What are YOU doing for Christmas?
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3608
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written Thursday, December 18 2003 08:57
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My religion tells me that God loves all of us. That religion lies. Call me faithless, but I won't damn pay respects to any God until he proves his excistance somehow.. That, no matter how much I'm being christian. -------------------- - The Great Mister Posts: 972 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Thursday, December 18 2003 09:43
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SD, Jame didn't say that he was talking about the Christian God in particular. He said that was Christ was not the son of a god and that there is indeed no god. It's not a proper noun, so it's perfectly acceptable. Aside from which, if he forgives everything else, I really don't think he damns you for incorrect capitalisation. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3188
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written Friday, December 19 2003 08:50
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You all should go to church once in a while... But seriously, the "theory of evolution" does not state that we came from monkeys. It states that over time things evolve and form that scientists have derived that we used to be monkeys because we have so much in common (DNA, brain size, thumb, etc.) Are a llama and a giraffe necissarily related in the evolutionary sense? They both have long necks, have four legs, are herbavores... But they are seperate creations, just as monkeys and humans are. Here is what convinced me: The creation story from the Bible says that on the first day, He created the heavens and the earth. Everyone knows that the stars and the earth did indeed come first, but how were the writers of the Genesis to know that? Over the next few days, night and day were created, land and oceans were seperated, life appeared in the oceans, life appeared (evolved) on land, and the animals were created. Only after this did God look at it and notice that something was missing, so he created man and that man woud rule over all of the other creations. Well this sequence of events happens exactly as scientists say it happened because they have telescopes and carbon-dating. But if there was no God to tell this to the writers of Genesis, then how did they know? For all they knew woman was created first and that she needed a home so the earth was created. But the Bible gets the sequence of events right down to humans were the last creation made. To me, this is compelling evidence that there is a God and that he made the Bible to prove it to us. Now if you have other theories on how the Bible came about, please, by all means, share them. Otherwise, think about it. -------------------- No monkeyin' around at Chance :p And that, my Leige, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. -Sir Bedevere It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt! Posts: 154 | Registered: Tuesday, July 8 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Friday, December 19 2003 09:05
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.......is that *all* you've got? Your view of evolution is so simplistic it blows my mind away. You're right about only one thing - we *didn't* come from monkeys, we simply share a common ancestory. The writers of Genesis wrote the story of the creation of the world in the logical way it would happen. I'm afraid you are wrong on a monumental way if you believe that the way it happens in the Bible is the way it happened in real life. First off, the earth and the stars did not come first. The earth and most of the stars we see today have only been around for a fraction of the universe's existance. Also light certainly came way, WAY, before the Earth existed. I'm no scientist, but I know that the story of Genesis does not match scientific explanations. This reminds me of another story I heard that tried to prove Creationism. There was an Israeli scientist, an amazing mathematican, who searched the Bible for hidden skip codes (words that appear if you skip every so many letters). He found hundreds. He found names of various Rabbis and the dates they were born and for a while, it looked like conclusive proof for Creationism. Then another guy ran Moby Dick through the same computer program, and was able to predict John F. Kennedy's death. If you search hard enough, you find proof for anything. Creationists are so hell bent on proving themselves right, they kinda miss the point. -------------------- KazeArctica: "Imagine...wangs everywhere...and tentacles. Nothing but wangs and tentacles! And no pants!" Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3073
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written Friday, December 19 2003 09:08
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God is a simple answer, for simple people with complex question. The bible is just a really old text which was orginally a fictional epic about values and right and wrong. Over thousands of years, literally, it has been edited and revised so many times, just to exclude certain minorities of people who think differently than others. Not everybodys' definition of "right" is the same. The bible just takes the general idea of this, and just adds a few things while explaining it. This, "heaven" and "god" is just your simple answer for why we are on this earth. You believe that if you are living your life the "right" way, you will be rewarded. These beliefs to you obviously make you feel warm and toasty inside. You are just confused, so you choose to believe the easiest thing to understand. This idea, gives you the feeling that we have a purpose, when really we don't. We evolutionized into strange forever reproducing mammals, whos only point is to take over and destroy our home. -------------------- "It's cool to be a robot." Scud "Half human, half robot, all Sicilian." Tony Tastey "|||| ||| |||| ||| ||| |||||?!? Drywall "I'm calm.....GET THE HELL AWAY FROM ME." Don Vito Posts: 383 | Registered: Friday, June 6 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3188
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written Friday, December 19 2003 09:40
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First of all, Morgan, if you are no scientist, dont pretend to be! First of all, the universe is around 15 billion years old. After the Big Bang, the universe consisted of random protons, neutrons and electrons, no photons. After a few hundred years they formed hydrogen and helium, which, through gravity, started to clump together, and a couple thousand years after the Big Bang, a star was formed. From this star there came light and heat. True, some of the stars of today are young, but the first stars appeared around 14.5 billion years ago and. And the earth is around 4.5 billion years old. Not nearly small enough of a time to be considered a fraction. The Bible is scientifically correct. I'm afraid you are wrong on a monumental way if you believe that the way it happens in the real life is anything other than the way it happened in the Bible, because how were they to know if the earth wasnt was created before man was? How did they know that you couldnt live in space, if they even knew that there was a "space." And I'm not meaning to pound a guru but get your facts straight, Morgan. Second of all, those are not my only views on evolution, I was merely giving an example. Evolution in high school boilogy was one of my favorate subjects, even though I am a Christan. And no, what they taught in high school is not all I know about it. I read about evolution and the origin of the universe in the views of people like Stephen Hawking and Kip Thorne. This kind of stuff interestes me. Keep this goin', Morgan, I want to hear more of your views. -------------------- No monkeyin' around at Chance :p And that, my Leige, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. -Sir Bedevere It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt! Posts: 154 | Registered: Tuesday, July 8 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3608
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written Friday, December 19 2003 10:19
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^ will be a newbie smashed to small pieces soon. -------------------- - The Great Mister Posts: 972 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Friday, December 19 2003 10:20
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^ Agreed. -------------------- "Let a man find himself, in distinction from others, on top of two wheels with a chain- at least in a poor country like Russia- and his vanity begins to swell out like his tires. In America it takes an automobile to produce this effect."- Leon Trotsky Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3188
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written Friday, December 19 2003 10:27
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^ I disagree. If you are going to smash somone then you must know a little of what they are talking about. You must be able to argue with them. And if the smashing is to be into tiny pieces, then they must present a formidible argument that can rival my own. Do you have a good argument, Jesus the Manbaby? Or you, Stughalf? If not, then get off this string! -------------------- No monkeyin' around at Chance :p And that, my Leige, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. -Sir Bedevere It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt! Posts: 154 | Registered: Tuesday, July 8 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Friday, December 19 2003 10:46
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Ok, let's get nitpicking about this. It says in Genesis that God created the Earth and the heavens at the *same* *time* (on the first day). This disregards the Big Bang and the scientific view of the creation of the world (created from the debris of a much larger planet). The chances of the Genesis writers being right about the basic physics, however, is not mathematically significant.The blackness of space looks like just what it is - a huge void, so it's only commen sense that they'd think it's uninhabitable. In the end, it's not me that has to justify the argument - since you are providing the theory, you have to justify it. Genesis writers being right about a few things is so insignifcant in terms of probability that it is an argument that could be knocked down with ease by a good statistician with a nice calculator. However, I do feel this line of argument could get rather messy and spoil the spirit of Christmas. If you'd like to continue this on AIM, great - it's been ages since I've debated with an intelligent fundie. I'm morganwild32 . If not, I'm not totally opposed to ruining the spirit of Christmas. [ Friday, December 19, 2003 10:50: Message edited by: Morgan ] -------------------- KazeArctica: "Imagine...wangs everywhere...and tentacles. Nothing but wangs and tentacles! And no pants!" Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, December 19 2003 10:58
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Okay, let's take a look at what's actually written in the Bible. I assume the KJV is acceptable to you? KJV Bible quote: Genesis 1 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day. 14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. According to this, not only did God create the earth before the moon and the stars, he got as far as creating plants before he felt it necessary to have stars in the sky. I'd call that a fairly significant discrepancy. By the way, I'm a biology student, so if you want to discuss evolution further just send me a private message. Or continue on this thread if you want; I'll be civil if you are, and so far you've been more polite than some of the others who have posted in disagreement with you. [ Friday, December 19, 2003 11:21: Message edited by: Christof the Apostate ] -------------------- I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3608
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written Friday, December 19 2003 11:20
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The newbie did not understand the lines I and Stughalf posted, horray. -------------------- - The Great Mister Posts: 972 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Friday, December 19 2003 11:21
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Well, Apollyon, I suppose I might as well add to this smackdown. Your major argument here seems to be that the Genesis gave a supposedly accurate description of the origin of the world and of humanity, thus "proving" that the Bible is, in fact, the word of God and the absolute Truth. Perhaps your arguments on stars and the like do hold some truth. I am a biology major, not a planetary scientist or astronomer, so I would not know. I would be very interested in hearing what those well-versed in the planetary sciences, such as Schrodinger, would have to say regarding your arguments. Where your argument clearly holds no water is right around here: quote:But if there was no God to tell this to the writers of Genesis, then how did they know? For all they knew woman was created first and that she needed a home so the earth was created. But the Bible gets the sequence of events right down to humans were the last creation made. To me, this is compelling evidence that there is a God and that he made the Bible to prove it to us.You rely very heavily on "how could they have known?" arguments, without realizing that they can all be counteracted quite easily. Perhaps, just maybe, humans back then were in possession of a bit of common sense? You don't need to have advanced scientific equipment or techniques to come to the conclusion that the Earth preceded humanity. You just need to have enough common sense to realize that humans need food, water, and shelter to survive. As the Earth has always provided all three to us, it would be obvious even to people living long ago that the human race could never have survived for a second without the Earth providing all of these things to us. In terms of the passages in Genesis involving woman being created of man, there is absolutely no scientific data supporting such an assumption. How can you claim that such drivel has been proved when there is in actuality no scientific proof at all? To me, such passages sound nothing like the words of a timeless and omniscient God, but very much like those of mortal men, living in an ancient and patriarchal society. Of course, it's only natural that any man brought up in such a society would take it as an unquestionable truth that men had come first. That's all I can think of to say right now. I'm sure others will come up with many more arguments. Good day, Apollyon. [ Friday, December 19, 2003 11:22: Message edited by: Stughalf ] -------------------- "Let a man find himself, in distinction from others, on top of two wheels with a chain- at least in a poor country like Russia- and his vanity begins to swell out like his tires. In America it takes an automobile to produce this effect."- Leon Trotsky Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1104
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written Friday, December 19 2003 11:38
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*unbans himself* Questions on Creation? GO HERE -------------------- 73|-| 1|\|\/1|\|<1|3|_3 |30063y|\/|4|\| AHEM: Chance Forums! -Reality Corp. Posts: 1307 | Registered: Tuesday, May 7 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3188
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written Friday, December 19 2003 11:58
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OK! I give up! You "non-newbies" are way too good for me! Lemme guess, KommandoVaraani, "I told ya so" You do have a good point though, Morgan, that this argument can ruin the spirit of Christmas and I am not inclined to do so! So have a good one and thanks for the smackdown -------------------- No monkeyin' around at Chance :p And that, my Leige, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. -Sir Bedevere It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt! Posts: 154 | Registered: Tuesday, July 8 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Friday, December 19 2003 12:02
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No prob. Don't take any of it personally, though; no one has anything against you. Thanks for a nice debate. I admire your spirit. -------------------- "Let a man find himself, in distinction from others, on top of two wheels with a chain- at least in a poor country like Russia- and his vanity begins to swell out like his tires. In America it takes an automobile to produce this effect."- Leon Trotsky Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Friday, December 19 2003 13:02
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Need answers that aren't based off the mythological writings of old tribal shamans? HERE Apollyon: I should go to church? Why? Also, it is completely false that photons did not exist right away in the "big bang" theory. In fact, light was the "dominant constituent" of the universe. Photons are emitted from many basic physical and chemical reactions. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3188
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written Friday, December 19 2003 13:52
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Take it personally? Who takes stuff personally when their on the internet? You cant always say what you mean to say on the internet and really I dont think you are attacking me, but are attacking the person that I pretend to be. I could be saying things here that are totally contradictory to my beliefs as a person, but hiding behind it with the name you see on your screen. On the internet, you can be anybody you want to be. Under one name you could be a newbie that has the spelling and grammer of a 3 year old, as Morgan said, and on another you could be a well respected guru. You just never know! That's why I dont get offended like some people and dont really mean to offend. I just like having fun, and isnt that the whole point of these boards, is to express yourself and have fun? To Fear Of A Black Hole: I was refering to those who were totally atheistic. -------------------- No monkeyin' around at Chance :p And that, my Leige, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. -Sir Bedevere It is better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt! Posts: 154 | Registered: Tuesday, July 8 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3608
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written Saturday, December 20 2003 06:39
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I'm giving this out to you as a hint, not as flame, Ap. Learn the names behind the monikers. -------------------- - The Great Mister Posts: 972 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
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written Saturday, December 20 2003 06:50
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Mission impossible. You'd have to lurk here for ages before that would become clear. Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3694
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written Saturday, December 20 2003 07:26
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The first thing I'll say is: (a.) What's a "rebel of meat?" and (b.) didn't you know that Distantly Bemused is right? The second thing I'll say is: Oooo, I've created a stir. But this topic is about what we'll do on our day off. I'm staying home and enjoying my presents. Family, you ask? Well, I wish I had a job to get an apartment. 'Nuff said. -------------------- And that was exactly the point of itself. Takes advantage of the easily offended. Posts: 137 | Registered: Monday, November 17 2003 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3608
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written Saturday, December 20 2003 08:05
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quote:Originally written by Ironweed: Mission impossible. You'd have to lurk here for ages before that would become clear.Hear that, Stughalf. -------------------- - The Great Mister Posts: 972 | Registered: Tuesday, October 28 2003 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Saturday, December 20 2003 09:11
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I hear it. Ironweed, you are quite a bit off the mark. It's not at all hard to learn peoples' nicknames around here. I had learnt them all after only a few days. All Apollyon (or any other newbie) has to do is show a little bit of dedication and diligently read through a few threads. That's all. And this is coming from someone who never even was aware of the existence of these boards before about two and a half months ago. -------------------- "Let a man find himself, in distinction from others, on top of two wheels with a chain- at least in a poor country like Russia- and his vanity begins to swell out like his tires. In America it takes an automobile to produce this effect."- Leon Trotsky Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Saturday, December 20 2003 11:29
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Creation: A myth invented by wise-men of a tribe that wouldn't have known the cradle of civilization from the world at least 5000 years ago, translated from oral history to written, translated from ancient Hebrew to Greek, translated from Greek to Latin, left in sole control of one of the most viciously, tenaciously corrupt political institutions in human history for several centuries, then translated to English by a handful of scribes of fair to middling quality in the 16th century. And somehow, this is absolute, scientific fact. EDIT: People don't understand evolution, for the most part. It is a logical set of chemical processes; it has been proven to exist, and it is not a sapient, God-hating entity any more than gravity and conservation of momentum are. Basic idea: Things that do better in their environment live longer, and in so doing, reproduce more, thus spreading their genetic code among the population. Those that express the traits from that code will go on to live longer and reproduce more than those that don't, and such a process continues on until a separate specie has broken off, or perhaps the old specie has been replaced. In any case, I'm sick and tired of people treating evolution as if it's a living, breathing, anti-Christian scientific analogue of God. It's just something that happens. [ Saturday, December 20, 2003 11:35: Message edited by: USA-se Xenerali-boariku CUSITURA ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Saturday, December 20 2003 12:55
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This is going to end in a flame war, so I'm staying out and not reading much of anything after Xan Kreigor's post. All I want to say is that religious people are not necessarily simple. The fact that our views differ from yours does not make us idiots. If I were to say that all atheists are simple, I would be flamed off he face of the earth; yet you have just said that all those who believe in God are simple, and no one even notices. Please, people, at least respect each others' views. And don't kill Apollyon... -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |