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Europa, God, and you, or Where it all fits. in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #32
quote:
By Lenar:
Stillness, welcome to Spiderweb. You will find that most members are either agnostics or hard-core atheists.

This is the statement that inspired this poll, as you may have guessed. I was curious how accurate it was and with over 40 responses, there may be valid data.

15 out of 47 are either theists or deists. (32%)
15 out of 57 are atheists (32%)
and 15 out of 47 are agnostic (32%)
Of those 15 agnostics, 11 also consider themselves theists or deists, pushing that group up to 26/47 or over 55%. They may not all share specific beliefs, but they are believers in a something.

I therefore conclude that Lenar's initial impulse is a little wrong, but quite an understandable one. There is definitely no overwhelming majority, and there are plenty of qualified people to discuss the metaphysical.

Oh, and you two animists? You are wrong. :P

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #71
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

It feels right and natural and we’re happy. I look at family and friends who don’t do things God’s way and they simply don’t do as well. My experience tells me that and the statistics I gave you all support it, so I know it’s not my view.
In the good old days, and by good I mean bad, people believed that litters of rats spontaneously arose from piles of old rags. Post hoc, propter hoc is considered a logic fallacy, not a logical dreadnought.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Europa, God, and you, or Where it all fits. in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #25
So, a theist then?

The reason I was soooo vague is that there are huge groups of folks who have differing identities which they associate with as God. They even (gasp) use different names and have different assumptions about their deity. In my belief, if there is a god, then it would be extremely presumptuous of me to assume that the belief set that I espoused would be the correct one. Given the common set of Christian boundaries, it would be far more likely that those beliefs chosen by me as the One true correct set, is in fact a misdirection offered up by Satan.

So, theist, deist, animist, agnostic, atheist. Pick your philosophical bent. :)

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #66
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Sarcasmon:

I would be remiss if I failed to remind Stillness that this is not a religion of God. It is, and always has been, a religion of men.
Yes, I am reminded that you keep making this claim with no evidence at all to back it up or refute the proof to the contrary.

And with that I recede. You are steadfast in your belief that God is responsible for the Bible, despite absence of proof. And quoting the document in question is not proof. If it were, anyone could make any claim and automatically have it deemed proven. Flying Tomatoes anyone? My claim, in total, is that human beings did those things. You can't deny that. You can claim to believe that those things wouldn't have happened without divine inspiration, and that's fine. But you can't claim that as fact, especially using the Bible as proof. I mean, sure you can claim it, but you won't find much belief in that claim.

Occam's razor need not apply in this case, since belief can always trump reality.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #55
I would be remiss if I failed to remind Stillness that this is not a religion of God. It is, and always has been, a religion of men. Men observed Jesus, or at least claimed to have. Men wrote down the inspirations provided to them by the apostles. Other men lost those writings, and then found them. Some men translated them, several times. And then some Nicea men decided which of the memories should be preserved in a nice handy packet for other men to intone at ceremonious occasions. This doesn't make it a wrong thing, or worse in any way, but it assuredly makes it something other than a religion of or by a God.

It's nice that you have a good way to live your life, but it isn't something that you claim it to be. Fortunately that doesn't matter, until you tell other people that it is something that it isn't. I appreciate your concerns about society, but I don't share your conclusions. And that's just fine with me, as I hope it is with you.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #46
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Physical nature itself tells us that men and women are different and have different roles in the family arrangement. We now know that our brains even work differently (as if we needed science to tell us that). It's clear to me that when the roles are dictated by the Bible, which says that men and women are complementary but different pieces of a whole marriages are stronger than when the values of this society are followed. Just like two brains on one body or two steering wheels in a car, two leaders in a family would be bad. One leader who does not abuse his authority, loves his wife, considers her first, and follows Jesus' example in self-sacrifice and serving others works beautifully. Women and men are both happy and satisfied. I see it and live it. That's the kind of logic and proof that I used when I selected the religion I wanted to be a part of. If it wasn't practical I wouldn't go for it.

"Family" is about roles. There are plenty of societal influences which trump anything natural. You seem to be throwing these words around without understanding that in most cases they don't work. Men and women are different, but at a biological level. Like the male and female of most mammalian species, they play different roles in propagation of the species. There are superficial differences in size and shape, and the chemistry is different at the post-fetal stage. It is interesting to note that we start as single celled organisms which lack gender. If nothing else, that one fact must tell you that we are equal.
About brains working differently at a gender level, I gotta say that it seems brains work differently no matter what. There are math people, art people, detail people, people people, loners, leaders and subservients. It doesn't matter a bit whether they can bear children.

But hey, if you and your wife are happy with the roles that you have accepted, then great! Like Drew's wife, mine would have a few pretty choice words with me if I ever tried to pull that on her. We each choose a life role to portray, and only when we start trying to enforce roles do we get in trouble. And we don't want any trouble 'round these parts...

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #35
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

“Our technology has improved and there are more people to kill” is not acceptable as an excuse for “the best times in history” when 57 times as many people were killed than in the centuries before it if you average them out. Maybe for you it’s OK, not for me. It’s also not OK to keep seeing genocide rear it’s head.

” Since 1989, 97 out of 103 armed conflicts were internal. And 70 percent of all war casualties since World War II have been civilians, rising to more than 90 percent in the 1990s.”

This is from the same study that I quoted from earlier. This is also quite troubling. And it’s not like we’re learning, because at this very moment the country that I live in is engaged in this very type of war where anywhere from 70-100,000 (and possible more) civilians have died. In the country in which I live there is slavery. In the area I live in, Detroit, living standards are decreasing for the majority. The middle class and the poor are getting poorer. Children are having sex at a younger age, getting pregnant, diseases, are emotionally ill-equipped, and are more violent than in just a few decades ago. More people divorce than stay married. And these are just a handful of the problems.

Please, cite that study on war casualties. It is something I've been interested in about this conversation since it began. But overall I am in agreement with some previous posters, including Kel, Thuryl, SoT, and Drew. You seem to be drawing some conclusions based on available evidence without letting the conclusion be examined. We are offering different, and far more compelling, conclusions, but those don't seem to fit with your need to have some drama and righteous offense.

Sure man, Christianity (that religious stance taken from the stories written about (not by) a guy named J C) is a worthwhile code by which you can live your life. It appears better than some other codes, but also worse than some. What it does have is a huge marketing campaign, fear-based propagation, and a heck of a back story. It seems almost easier to fall into that religious sect than any other, at least in this country, merely for the sake of convenience. After all, we humans like being told what to do in our lives.

Being a fellow NPR flunkie, you must have listened to Fresh Air yesterday (7/11/07) and heard the two authors talking about their book on Victor Bout. He's an arm merchant who habitually supplies to both sides of a conflict (Gaiman? Gaiman? Gaiman?) and has been characterized as a thoroughly amoral man. He seems an extreme example, but is this what you mean about the 100% disciple of Christ world being better than the 100% real world?

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
The 24 Hour Contest in Blades of Avernum
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #15
Okay, here is the deal.

To indicate you will be playing, send an email to Lazarus, and then another immediately prior to starting the 24hour clock. Within 24 hours send him a zipped copy of your scenario. Start your beta testing. Send Lazarus the beta-tested version within a time limit, maybe 3 days?

This means that within 3 days of the end of the window, Laz should have a pile of scenarios to put on an eyes-only board at SV for judging. Then, unlike on ubb, the board can be made open for public viewing. And scorn of the losers. Always important for us non-designers to spend plenty of time scorning.

Edit changed limit to 3, in line with op

[ Wednesday, July 11, 2007 21:51: Message edited by: Jumpin' Sarcasmon ]

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
The 24 Hour Contest in Blades of Avernum
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #12
Why not just do an honor system? Set up a week or two in which the contest is open, and then let the designers choose which continuous 24 hour period is best for them. Then, everyone wins!

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Europa, God, and you, or Where it all fits. in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #7
It pleases me to have given you joy. This poll actually took less time to create than the last one, and seems a little more straightforward.

I'm curious about Tyran's remarks, as the poll was strictly philosophical in nature.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Europa, God, and you, or Where it all fits. in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #0
Some definitions:

1. Atheist - The opposite of theist, which wiki calls the encompassing belief in any divinity. Therefore, for the purposes of this poll, an atheist does not believe in any divinity.

2. Agnostic - An agnostic believes that it is not possible to have absolute or certain knowledge of God or gods[wiki], although this can be strictly at the individual level and doesn't extend universally.

3. Theist - A believer in a deity or multiple deities.

4. Deist - An individual that holds that a deity(ies) exists and it's governed by reason. You don't believe in supernatural events or acts of God.

5. Animist - One that holds the belief that each tangible object contains a spirit, that everything is alive, or that each living body has a soul.

As an offshoot of the Europa thread, and Lenar's offshoot, this is an inquiry into the spiritual nature of the SW community. And most certainly it has been done before. Just not in 2007!

Edit - Dang it! Re: question 2, if you wanted to answer "This question doesn't apply," please choose "No." The trained monkey which created this poll has been severely punished for the lack of proper answers.

[ Wednesday, July 11, 2007 10:14: Message edited by: Jumpin' Sarcasmon ]

Poll Information
This poll contains 2 question(s). 8 user(s) have voted.
You may not view the results of this poll without voting.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #14
quote:
If I can sum up your point as follows:
As humanity strays further from the teachings of Christ, we become more apt to murder,rape, and commit acts of gross atrocity. To wit, we engage in acts of mass war which decimate the population at an unprecedented rate.

Is that pretty much it? The reason I made that point is because in your first post regarding war, you didn't call it "world war," yet later said you did. Therefore I've changed the term "world" to "mass" in order to reflect the evident nature of fast and reliable transport as a mechanism for war. The Mongol hordes engaged in mass war. The Persians engaged in mass war. The American natives engaged in mass war. Polynesians engaged in mass war. Europeans, Romans, Africans, we all have engaged in mass war.

It is an unusual event to see death tolls in the millions, but in terms of effect on a population, there have been far greater wars than the Great War. When all males in a city of 10,000 were killed, is that a lesser event than WW 2? The issue that I see is that people are continuously seeking to expand their territory, whether it be personal space, social space, or real space. We will keep doing so despite the traditions inspired by the original peacenik. It is nice that humans aspire to be (insert 10 Commandments here,) but it isn't our nature. And as a learned response, it seems to be a denial of our true selves.
As I'm not a believer in the traditions of Christ, I can't really tell you what a world may be like if those teachings ascribed to him were universally followed, but it sounds very "sameish." Overcrowding would be a huge issue, which in turn would lead to more desires for personal space, more denial of that need, and then a shedding of the artifice once more.
My world, aka where we are now, can be pretty much summed up by looking around.

As far as which is better, I guess that depends on the person. I enjoy that which I have now, and it appears you do as well. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by animalistic, but if you are implying that I view humans as just another species on the planet, then you are right. I'm surprised that anyone rational person could see it any differently.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #9
Huh, I didn't know that we could be broken down so cleanly. I do believe that there are powers beyond my ken, but I don't believe that there is anything to the Judeo-Christian/Muslim/Buddhist religions that can't be explained away by fear-mongering to support the formation of fledgling society/civilization. So that makes me not an atheist, and maybe a light-duty agnostic.

So, who are the hardcore atheists? And more importantly, do we need a poll? :D

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #5
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

I didn’t say that there weren’t large scale wars. I said there weren’t world wars. That was absolutely unprecedented. Technology played a great role in the wars, it always has. It didn’t make them world wars though. The Americas were discovered centuries before 1914, yet there were no world wars. If you don’t think there is anything else unique about them then check the civilian casualties.

quote:
Originally written by Stillness, 12 hours earlier:
Disregard for Human Life: In the past century more blood has been shed in wars than in the 1900 years prior to that. High regard for human life (which Jesus taught) would not allow for war. Is that arbitrary?
I think this is where I have a problem. You play fast and loose with hyperbolic "facts," and then backpedal and re-define your terms so that your "fact" can't be disproven. You know, it is okay to be wrong. I've been wrong, and I would wager that most everyone here has been wrong. I do admire your steadfast belief in your religion, but I don't share it. I, as a skeptic, have a hard time with unwavering belief in anything not tangible. Even your Golden Rule (as you claim to be a disciple of Christ, that makes it your rule) is suspect. It is a great maxim if you are trying to peacefully co-exist in a utopian landscape, but when applied universally it fails. This is a world of eat-or-be-eaten, and the long list of extinct species is titled "The Golden Rule." If Christian belief in the after-life is good enough for you, then so be it. But I will continue to live in a world of the corpus, and let others worry and fret about what may or may not be happening after death.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Life on Europa in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #39
It's likely that there is life on other objects in the universe. It is extremely unlikely that we will find this life, or even recognize it. In the unfortunate event that we do find and recognize it, we most assuredly will destroy it.

Also, I'm curious about this "statistic" regarding war deaths after 1900 and those incurred in the prior 1900 years. Given our precision in records only over the past 400 years, specific to European nations, how was this data gathered? How was "war death" defined?

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Video Game Addiction in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #138
I'm convinced!

Oh wait. I don't believe that.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Seperated from a loved one. in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #7
Given the content of the OP's first post here, it seemed redundant and unnecessary to include that long absent greeting.

Plus, it only looks good when oldbies do it.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Message Board in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #41
These are stupid uses of nested quotes.

I give them an 11.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Seperated from a loved one. in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #3
Welcome to Spiderweb, ... ...

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Video Game Addiction in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #121
Botanists can isolate a particular plant chemical (natural) and synthesize a chemical (artificial) that has a particular, known, effect on the human body. While the origins may be "of nature," the end result drug is not. Thinking of Taxol here, among others.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Quick Blood Pressure Dude Question in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #11
I'll go ahead and applaud.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Video Game Addiction in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #113
Aren't some botonists still trying to synthesize the rain forest into a cure for cancer?

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
cussing in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #37
...not to mention that it is already an antagonistic scenario, unlike most brunches.

But really, who eats brunch anymore?

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
cussing in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #34
Well, this discussion has certainly lost it's charm.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Video Game Addiction in General
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #98
With alcoholism, it is the constant application of alcohol to liver which causes some of the bodily damage. The brain chemical thing, the drunken euphoria, is different, and also causes organ damage. In either case, it is the repeated application, rather than the isolated application, which is the problem. I agree that Russian society has a particular problem with alcoholism that is not easily solved. Similar problems have existed across the planet and history, and they eventually are solved. In the meantime, more and more people that are susceptible to alcoholism are erased from society, but few would be eligible for a Darwin award.

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WWtNSD?

Synergy - "I don't get it."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00

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