THE GREAT DEBATE

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AuthorTopic: THE GREAT DEBATE
Dolphin
Shaper
Member # 5437
 written Tuesday, April 26 2005 15:32 Profile #50
America doesn't have a single standard for Organics. It varies state to state. Where I am it means free from all artificial substances. For crops to be organic the soil has to be free of chemical fertilizers and pesticides for ten years, and the plants themselves must not be sprayed. For meat and dairy to be organic they have to be free of hormones and antibiotics. Antibiotics are not a natural substance, so to use them in farming would not be organic.

It's just my preference to not have those types if things in my food.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Ash Lael
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
 written Tuesday, April 26 2005 15:58 Profile Homepage #51
Yes, but it could be that after a certain withholding period, the antibiotics are determined to have left the cow's system and it's okay to sell her milk again. Not that it makes any sort of difference to us or this topic, I'm just vaguely curious what those farms do when they get a sick cow.

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Sex is easier than love.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Dolphin
Shaper
Member # 5437
 written Tuesday, April 26 2005 16:22 Profile #52
Of course if an animal is sick it receives medical care. To call dairy and meat antibiotic free means that they are not given antibiotics as part of their daily feed, and the dairy and meat must not contain any. The animal would not be milked or sold as meat until the antibiotic clears the system. Most inorganic farms (here) do add antibiotics as part of the cow's daily supplements

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Ash Lael
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
 written Tuesday, April 26 2005 16:30 Profile Homepage #53
What, serious? Freak me out.

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Sex is easier than love.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Dolphin
Shaper
Member # 5437
 written Tuesday, April 26 2005 16:36 Profile #54
How does this work where you are?

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Tuesday, April 26 2005 18:40 Profile Homepage #55
Yeah, in many places it's a not uncommon farming practice to routinely give antibiotics to healthy livestock. Apparently, apart from preventing illness, it can change the bacterial balance of the gut in such a way that it improves digestion and makes the animal grow better. Of course, it also leads to the selection of strains of antibiotic-resistant bacteria on a massive scale.

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My BoE Page
Bandwagons are fun!
Roots
Hunted!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Inferior
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
 written Tuesday, April 26 2005 21:07 Profile #56
quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

Mind, I wouldn't say cows have very limited consciousness. They aren't terribly smart, but they are conscious. And some animals have very long life spans. Ostriches can live to be 70.
I didn't say that they are mindless beings, but they are certainly incognizant to the death that awaits them.

Also, if we slaughter these animals, how do we disadvantage them?
Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00
Dolphin
Shaper
Member # 5437
 written Tuesday, April 26 2005 21:21 Profile #57
Nobody has voiced being against killing the animals, just how they are treated while living.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Spring
Shaper
Member # 5450
 written Tuesday, April 26 2005 21:26 Profile Homepage #58
quote:
Originally written by Mind:


Also, if we slaughter these animals, how do we disadvantage them?
We disadvantage them by taking away their life. Wouldn't you say thats a fair disadvantage?

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I'll put a Spring in your step.

Polaris
Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00
Stugri-La
Guardian
Member # 3521
 written Tuesday, April 26 2005 23:44 Profile #59
quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:

Nobody has voiced being against killing the animals, just how they are treated while living.
I'll take care of that, just as soon as this damned wrist heals up.

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Stughalf

"Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita.
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00
Inferior
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 01:39 Profile #60
quote:
Originally written by Sprung Spring:

quote:
Originally written by Mind:

Also, if we slaughter these animals, how do we disadvantage them?
We disadvantage them by taking away their life. Wouldn't you say thats a fair disadvantage?
In a word, no.

[ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 02:36: Message edited by: Mind ]
Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00
Dolphin
Shaper
Member # 5437
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 06:39 Profile #61
Mind-
Unless that animal wanted to die, killing it would be disadvantaging it.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Inferior
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 06:53 Profile #62
quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:

Mind-
Unless that animal wanted to die, killing it would be disadvantaging it.
I'm certain animals which don't require to utilize their brains frequently such as cows are even conscious of the fact that their lifespan is limited.

If domesticated cows had more intelligence, than they would desire to die.

[ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 07:05: Message edited by: Mind ]
Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00
Dolphin
Shaper
Member # 5437
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 07:01 Profile #63
What makes you so certain they would want to die?

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 07:01 Profile #64
quote:
Originally written by Mind:

[QUOTE]I'm certain animals which don't require to utilize their brains frequently such as cows are even conscious of the fact that their lifespan is limited.

If cows had more intelligence, than they would certainly desire to die.
That's a non sequitor if ever there were. Assuming you're more intelligent than a cow, do you desire to die?
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Inferior
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 07:15 Profile #65
quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

That's a non sequitor if ever there were. Assuming you're more intelligent than a cow, do you desire to die?
How subtle. In a disguised, euphemistic way, you're comparing my intelligence with the intelligence of a cow.

How can you compare the life of a human with the life of a cow?

quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:

What makes you so certain they would want to die?
Because their lives are entirely empty, for obvious reasons.

[ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 09:19: Message edited by: Mind ]
Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00
Dolphin
Shaper
Member # 5437
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 07:28 Profile #66
These reasons you didn't mention may only be apparent to you. Cows are not completely unconscious, and are doing what cows do, and likely enjoy doing it.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 08:39 Profile #67
quote:
Originally written by Mind:

quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

That's a non sequitor if ever there were. Assuming you're more intelligent than a cow, do you desire to die?
How subtile. In a disguised, euphemistic way, you're comparing my intelligence with the intelligence of a cow.
My intent wasn't to be subtle, and the question was largely rhetorical. You seemed to be associating increased intelligence/awareness of mortality with a desire for death. I was merely pointing out, in my back-handed way, how silly that is.

Your words: "If cows had more intelligence, than they would certainly desire to die." There are lots of animals out there more intelligent than cows, and they don't seem to be throwing themselves off cliffs. If anything, if cows were aware of their own mortality, I'd bet they'd be far less willing to be domesticated and slaughtered. Heck, if they were that intelligent, they'd probably have won equal protection under the law and a vote by now, though gay cows would likely still be discriminated against, but that's a societal problem for us as well.

quote:
How can you compare the life of a human with the life of a cow?
How can you presume to know the mind of a cow? You're the one positing a deathwish amongst a theoretical bovine intelligentsia.

[ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 08:44: Message edited by: andrew miller ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Inferior
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 09:19 Profile #68
quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

Your words: "If cows had more intelligence, than they would certainly desire to die." There are lots of animals out there more intelligent than cows, and they don't seem to be throwing themselves off cliffs.
I was speaking specifically about cows, not about all animals in general.

The main occupation of cows is grazing in meadows, wether they are domesticated or not. Therefor, I would certainly rather die than have my life displaced by the life of a cow.

Besides, the lifespan of domesticated cows is probably much longer by average than the lifespan of undomesticated cows.

quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:

These reasons you didn't mention may only be apparent to you. Cows are not completely unconscious, and are doing what cows do, and likely enjoy doing it.
I never claimed that cows are completely unconscious, and I doubt that cows are feeling ecstatic while grazing.
Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 09:37 Profile #69
quote:
Originally written by Mind:

quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

Your words: "If cows had more intelligence, than they would certainly desire to die." There are lots of animals out there more intelligent than cows, and they don't seem to be throwing themselves off cliffs.
I was speaking specifically about cows, not about all animals in general.
You aren't addressing my entire paragraph.

quote:
The main occupation of cows is grazing in meadows, wether they are domesticated or not. Therefor, I would certainly rather die than have my life displaced by the life of a cow.
I think what you opine in this case has more to do with your own struggle to find meaning in life than anything to do with cows - you certainly seem fixated with meaning and especially with death in many of your posts.

Would an intelligent cow necessarily content itself to grazing in a field? Despite all its rage, would it still be just a rat in a cage?

I recommend watching the movie "Babe" for some perspective. :)

[ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 09:40: Message edited by: andrew miller ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Dolphin
Shaper
Member # 5437
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 09:41 Profile #70
You are taking this from the prospective of a human living as a cow, not a cow living as a cow. Grazing is what they do, why would they dislike doing it?

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Inferior
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 09:52 Profile #71
quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

If anything, if cows were aware of their own mortality, I'd bet they'd be far less willing to be domesticated and slaughtered. Heck, if they were that intelligent, they'd probably have won equal protection under the law and a vote by now, though gay cows would likely still be discriminated against, but that's a societal problem for us as well.
Cows aren't that intelligent, so this argument is irrelevant.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo:

Grazing is what they do, why would they dislike doing it?
I didn't state that they dislike doing it, but that they don't enjoy doing it.

[ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:06: Message edited by: Mind ]
Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00
Dolphin
Shaper
Member # 5437
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 10:01 Profile #72
quote:
Originally written by Mind:


quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

[qb]Grazing is what they do, why would they dislike doing it?
I didn't state that they dislike doing it, but that they don't enjoy doing it.
I said that, not Andrew, and who's to say they don't enjoy it? They are incapable of expressing joy or contentment the way we do.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Inferior
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 10:09 Profile #73
You are right. Cows are most-probably satisfied and complacent beings, being fed by serotonine and not being distressed by sorrow, unintelligent as they are.

This issue is hasn't been contradicted yet:
quote:
Besides, the lifespan of domesticated cows is probably much longer by average than the lifespan of undomesticated cows.
Also, if animals wouldn't be slaughtered by humanity, would it reduce the suffering in the universe so significantly? Still, infinite beings would die every moment.

[ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:18: Message edited by: Mind ]
Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, April 27 2005 10:24 Profile #74
quote:
Originally written by Mind:

quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

If anything, if cows were aware of their own mortality, I'd bet they'd be far less willing to be domesticated and slaughtered. Heck, if they were that intelligent, they'd probably have won equal protection under the law and a vote by now, though gay cows would likely still be discriminated against, but that's a societal problem for us as well.
Cows aren't that intelligent, so this argument is irrelevant.
Who's the one who started speculating on increased intelligence in cows? Your words:

quote:
If domesticated cows had more intelligence, than they would desire to die.
Your other assertion,

quote:
Besides, the lifespan of domesticated cows is probably much longer by average than the lifespan of undomesticated cows.
...is irrelevant to any point we're arguing here.

[ Wednesday, April 27, 2005 10:28: Message edited by: andrew miller ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00

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