for food, but many beings suffering doesn't justify causing another to suffer. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 995
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 10:42
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earlier Dolphin stated something about "girls are maturing at age 12" and attributed this to estrogen from cows. I thought that was the natural age for puberty except when one is undernourished? at least, as little as a century ago, when 14 year olds were considered adult. only this last century have we tried to extend the concept of childhood far beyond its natural term. --- but, to cows --- cows like to live on the same kind of land we like to live on. I posit that there are only cows still in existence because we enjoy their tasty meat. if we did not, there would be two of them in a zoo in New Jersey, and that's about it. is it especially egomaniacal to say, "you owe your mere existence to our whim, so perhaps you should consider yourself lucky for what time you do get and nevermind if we also have the whim to end your days"? Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 10:48
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quote:15-16 is preferable, that way the body is able to mature before becoming pregnant. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 10:51
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I thought that the ability to become pregnant was pretty indicative of physical maturity in women. Isn't this so? Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the rate of birth defects is for very young mothers versus those in the 18-22 age range? Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 10:58
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Well yeah, it is the indicator of maturity, but certain things cause this to happen before the body would normally be ready to mature. Reproductive development slows (or stops) other aspects of growth. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 10:58
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quote:Don't forget milk. -------------------- The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) Famous Last Words - A local pop-punk band They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 11:04
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quote:I apologize for my ignorance, but what other aspects of growth are slowed or stopped? Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 11:16
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The girls I know who had periods at 12 and 13 stopped growing. They seem to develop emotionally slower as well. Notably not the strongest argument, but the comment comes from interacting with others more than science. I'm sure the information can be found, but I don't care to search for it. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 995
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 11:20
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people have been developing slower emotionally ever since we invented the twin concepts of of "adulthood at 18" and "mandatory school" in early 20th century. back when people were treated like adults, they rose to expectations. and literacy rates (as measured by people taking entrance exams to the US military - not by government institutions with an agenda to make mandatory school seem good) have been declining ever since, as well. Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 11:24
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quote:Where did you get this from? First time I ever heard this hypothesis. Even in my generation, 15 would have been late for a girl, 16 extremely late. And cows were not fed with antibiotics and steroids back in my day. Girls don't stop to grow when reaching puberty. Of that I can assure you. [ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:25: Message edited by: ef ] -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 11:27
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quote:Okay, just what I've seen and heard, and cows are fed such things now (here). -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 11:58
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re normal age for puberty: Now a fair number of girls are having their first period at age 8, which was definitely rare in previous generations. There's a definite trend of earlier puberty in today's women. Women aren't very fertile until a couple of years after menarche, but they're getting fertile earlier at about the same rate. Early puberty does have some negative effect on growth, because testosterone eventually stops the growth of the bones in the arms and legs. This is much more pronounced in men than women, though. quote:I don't know about birth defects, but the rate of injuries and other complications during childbirth is greater for both the mother and the child. quote:Suppose slavery had continued a little longer than it did, and automated labour had now made slaves obsolete for everything except eating -- since none of them have any marketable skills and none owns any property, they'll die out unless we keep farming them for food. Replace "cows" with "Negros" and decide how much you still like your argument. Cows are unable to survive in the wild because we bred them to be unable to survive in the wild. It seems rather twisted to argue that it's okay for humans to decide what to do with cows because humans made them dependent on us for survival. quote:I don't buy this. Adolescents have been acting stupidly since time immemmorial. Sure, previously they were acting stupidly while doing much the same things adults do, but that doesn't mean they weren't still acting stupidly. Romeo was 14, Juliet was 12. Plus ca change... quote:You know, this could easily be a cohort effect relating to the sort of people who want to get into the military changing. [ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 12:02: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 12:06
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...or standards could be sliding in education, which is independent from maturation. I would posit that (western) society has made it easier to remain sheltered and dependent longer. I reckon also that there is at least some separation between emotional, physical, and intellectual maturitation. In my case, physical was definitely a bit slow, as was emotional - it took me a long time to become comfortable with the notion of forming regular as well as intimate relationships with women, despite my hormones pushing me with some desparation to do so. Academics came easily, though, which seemed a small consolation. :) [ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 12:08: Message edited by: andrew miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5585
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 12:36
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Life for a cow is probably better in captivity than in the wild(if there is such a thing as a wild cow anymore). Bieng killed by is is a lot more humane than bieng killed by a predator or a disease, which causes a much longer and more painful death. And they probably would be killed by a predator or a disease in the wild, if not by starvation, unless the predator population is suffering, the food was plentiful, and something happened to all the diseases. Wether or not cows would enjoy it more in the wild or an organic farm is hard to tell, as it's very hard to impossible to tell what animals like to do, and for the most part, cows don't seem to want anything they don't need. -------------------- Important Information about Stuff Posts: 258 | Registered: Wednesday, March 9 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 13:11
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Tim, did you reach Thuryl's post? If you missed it, the section relative to your argument is posted below: quote: -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 13:33
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Thuryl, the slaves in question do not have marketable skills to begin with, but then again, neither do children. Humans can obtain marketable skills, cows have none but what those with which they were born. Silver, I agree with you, but animal rights activists are even more outraged by extinctions than they are over farm conditions. Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 13:40
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Humans never made any individual cows dependent upon humans. By choosing which cows and bulls would breed, and in the process helping many more cows to breed and to live than would have managed to do so naturally, humans have made the species of cow dependent upon them. No doubt many lean and ornery longhorns, which might in a state of nature have been long-lived and prolific sires, have suffered early extinction at human hands. Yet for every such thwarted champion bull, several fat placid milkmachines, which might in a state of nature have starved quickly, have survived and proliferated in comfort. The net human impact on life, reproduction, and comfort of individual cows would seem to be enormously positive. The offense of human husbandry, if there is any, would therefore seem to be not against cows, but against the cow genome. If there is any doubt about the moral rights of cows, surely the rights of such an abstract collective entity as the cow genome are quite nebulous. For one thing, the whole human-cow relationship, at the species level, can surely be considered a most cunningly successful symbiosis, as far as the cow genome is concerned. If genomes can have wishes, then the mammoth genome probably wishes it could have been a cow. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 13:59
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quote:Well, this debate seems to have moved onto more relevant subjects, but I might as well answer the question anyway. The dairy I worked on, we would occasionally give the cows a b12 injection and drench them. They ate mostly grass - kept growing throughout the year by centre pivot irrigation. Depending on the time of year, this was supplemented with hay/silage. At one point we even mixed that with lollies (not kidding). We fed crushed grain in the bails when they came in to be milked, with some supplements thrown in there as well. After milking, we sprayed their teats with an iodine/water mixture. Our main use of antibiotics was penicillin, whenever a cow got mastitis. The milk, obviously, was excluded. EDIT: Regarding domesticated cows, not every cow is a Friesan or a Hereford. Brahmans could survive quite well in the wild, for example. [ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 14:01: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, April 27 2005 22:08
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quote:Ha! I like your style. Most excellent, sir. I'd attempt to compose a suitable riposte, but the trouble is that this line of conversation has me in the mood for a eugenics debate, which is a little outside the scope of the topic. Since Stug's stirrings in this topic appear to be growing increasingly frequent, perhaps we ought to leave him to what was, after all, intended to be his debate. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 00:00
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quote:Um, feel free to carry on for the next few days. My wrist is healing rapidly, but I'm still restricted to one-handed typing. Call it laziness, but I'm not willing to engage in a massive debate when it takes me a whole minute to type a single sentence. :P -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 00:01
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If TM gets back in on the debate, there'll be a lot of one-handed typing going on anyway. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 995
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 00:49
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quote:Foul. ad hominem. back 10 yards, no first down. Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 01:42
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Aw, TM's used to it. To his credit, he hasn't quoted any impenetrable postmodernist authors lately. Really, though, I think my comment was justified considering that he's already mentioned sexual congress with mangos in this very topic. ... wait, that was sort of my fault too. Damn. Well, never mind then. [ Thursday, April 28, 2005 01:43: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, April 28 2005 03:32
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quote:  +  =  -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
