THE GREAT DEBATE
Pages
| Author | Topic: THE GREAT DEBATE |
|---|---|
|
Guardian
Member # 3521
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 14:21
Profile
quote:Fine by me. I've got a brace for the wrist now, but it's rather constricting. I think I'll probably wait until the wrist has healed up a bit to attempt any two-handed typing. A week should be enough, as the doctor told me it should heal completely in two or three weeks. Until then, carry on. -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 14:36
Profile
Okay, perhaps the animals diet isn't a very strong argument. Cow are kept indoors in very poor conditions. Anyone who says commercial animals are treated well has not visited a commercial farm. I'm sure Peta would have some more accurate pictures. I'm not against eating meat, just the way industrialized farming operates. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 14:36: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 15:02
Profile
Homepage
quote:What do you mean by 'commercial farms'? Aren't all farms commercial? I've worked and lived on a few farms and visited a whole bunch of others. By and large, the animals are treated pretty well. Pampered? Heck no. But they are kept in good health (which is of course in the farmer's best interest). I'm not sure what you mean by 'very poor conditions'. Admittedly, I've never had much to do with lotfeeding, but they're being kept out of the wind and rain at least. They might not get much space to run around, but most cattle aren't very excitable anyway (having been bred for temperment) - the trade off isn't so bad. I wouldn't trust any info from PETA, personally. Their disconnect from reality is pretty severe. I think I've seen them claiming that milk is bad for your health. :rolleyes: -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 15:52
Profile
Forgive me for the habit of not clarifying terms. Commercial as in non-organic, very large companies who's concern is money not animals. Fast-food companies are probably some of the worst. Yes, they are indoors, but most of them don't have much room to move around. I'm sure cows like to walk around. I never advocated Peta's ethics, just a place where there are pictures of conditions. They are against milk, and any other animal product (meat, eggs) I don't personally agree with such things. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 15:53: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 16:32
Profile
Homepage
quote:Well, I haven't had anything to do with those. But it strikes me as silly to say that their concern is money, not animals. Of course it is. It's the same on any farm of any size - they're businesses. But, in the interest of making money, it's just plain good business to take proper care of the animals. Good health = more and better meat/milk/whatever. What do they do that is so horrible? [quote]Yes, they are indoors, but most of them don't have much room to move around. I'm sure cows like to walk around.[/quote]I'm not actually sure. They don't love running around the way that dogs and horses do, that's about all I'm certain of. They'll plod about to the trough for a bit of water, they'll plod over to where there's some better grass, they'll even do a bit of running when someone feeds some grain out. Do they actually enjoy walking around for the sake of it? I dunno. It's quite possible, but there aren't any obvious outward signs that they do (as there is with a dog). There aren't any obvious signs that they mind being locked in small yards, either. I don't think it's a big deal. Whatever stress this causes them, it's probably outweighed by the fact that they're out of the elements and being fed grain every day. [quote]I never advocated Peta's ethics, just a place where there are pictures of conditions. They are against milk, and any other animal product (meat, eggs) I don't personally agree with such things.[/quote]I'm not talking about their ethics, I'm talking about their facts, though both are pretty screwy. I poked around the website a bit, didn't see anything ghastly. What horrible conditions in particular are you talking about? [ Monday, April 25, 2005 16:34: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 17:06
Profile
quote:Antibiotics = dirtier conditions and less nutrition being expectable. Steroids = faster growth = more meat = more money. Why would they need to give the animals antibiotics and supplemental vitamins as part of their regular diet if the animals lived in natural conditions? quote:I'm probably the wrong person to offer exact details on this, as I have not been involved in inorganic companies in some time. It is difficult to list examples without references. I'll look it to about bit. I buy form companies such as Organic Pastures and Claravale, and their meat equivalent. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 17:13: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
BANNED
Member # 4
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 17:23
Profile
Homepage
quote:...are we reading the same website, even? I don't plan on getting into this wholesale, but some of the worst abusers in my mind are... http://notmilk.com/deb/video.html http://notmilk.com/dairycows.html http://notmilk.com/forum/515.html I haven't read through 'em all, and some of them are disturbing, but I can't tell which would be bad to you or not. Personally, the thought of drinking feces in my milk is disturbing indeed, but that's not part of the topic, is it? -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 17:37
Profile
Maybe The Humane Society would be a more trustworthy resource for you? Edit: For some reason I can't type today. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 17:48: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 17:42
Profile
Homepage
quote:You seem to be under the illusion that 'natural' conditions are automatically better. In natural conditions, animals tend to be less healthy and die a lot more. Disease goes untreated. They eat what they can get, not a carefully planned diet to give them the best health possible. Haven't seen steroids being used (aside from teasers, but don't ask about those :P ), but I don't see anything wrong with it. As far as I'm aware, they only cause health problems in the later stages of life, while beef cattle are killed at their prime. Could be wrong there, as I said I don't know a lot about steroids. What is it that makes them an issue for you? quote:Righto. Let me know when you have something. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 17:43: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 17:45
Profile
See above. Just a side note, how did I get into this with you :P Edit: Pictures of some farm animals in their happy home. The sites go on and on. None of this is new, it's just commonly excepted. Edit 2: one more, egg hens. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 18:38: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 18:49
Profile
Homepage
I thought this was a one-on-one affair. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 19:43
Profile
Homepage
Alec - read the post at the top of this page again. We're just doing a bit of friendly sparring while Stugie heals. :P TM - The third link doesn't work for me. The other two are written in a very emotive style that makes things sound a lot worse than they are. They may (or may not) even be exaggerated. The first one is fine by me. Once you get past all the outrage and accusations of sadism, it's a guy unloading a bunch of calves, and shooting them. Big deal. I've done plenty worse. The second one, I don't really know anything about growth hormones. And yes, those large udders look awfully unnatural (and this is simply the result of selecting for milk production - not GM hormones), but the picture on the far right is an unfair representation. That cow is just a freak. Its udder is too large to be milkable - no farmer would want something like that. It also looks like an old photo. As I said before, I don't trust PETA, but assuming their figures are accurate, they show that the internal organs of cows given a growth hormone grow - what a suprise! But this is no way means that these cows experience pain from it, or that they are 'exploding from the inside' as they claim. They extrapolate too much from too little. The FDA determined that it was painless and safe - not that it doesn't affect them in any way. I haven't seen anything to contradict that. Dolphin - Those photos don't give a very clear look, and I don't have any personal experience with 'factory farming'. I don't think it even happens in Australia, aside from battery hens. But assuming it's all true, yes, I concede that it isn't very nice for the animal. Now, why should that matter? -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 20:00
Profile
What happens to the animal happens to you. Tortured animals pass on adrenalin to you. Say a cow is given Growth Hormone; it doesn't disappear when the cow dies. It will affect your endocrine system as well. Giving an animal so much antibiotics will also be passed on to you, so when you take antibiotics they are less effective. Girls are maturing at 12 years old. The cows are given estrogen so they will produce milk, and gain more meat. This is passed on to human females who would not yet be producing such hormones. This causes very early maturation. I don't know about Australia, I'm sure most of those links were American. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 20:07: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 20:28
Profile
Homepage
I know that's what PETA and other animal rights organizations claim. Is there any actual medical research on the subject? As for antibiotics, what do you suggest we should do when a cow gets mastitis? Let her udder rot? Put her down (unnecessarily) and lose 700 bucks of cow? Neither of those alternatives are cost-effective or humane. Can't send her to the meatworks either - she's unfit for human consumption. -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 20:38
Profile
I will look for some medical research on what is passed on to us, but also show me something that says the hormones don't affect humans. The cow's utters wouldn't abscess if they were kept clean. There is meat that is “No hormones, no antibiotics” as in Organic or all-natural meat. It can be done. The cows shouldn't get like that in the first place. And I would argue that once given hormones and antibiotics the animal is no long suitable for consumption anyways. Edit: The claim is that the hormones in given to the animals will cause cancer. Not my favorite links, I'll see if I can find better ones. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 20:55: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 21:07
Profile
Homepage
Utters (sic) wouldn't abscess if they were kept clean? Yep, you sure know what you're talking about. Yes, preventative measures are taken. Cows are expensive, dairy farmers do everything they can to keep them healthy. No, it doesn't always work, and it's naive to think it does (or that it can). Cows get mastitis (which isn't the same as abscesses anyway). They get milk fever. And without treatment, they die. You can't prevent it all, at some point you have to decide what you're going to do about it. Organic meat (still a niche market) is a lot easier to produce than organic milk. In fact, I don't believe I've ever heard of organic milk. It's just not cost-effective, even if there is a market for it. I'll not go into the differences between beef production and milk production, because that's just bogging things down. Though I'm forced to wonder why we're even discussing this, as it has less to do with animal rights than human health. I don't think I'll bother trying to find evidence that hormones don't affect people. I could make some argument about burden of proof, but more importantly, I just don't care. :P Edit: Regarding those links, fair enough. I'm not well-versed enough on the subject to dispute them. I know that the EU does have very stringent controls on the meat it imports. Standards for other countries are somewhat lower. I doubt that there are serious dangers involved, either way. I'm forced to wonder what about naturally occuring hormones, and why they aren't considered just as much of a health risk. But then, you probably don't know enough to answer that. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 21:19: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 21:16
Profile
Fair enough, and the two links earlier on are organic dairy companies. I don't know what to say about animal rights in particular. I eat meat, so I can't complain about killing animals. This was entertaining though :P -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 21:38
Profile
Homepage
Checked those two links (which I should have done earlier, sorry). I noticed that while they talked a lot about what they did (or rather, didn't do) to the milk, they didn't seem to mention what they do to the cows. It's possible they still give their cows antibiotics, though that would seem to be going against the spirit of the thing. They also use Jerseys which may or may not have the same problems as Friesan cows, but don't produce as much. Anyway, point taken. clearly enough of a market exists over in America for such things. Edit: Out of idle curiosity, do you see any problems with a woman who has had antibiotics at some point breastfeeding her baby? [ Monday, April 25, 2005 21:48: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 21:53
Profile
Homepage
Ash, I'm not sure what milk fever has to do with anything. Even I know that you treat milk fever with a calcium injection, not hormones or antibiotics. EDIT: And women who have recently had certain medications (including some antibiotics) are often advised against breastfeeding precisely because it can be harmful to the baby. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 21:55: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Monday, April 25 2005 21:59
Profile
Homepage
Uh... ...er... Damn, that's my brain letting me down something awful. I remembered injecting them with stuff, and completely forgot what it was. How incredibly embarassing. I attribute it to my attempts to forget everything about dairy life. :P The point stands, of course, even if that particular example was faulty. Edit: I'm not talking about recently. I'm talking about ever. Cows who have been treated recently go through a withholding period before their milk is allowed back in the vats, for obvious reasons. [ Monday, April 25, 2005 22:04: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
|
written Tuesday, April 26 2005 02:03
Profile
quote:Genetically modified plants are not sickening or disgusting at all: We consummate them as well. Also, I doubt the plants which the animals eat are ever sprayed with pesticides or other chemical products. quote:Their life-span is short, and their consciousness is very limited. quote:Do you ever see them pace around in meadows as horses do? quote:That is a fallacious suspicion. The meat of the cattle cultivated in Belgium is well-known for its quality, because of artificial selection. The farmers here were also often accused of using steroids, which has been proved to be incorrect. Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Tuesday, April 26 2005 02:46
Profile
Homepage
quote:For future reference, the word you mean is "consume". "Consummate" means something entirely different that I really don't want to think about in the context of plants, genetically modified or otherwise. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
BANNED
Member # 4
|
written Tuesday, April 26 2005 03:22
Profile
Homepage
...unless it's Mangos we're talking about here. Hubba-hubba. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 5437
|
written Tuesday, April 26 2005 07:11
Profile
To Ash: As Thuryl said some antibiotics and other meds are potentially harmful to the baby. All I can comment on is what I would personally put in my body while breast-feeding. I would not give any of the early infancy vaccines, but many women feel it necessary, so these things are personal preferences. The two dairy links are Organic free-range farms. They are very small companies and are kind to their animals. One is grass only and the other supplements grain in the winter. They are raw dairies, and California laws on unpasteurized sanitation standards are very strict. To clam a dairy as organic and raw it has to pass inspections to show it meets its claims, and is clean. To Mind: quote:I didn't say that, I believe that Ash said that to me. quote:Some animals have short lives, and some animals have limited consciousness. They do feel fear and pain. Why do unnecessary harm to any being? Especially one that can't comprehend why it is being hurt. quote:They may be somewhat less mobile that some other farm animals, but that doesn't make it any more right to pack them into holding pens. quote:Okay, but here it is common practice. Steroids meaning estrogens, growth hormone. [ Tuesday, April 26, 2005 08:13: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
|
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
|
written Tuesday, April 26 2005 13:55
Profile
Homepage
Dolphin - I'm sure those dairies are indeed organic and their milk is clean and of high quality. I'm just curious about the definition of 'organic' under American regulations. It could well be that American dairies are allowed to treat their cows with antibiotics and still qualify as 'organic'. I personally wouldn't see anything wrong with it - milk should be withheld during and for a while following any treatment (as is common practice), but afterwards I see no problems with continuing to use that cow. I was trying to point out as much with the breastfeeding analogy. It's all irrelevant, of course. quote:Mind, I wouldn't say cows have very limited consciousness. They aren't terribly smart, but they are conscious. And some animals have very long life spans. Ostriches can live to be 70. But I still think it's fine to kill them. :P And back to Dolphin: quote:How do you know it bothers them? As I've explained, they show no signs of distress when they get locked up. [ Tuesday, April 26, 2005 14:31: Message edited by: Ash Lael ] -------------------- Sex is easier than love. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
