will spidweb ever change?
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Apprentice
Member # 3576
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written Sunday, October 19 2003 22:47
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i've been playing spiderweb games since exile 2 came out. loved em. but i've noticed a bit of repetition in gameplay. exile went "3d" for the avernum trilogy, and the same "3d" effect went into geneforge... will spiderweb ever go into full motion games? will they stop the .bmp madness and get into real three dimensional gameplay? or will they stay the same 17% (courtesy of pc gamer) they are now? i know they're capable of much much more. the stories are great, but full motion, movies, a more linear storyline (not so off track, random and confusing), music, more detail, and so on would better this company so much. like i said, i like the games, but they can be BETTER. i know they can. i was hoping that spiderweb can implement some of these ideas into their next game. i apologize for the criticism, but when i saw that 17% in a pc gamer cd, i had to take a stand. [ Monday, October 20, 2003 10:38: Message edited by: Vinny the Ring ] Posts: 1 | Registered: Monday, October 20 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2628
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written Sunday, October 19 2003 22:58
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I hope they don't get into 'real 3d'. My first experience with a graphic rpg was horrifying ... you looked out from the eyes of your party. I found movement was confusing and clumsy - not to mention trying my first fight. I didn't touch another graphic RPG for a decade. The graphics used in Spiderweb games make for small files that can be quickly downloaded (even for users with slower modems). The games run on older machines and you don't need to upgrade your computer every time another Spiderweb game is released. The games don't have whiz-bang 'state of the art' graphics. Unlike many games that do focus on the graphics, they have great plot and gameplay. I'd rather have the plot and gameplay over the fancy graphics any day. -------------------- We meet and part now over all the world; we, the lost company, take hands together in the night, forget the night in our brief happiness, silently. -- Judith Wright My website Posts: 512 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3238
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written Monday, October 20 2003 01:19
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Ditto. I got only a 56K modem, so I need to get some demos quick. Thank god for great gameplay! And I like the way their graphics are... reminds me of the old D&D Pool of Radience game WAAY back when. Well, at least the fighting. -------------------- "Friendship is two things: Trust, and sharing. I personally see it as a business opportunity." -Random Quote Posts: 203 | Registered: Friday, July 18 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1207
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written Monday, October 20 2003 01:40
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Stop complaining about the graphics and get on with playing the actual game. If you really love spidweb you'll find the gameplay a whole lot better. And write properly, with capitals an' stuff. -------------------- ~ørangutan I want high-bit characters in my displayed name!!! :( :( :( (Or at least an exclamtion point!) Eat pie! BADGER! Posts: 316 | Registered: Saturday, May 25 2002 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
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written Monday, October 20 2003 04:26
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I'll side with Kyna here. Although...I have to admit it would be interesting to see what SW could come up with... Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Monday, October 20 2003 04:27
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Knowing them, an MM6 clone.  -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3320
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written Monday, October 20 2003 08:15
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The only 3D game I know how to play is Goldeneye on Nintendo 64. I once tried to play a 3D RP graphics game called Baldur's Gate 2 and didn't get anyway. It was too advanced for me. I took it back to the library and returned it within two days because it gave me a headache trying to figure it out. I prefer games like Exile. Unfortunately, I haven't played any of the other Spidweb games yet. I made an attempt to play Nethergate, but the creation of the party confused me too much. There were too many things to choose from and I never got to the gameplay.  Sorry, I guess I am too used to the Exile series and systems like NES, Sega, and N64. I never caught on to the other game systems.[ Monday, October 20, 2003 20:16: Message edited by: Murder, She Wrote ] -------------------- Mrs. Peacock: "Everything all right?" Colonel Mustard: "Yep. Two Corpses. Everything's fine." "Keep your wits about you, the game is afoot!!" - Sherlock Holmes Posts: 935 | Registered: Friday, August 8 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3570
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written Monday, October 20 2003 08:59
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I admit I like Most Rpg games with full graphics and stuff(i.e Diablo 2 Dungeon Seige,and action games like Sof2,Quake and others) But I dont know what it is about games like the Exile's, Avernum's and the others but I keep coming back for more and if I could tell Spidweb what to do I would still have them make the same type of games because the puzzles, the fights, and the whole game is a challenge not simply full scale graphics to catch the eye...think me weird if you will but... I Am Who I Am. -=Blade=- -------------------- A Dragon's Home Freedom comes when the mind is free. Free from work, free from reality, The mind soars to new heights and places. This is where we live. Reality can not comprehend us, We go beyond the laws of physics, The impossible is possible, And knowledge is meaningless. Few people know of us, Yet all are able to see us. We're in the books, in the art, In buildings and other things. Seek us, and you will find us, Not in reality, but in your heart. Posts: 20 | Registered: Sunday, October 19 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, October 20 2003 09:28
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The only RPG game I prefer to the Exile/Avernum series is ADOM, which is an ASCII-character based game. No graphics at all. Good for the imagination.  -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3570
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written Monday, October 20 2003 09:33
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ADOM huh? Ill have to try it although I have played many old atari RP games that only have words and maybe a few pic of trees or something. I have played many games in my life time and Exile is still one of the best "LONG LIVE SPIDERWEB SOFTWERE!!" lol -------------------- A Dragon's Home Freedom comes when the mind is free. Free from work, free from reality, The mind soars to new heights and places. This is where we live. Reality can not comprehend us, We go beyond the laws of physics, The impossible is possible, And knowledge is meaningless. Few people know of us, Yet all are able to see us. We're in the books, in the art, In buildings and other things. Seek us, and you will find us, Not in reality, but in your heart. Posts: 20 | Registered: Sunday, October 19 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Monday, October 20 2003 11:06
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I do wish there were more options to do gameplay wise in Avernum and Exile. Like summoning monsters that would represent your health or area of effect healing spells. There is nothing wrong with spiderweb going 3d although it would definitely be a challenge for Jeff and they should make sure their gameplay is solid before going for eye candy. -------------------- How do signature's work? -Keep Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Monday, October 20 2003 11:23
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Which game was rated 17% in PC Gamer? If it's Galactic Core, I'll just laugh. Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, October 20 2003 11:31
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Regardless of whether or not snazzy graphics are good, Spiderweb doesn't have the budget to work with them. And if they were made, Jeff would lose a number of customers who don't have computers new enough to handle all the advances in graphics and sound. And in the end, I don't think he would make any profit over expenses; he simply can't compete with huge companies that have graphics teams and million dollar budgets. —Alorael, who finds Spiderweb graphics refreshing. Especially since playing involves more playing and less sitting around while areas load. Even GF/GF2 are quick about it. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Monday, October 20 2003 12:42
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PC Gamer's motto is something along the lines of HUAUGUGUGHAUGUGHAGUGHGHGHALGAHGHGLAGL GAHGHGLLALALGHGLAHGLAHGUAALGHALGHALGH GLALGUHGLAHGLHG *cough* GUAUGHGUGHGHG Think nothing of it. -------------------- You are my precious thing Thing of speed and beauty, You are my precious thing As long as you remain beneath me -- Big Black Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Monday, October 20 2003 12:59
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I agree that the graphics, and especially the sound and music could be improved substantially in Spiderweb games. However, I despise the "real 3D" games that have camera angles and force you to spend much of your playing time trying to find your party instead of actually playing the game. I tried playing Myth II one time, but stopped after a short time because I found dealing with camera angles to be exasperating. I would say the ideal levels of graphics and sound might be found in a game like Starcraft, where the graphics and sound were excellent, and did not get in the way of playability. -------------------- "Let a man find himself, in distinction from others, on top of two wheels with a chain- at least in a poor country like Russia- and his vanity begins to swell out like his tires. In America it takes an automobile to produce this effect."- Leon Trotsky Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1249
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written Monday, October 20 2003 13:17
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I play Baldur's Gate, Geneforge, Exile and Angband the most. Angband is another ASCII-based game. It and its variants are free. I may sometimes use large amounts of time playing Baldur's Gate - I never get really anywhere in an hour because of the loading times. That's frustrating. Angband may be very interesting for a while but it lacks a plot (other than "fight your way to level 99 and defeat the monster"). So, I find Spiderweb games the most fun. Hmmm. I love almost all the sounds and graphics of Exile but I hate some sounds of Geneforge very much. Especially the town background sound. But Geneforge graphics are more than good enough for me. - Milu [ Monday, October 20, 2003 13:18: Message edited by: Milu ] Posts: 259 | Registered: Saturday, June 1 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3417
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written Monday, October 20 2003 17:46
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The Spiderweb games are great games. As are Angband, ADOM, and the other Rouge-likes. I enjoy all of these "old-school" games because, like games made during the "golden age" of the early 80's, gameplay comes first and special effects are made only in support of the gameplay (this was originally done out of necessity, since complex graphics and sound were not possible). The original Pitfall, a great game by anyone's standards, had to execute all of its instructions in something like 57 clock cycles. Not a lot of time for complicated graphics. Similar games like M.U.L.E., Zork, and the early Ultima games were designed to make people think, first and foremost. But. Some of the newer games are really worth checking out. You are selling yourself short if you don't try a game just because of the "newfangled" graphics. The learning curve is often steep, but the games can be superb once you've ascended the peak. For example, I've really enjoyed all of the recent Might and Magic games, the recent Wizardry games, Morrowind, and some of the Baldur's Gate engine games, just to name a few. Morrowind in particular was the best implementation I've seen of a true RPG in a 3-D environment. The only part I didn't care for was the lack of a turn-based option for combat. I think that some of the best features of the Spiderweb games are difficult-to-impossible to implement in a 3D engine. These include the use of tiles for mapping and movement, which introduce lots of fun situations such as being able to deduce the presence of secret doors or tunnels, and the tactical fun of being able to position characters to block monsters and protect other characters in combat (just like the old "gold box" games). Another great feature is the fluidity of the scripting system, which is not hampered by what can be visually rendered on-screen, so that quests and story events can be complex and rewarding, with most of the "rendering" done inside the head of the player. A similar analogy in my mind is the fact that most people like the book better than the movie, because no movie can reproduce the fantastic imagery that people come up with themselves as they read. However, modern technology has really started to allow movies to pull even with books. For example, "The Matrix" is an incredible movie by almost anyone's standard, and it's hard to imagine some of the imagery in that movie to be describable in book format. Now, you wouldn't refuse to see the Matrix just because it was advertised as using CG, would you? The same is true for the recent spate of CRPG's using 3D graphics and other modern technological enhancements. Don't dismiss them out-of-hand just because of the use of technology. On the other paw, the Spiderweb games are and always will be masterpieces of gameplay, and I'd hate to see them change a good thing. There will probably always be a niche for such games, just like there will probably always be a niche for books over movies. A final point – the tools for developing a good 3D game are not so expensive as you might think. Most of the required elements are available as open-source tools, and the creation of the art is actually easier in some ways than making BMP files that actually look like something at 800 x 600 resolution. Check out the 3-D Bard's Tale for a good example. -------------------- This space intentionally left blank. Posts: 70 | Registered: Monday, September 1 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3320
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written Monday, October 20 2003 20:33
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Boy, I feel like such a loser here. I see everyone talking about action games that I never even heard of. That's probably because I am from the wrong generation. Being born in 1985 and only ever playing NES, Sega, and Nintendo 64 games. I am becoming interested in all of the other games that are being mentioned. What are they about? I tried playing Baldur's Gate 2 once and didn't understand it. Not to mention it comes with a book of instructions as thick as a tome. And I do not have THAT much time on my hands. I don't read much as so as it is. I played the game Myst once and enjoyed it very much. But when I borrowed Riven: The Sequel To Myst out of the library, I only got a short distance into the game before I became hopelessly confused. I might give Homeworld a try, seeing that I was never able to play it as it requested an Internet connection and I had none at the time. I have played various types of computer games, very few of them advanced in any way. One of my favorite computer games of all time is from 1995. It is called, Titanic: Adventure Out of Time. For fans of the Titanic, it is once of the most realistic 3D games I have ever played. You are British Spy on board the Titanic. And you must come out of your cabin to complete your mission on the night that the Titanic strikes the iceberg. A very thrilling game. I recommend it to everyone. The 3D graphics are excellent and you can find out more about it from this website. Collectible Titanic Experiences This site here is better. Titanic: Adventure Out of Time Now please give me the names of some of these other games so that I might check them out. And tell me what they are about? [ Monday, October 20, 2003 20:53: Message edited by: Murder, She Wrote ] -------------------- Mrs. Peacock: "Everything all right?" Colonel Mustard: "Yep. Two Corpses. Everything's fine." "Keep your wits about you, the game is afoot!!" - Sherlock Holmes Posts: 935 | Registered: Friday, August 8 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3238
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 01:11
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Heh. I was born in 1987, so no worries, MSW. Actually, I'm a heavy gamer, and my dad had some old games, like the D&D Pools of Radiance, Win, Lose or Draw, Space Quest, Lesiure Suit Larry 1 & 3 (Heh, I never did get to play 3), Commander Keen, Icon (Some adventure game), and LHX? Something like that, it was a helicopter game... *Sighs* Those were good days... Now I got Andband on my computer, in which I died about 14 TIMES. Died by Starvation once, lol. I play older games usually, since they somehow have a charm to most games. I have yet to try ADOM, but I have played this older game called Exslior or somewhat like that... I can't remember the name cause its so long. Oh, and to not stray off topic, Spiderweb will never change. Period. Everyone likes their work now, so why change in the first place? Just to make people mad and invite new ones? Forget it. Jeff is fine the way he is now. -------------------- "Friendship is two things: Trust, and sharing. I personally see it as a business opportunity." -Random Quote Posts: 203 | Registered: Friday, July 18 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 14:31
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Jeff's games are not as high tech as alot of the new games you find in gaming magazines, but there is something very satisfying about playing a simple game without the huge text book of rules and all the explosive graphics. -------------------- I be rockin' da paradise baby. Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2339
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 14:59
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quote:Some people, like me, have WAY outdated computer parts not not much space. But the Spidweb games are the cure! They require only a little space, and they can run great with WAY outdated computers! If Spidweb went into the more 'modern" game programming, people with WAY outdated computers couldn't go anywhere to get new games that have low requirements and take little space! So Spidweb should stick with it's reliable "Jeff "Vogel" programming style. To be honest...JEFF MAKES AMAZING GAMES! So he doesn't need the flashy stuff other programmers use. I'm expecting a "Very well put, Zephyr". [ Tuesday, October 21, 2003 15:00: Message edited by: Alienated Zephyr Tempest ] -------------------- This is MY link. Click here,or here for the yoga dance mix!Click here to get to the misc. boards! Attack, icons, attack!THIS PAGE ROCKS!! Vicious virus stalks the web, has already infected over 150 computers: read more! We have tried to not harm anything in the making of this commercial, but we failed miserably. One Small Step for man, one giant leap(SHCKXXXXXX)STOP POKING ME!!! -Starcraft Observers R.I.P-Here lies NSI, may this rp be remembered. Posts: 1779 | Registered: Monday, December 9 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 16:09
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In a more buisness oriented opinion: Why should Jeff waste money and time with graphics and high tech gameplay if people will still buy his games? Remember, thinking about the customer doesn't exactly mean you care about them (in a friendly manner.) Because Jeff makes games that work for a wide variety of computers, he makes more money. I'm not saying Jeff is a cold hearted bastard, but the main reason buisnesses care about their customers, is because they want lots of money. More money = happiness Edit: quote:No. [ Tuesday, October 21, 2003 16:11: Message edited by: Infuriated Slith ] -------------------- I be rockin' da paradise baby. Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Skip to My Lou
Member # 40
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 16:56
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I think the simpler graphics make for better gameplay if for no other reason than that you are are concentrating on the gameplay not looking at the pretty graphics. The older-style graphics also give the games a nice classic feel. And to MSW; I was born in '85 so it must just be you, not the generation. -------------------- Need a pet? Need cheap labor? Buy a Moose! Take the Personality Test! INTJ 78% 33% 44% 22% Huzzah for the Masterminds! Posts: 1629 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3417
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 17:59
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Some comments on earlier points made: FWIW, I thought that Riven was a real letdown compared to Myst. Also, I thought that Baldur's Gate 2 was somewhat of a letdown compared to BG 1. BG1 was a great game for D&D fans, although there were some complaints that it implemented "AD&D 2.5" instead of either v2.0 or v3.0. Also the pathfinding was so frustrating at times that I ended up playing as a hacked singleton (high strength to carry stuff) rather than deal with moving 5 people around. Killing Drizzt and stealing his stuff by circle-jerking him with level 1 skeleton summons has to rank right up there in the top moments in CRPG history, however. Angband, ADOM, Nethack, and so forth are very challenging games. ADOM in particular is fiendish. The learning curve is overwhelming at first. The gameplay is well worth it however. FYI, most of the older games that I mentioned in the first post were either CRPG's or strategy games, not action. Most of them came out around 1982-1985, which I kind of think of as the "golden age" of computer games. Check out the lemon site for some great gaming nostalgia. And I totally agree that Spiderweb should not change a winning formula. I'd really like to see an "Avernum 4" or something along those lines, however. Maybe this time you could play as Empire citizens and have to go "down under" to solve the quest. -------------------- This space intentionally left blank. Posts: 70 | Registered: Monday, September 1 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3320
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 22:37
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Like I said before. I didn't get a more modern computer until late 1998 or early 1999. Even then, my computer was a 1993 or 1994 model. We are poor. At the time, I bought a computer from a man who built them for a cheap price. I ended up with a horrifically old computer as the date mentioned above, and I paid only $135 for it at the time. It took two computers later and $636 until I got the blessed one I have now. I attribute my lack of knowledge of computer games to the fact that I didn't get the Internet until June of this year. Also because of my parents lack of knowledge on how to get to the nearest mall. There are several malls within 35 miles of my home. But my parents did then and still do hate traveling long distances. In fact, we never went to the city to do any sort of shopping. Not until just this year. Within 4 miles of my house there was a store called Ames. They went out of business this time last year and no business ever took over the building again. It is the same distance from my house to our capital city and the same distance to a city to the north. Because the area is slightly more rural to the northern city, my parents were able to learn how to get there with the help of my brother and now go up there to do shopping at the Wal-Mart up there. A total of at least 32 miles away. I live out in the middle of the countryside, and I enjoy living there. I wouldn't move to the city for any amount of money. Because of our lack of money, travel, and shopping experience, I get lost when I go to a mall or a city. I have traveled so little in my lifetime that I can't negotiate major highways without losing my way. No, I can't drive either, but even observing the route to the city makes me feel overwhelmed because I am so unused to traveling distances. I have led a terribly deprived life. Despite being deprived in so many areas such as being unable to go to a mall even once a year, not knowing how to use highway exit signs on a major highway, not having the money to buy a good computer until I was 17, not having much money do buy anything period, never having the internet at home until June of this year, not knowing anything about the latest fashions or really caring for any of them that matter, having had to learn most vital things about life from other students in school, being 18 and having no interest in learning to drive, and much much more, you would say that I have never really lived. Yet, despite not having knowledge about all those seemingly major things, I have more knowledge about things like old radio shows from the 30s, 40s, and 50s, Egypt, old England, the Roman Empire, Ancient Greece, shipwrecks, music, and older movies than the average person. That all having been said, I attribute my lack of knowledge of other computer games to the fact that I didn't a good recent computer until I was 17, I didn't have the internet at home until June of this year, and my parents never took me anywhere where I could see computer games being advertised. Most of you people here have had the luck of having the Internet for many years. I have only had it for 4 months. Most of what I know about computers and the Internet I had to teach myself. My parents don't know how to use a computer and never will. I have been deprived for too long in my life, and that is my reason for my lack of knowledge of computer games. -------------------- Mrs. Peacock: "Everything all right?" Colonel Mustard: "Yep. Two Corpses. Everything's fine." "Keep your wits about you, the game is afoot!!" - Sherlock Holmes Posts: 935 | Registered: Friday, August 8 2003 07:00 |
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