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BoA BUGS v6.0 in Blades of Avernum
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Friday, June 23 2006 12:28 Profile Homepage #1
New bug, causing the need to revive the topic: as far as I can tell, the attitude of the party is 0. One might expect it to be 3 (party-friendly), but I don't think that it is. I don't think that the docs mention this (although I may have missed it), and they should.

Also, I've pared down the list very slightly, getting rid of the more ridiculous bugs ("sometimes I see crashes").

EDIT: When a statistic gets very large (typically over 100 for normal stats, 200 for Useful Skills, although I can't say for sure that it's consistent), the game will eventually (when the stat gets checked, perhaps?) give a message saying, "Error: File corruption caused too-high skill. Skill being reset to 0. Can correct it manually with editor." This is a problem for very high-level parties (say, 50 or above), which should naturally have Health above 500. This doesn't seem to have any in-game effect (except a weird 0 on the stat sheet), but it's annoying to get these error messages.

[ Friday, June 23, 2006 13:11: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
BoA BUGS v6.0 in Blades of Avernum Editor
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Friday, June 23 2006 12:26 Profile Homepage #0
The topic lives, despite flames and spamming on the previous incarnation! For anyone unfamiliar with the concept, here are the ground rules:

1. Bugs should be real bugs. That means you should be able to give precise instructions about how to reproduce them. They are not features that you wish were included but aren't. They must be things that don't work as described (or really ought to be described differently).

2. They should not already be listed either in this post or on Spidweb's bugs page. We want new bugs, if they exist.

3. If you have any further information about a bug (it's been fixed, for example), post and say so. I have notes in parentheses after many bugs.

Known undocumented bugs/problems in Mac-BoA v1.1.2 or Win-BoA v1.0.3:
Scripting problems
* Items don't stack when given via char_give_item (so if you give three potions of the same kind, the character ends up with three different potions). This doesn't happen with reward_give or other item management calls as far as I know.
* Sometimes searchable terrain breaks. For certain terrain with the searchable and container attribute, they are only searchable if there is something inside the container. This means that the call te_can_look_at doesn't do a lot. Additionally, sometimes terrain becomes searchable for reasons that are obscure to me (custom hills, for instance). I can provide a scenario demonstrating this if needed.
* The call put_stain_on_space sometimes does nothing when attempting to remove a stain. This is a bit unpredictable, but most of the time that I've tried it, it does nothing. It also works fine putting a stain down, just not removing it.
* As described here, in a dialog box, choosing the second dialog choice always returns the number 2, even if the dialog choice was added as the third option.
* Custom scripts for joined NPCs don't do much. Everything except the DEAD_STATE is ignored. (Is this still true? Do any other states work?)
* The call num_killed_in_town always returns 0. (I have not verified this.)
* The call create_text_bubble cannot be called from a terrain script, even though the docs say that it can. (I have not verified this.)
* Something odd and undocumented is going on with the clear_town call. The description of the problem is here.
* The calls set_terrain, set_floor, and set_height only inconsistently work outdoors. They most often do nothing.

Corescendata and default graphic errors
* In corescendata, Augmented Giant (creature 135) ought to have the line "cr_which_sheet_upper = 1618;"
* The default rakshasa image needs realignment -- it has a black line on it.
* The slith avatar, in order to match Avernum 1, should not have the graphic of a gorgon, which is what it has now. Two calls need to be added: cr_which_sheet = 1532 and cr_icon_adjust = 2, as Bahssikava does.
* In corescendata2.txt Terrains #172 and #173 (fences) have an incorrect name. The line te_name = "Fence"; needs to be added to them.
* In corescendata2.txt Terrain #331 and #332 (underground hillside cave entrances) import the incorrect terrain. This causes problems with the automatic hills functionality of the editor. It will also cause the party to be drawn incorrectly when upon these terrains.
* In corescendata2.txt Terrain #367 (ruined statue) is missing the upper half. The lines te_second_icon = 1; and te_second_icon_offset_y = -55; need to be added to correct this.
* Graphics sheet 680, icon 52, is incorrectly drawn. It needs to be flipped horizontally to be correct.
* Graphics sheet 768, icon 8, has 3 off-white pixels.
* The efreet (creature 174) has cr_natural_armor defined twice, the first time as 15 and the second time as 50.
* The default Eyebeast graphic (1552) has its icons in the wrong order. This means that the creature will appear to be facing south when it's actually facing north in the editor, east when west, west when south, and north when east.
* As far as I can tell, aranea (and elder aranea) default to carrying pots. I'm assuming that item 373 was aranea fangs, once upon a time.
* Floors 85 and 86 have fl_ed_which_icon reversed. Floor 85 should have icon 7, and floor 86 should have icon 6.
* The default Asp graphic (1551) has its icons in the wrong order. North and west are reversed.
* Graphic 1654 in Blades of Avernum Art (the swarthy gal with a green shirt and brown armor) has no sword-with-shield-and-armor graphic. The graphic of her armored with sword-and-shield is missing the shield.

Documentation problems
* The call move_to_new_town can't be called from an INIT_STATE, a START_STATE, a creature script, or a terrain script, even if you distance the call from the state with set_state_continue, run_town_script, or run_scenario_script. (I put this under documentation because apparently this would be hard to change.)
* The call it_bonus may be described inaccurately. It does not provide any protection for rings, necklaces, and bracelets, and instead of preventing the given amount of damage, it prevents a random amount of damage up to the given amount. (I have not verified this.)
* The call get_unlock_spell_strength is undocumented.
* The constants BASE_TRAP_XP (which is 50) and NUM_CHARS (which is 120) are not documented. In fact, it'd be nice to have a list of constants somewhere like the one that Khoth posted. Also, the other reserved variable names (like the Spidweb-bug-page-listed "shop") should be listed somewhere.
* As far as I can tell, the attitude of the party is 0, which should be mentioned under the get_attitude description.
* Arguably not a documentation problem, using force_start_day(-1) makes what_day_of_year always return 0, but what_day_of_scenario still works fine. This should at least be mentioned somewhere. Also, what_day_of_scenario starts at 0, despite the fact that the games in-game calendar starts at 1, which should at least be mentioned.

Miscellaneous engine issues
* Outdoors signs don't work sometimes. (Does this still not work? Jeff claims that he fixed it for v1.1.2.)
* If cursed items are placed on ground/in a container in the editor, they lose their cursed ability.
* Enter-combat-end-combat bug: you can get placed in totally nonsensical locations when ending combat. If you enter and then end combat immediately, you get placed one space forward. This allows you to skip special rectangles extremely easily unless specifically prevented from doing so by a designer.
* Beam projectors malfunction wildly in close quarters, next to walls, in varying heights, etc. I have a small utility scenario to demonstrate a number of ways in which this can occur.
* When a regular PC is next to a spot and you look at that spot, you search the spot. If only a joined NPC (and not a regular NPC) is next to a spot, however, you don't search the spot. (It just seemed odd to me. Not sure it's a "bug" bug, though.)
* Putting a town border right next to the edge of the town causes weird behavior: you can't exit the town, the town doesn't match the edge, etc.
* When a creature can't get to a location that it's trying to get to, the game slows to a crawl. For example, when a creature gets lured out of a building through an open door, the door gets closed, and then the creature tries to return_to_start, the game slows. (This has been reported on Windows, and I have not verified it personally.)
* Unlike the traditional Orb of Thralni, items with it_ability_1 = 213 can give the party extra rounds of flight while the party is still in the air.
* When a statistic gets very large (perhaps over 100 or 200), the game will eventually give a message saying, "Error: File corruption caused too-high skill. Skill being reset to 0. Can correct it manually with editor." This is a problem for very high-level parties, which should naturally have Health at these levels.

Unhandled Exceptions
Various things cause Unhandled Exception errors on Windows that cause BoA to quit entirely without giving a proper error message. These are extremely hard to debug for Mac designers, since they do not reproduce in the same way on a Mac, except for a few that are noted. Among them:
* Using a terrain or floor graphic that doesn't exist. This is a problem with wallsets that are not complete, for example: if you place a wall with a door from a wallset that doesn't include a door (ie, cave wall), this causes an unhandled exception.
* Setting a creature facing a direction greater than 7 -- ie, set_character_facing(6,8).
* Running the death animation of a creature with cr_small_or_large_template set wrong -- that is, if the creature's graphic is small but cr_small_or_large_template = 1 in the scenario's custom objects script, then BoA crashes without an error message and quits. This happens on Mac, too.
* Over-running the string limit. I got an unhandled exception in Vasskolis when I tried to display a message from the text buffer that was longer than 256 characters. I'm not sure if over-running the text buffer itself was the problem or if trying to display it was the problem, but either way, the over-long string didn't give the over-long string error like it does on a Mac.
* If you try to use a string variable while nothing's in it (i.e., you forgot the get_buffer_text call), BoA dies. On Mac-BoA v1.1.2, it crashes, gives no error message, and quits. I got this with a message_dialog call, but I imagine a print_str or text bubble would give the same response. Also, using a dialog string with nothing in it causes the same error.

[ Thursday, July 06, 2006 07:20: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
BoA BUGS v6.0 in Blades of Avernum
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Friday, June 23 2006 12:26 Profile Homepage #0
The topic lives, despite flames and spamming on the previous incarnation! For anyone unfamiliar with the concept, here are the ground rules:

1. Bugs should be real bugs. That means you should be able to give precise instructions about how to reproduce them. They are not features that you wish were included but aren't. They must be things that don't work as described (or really ought to be described differently).

2. They should not already be listed either in this post or on Spidweb's bugs page. We want new bugs, if they exist.

3. If you have any further information about a bug (it's been fixed, for example), post and say so. I have notes in parentheses after many bugs.

Known undocumented bugs/problems in Mac-BoA v1.1.2 or Win-BoA v1.0.3:
Scripting problems
* Items don't stack when given via char_give_item (so if you give three potions of the same kind, the character ends up with three different potions). This doesn't happen with reward_give or other item management calls as far as I know.
* Sometimes searchable terrain breaks. For certain terrain with the searchable and container attribute, they are only searchable if there is something inside the container. This means that the call te_can_look_at doesn't do a lot. Additionally, sometimes terrain becomes searchable for reasons that are obscure to me (custom hills, for instance). I can provide a scenario demonstrating this if needed.
* The call put_stain_on_space sometimes does nothing when attempting to remove a stain. This is a bit unpredictable, but most of the time that I've tried it, it does nothing. It also works fine putting a stain down, just not removing it.
* As described here, in a dialog box, choosing the second dialog choice always returns the number 2, even if the dialog choice was added as the third option.
* Custom scripts for joined NPCs don't do much. Everything except the DEAD_STATE is ignored. (Is this still true? Do any other states work?)
* The call num_killed_in_town always returns 0. (I have not verified this.)
* The call create_text_bubble cannot be called from a terrain script, even though the docs say that it can. (I have not verified this.)
* Something odd and undocumented is going on with the clear_town call. The description of the problem is here.
* The calls set_terrain, set_floor, and set_height only inconsistently work outdoors. They most often do nothing.

Corescendata and default graphic errors
* In corescendata, Augmented Giant (creature 135) ought to have the line "cr_which_sheet_upper = 1618;"
* The default rakshasa image needs realignment -- it has a black line on it.
* The slith avatar, in order to match Avernum 1, should not have the graphic of a gorgon, which is what it has now. Two calls need to be added: cr_which_sheet = 1532 and cr_icon_adjust = 2, as Bahssikava does.
* In corescendata2.txt Terrains #172 and #173 (fences) have an incorrect name. The line te_name = "Fence"; needs to be added to them.
* In corescendata2.txt Terrain #331 and #332 (underground hillside cave entrances) import the incorrect terrain. This causes problems with the automatic hills functionality of the editor. It will also cause the party to be drawn incorrectly when upon these terrains.
* In corescendata2.txt Terrain #367 (ruined statue) is missing the upper half. The lines te_second_icon = 1; and te_second_icon_offset_y = -55; need to be added to correct this.
* Graphics sheet 680, icon 52, is incorrectly drawn. It needs to be flipped horizontally to be correct.
* Graphics sheet 768, icon 8, has 3 off-white pixels.
* The efreet (creature 174) has cr_natural_armor defined twice, the first time as 15 and the second time as 50.
* The default Eyebeast graphic (1552) has its icons in the wrong order. This means that the creature will appear to be facing south when it's actually facing north in the editor, east when west, west when south, and north when east.
* As far as I can tell, aranea (and elder aranea) default to carrying pots. I'm assuming that item 373 was aranea fangs, once upon a time.
* Floors 85 and 86 have fl_ed_which_icon reversed. Floor 85 should have icon 7, and floor 86 should have icon 6.
* The default Asp graphic (1551) has its icons in the wrong order. North and west are reversed.
* Graphic 1654 in Blades of Avernum Art (the swarthy gal with a green shirt and brown armor) has no sword-with-shield-and-armor graphic. The graphic of her armored with sword-and-shield is missing the shield.

Documentation problems
* The call move_to_new_town can't be called from an INIT_STATE, a START_STATE, a creature script, or a terrain script, even if you distance the call from the state with set_state_continue, run_town_script, or run_scenario_script. (I put this under documentation because apparently this would be hard to change.)
* The call it_bonus may be described inaccurately. It does not provide any protection for rings, necklaces, and bracelets, and instead of preventing the given amount of damage, it prevents a random amount of damage up to the given amount. (I have not verified this.)
* The call get_unlock_spell_strength is undocumented.
* The constants BASE_TRAP_XP (which is 50) and NUM_CHARS (which is 120) are not documented. In fact, it'd be nice to have a list of constants somewhere like the one that Khoth posted. Also, the other reserved variable names (like the Spidweb-bug-page-listed "shop") should be listed somewhere.
* As far as I can tell, the attitude of the party is 0, which should be mentioned under the get_attitude description.
* Arguably not a documentation problem, using force_start_day(-1) makes what_day_of_year always return 0, but what_day_of_scenario still works fine. This should at least be mentioned somewhere. Also, what_day_of_scenario starts at 0, despite the fact that the games in-game calendar starts at 1, which should at least be mentioned.

Miscellaneous engine issues
* Outdoors signs don't work sometimes. (Does this still not work? Jeff claims that he fixed it for v1.1.2.)
* If cursed items are placed on ground/in a container in the editor, they lose their cursed ability.
* Enter-combat-end-combat bug: you can get placed in totally nonsensical locations when ending combat. If you enter and then end combat immediately, you get placed one space forward. This allows you to skip special rectangles extremely easily unless specifically prevented from doing so by a designer.
* Beam projectors malfunction wildly in close quarters, next to walls, in varying heights, etc. I have a small utility scenario to demonstrate a number of ways in which this can occur.
* When a regular PC is next to a spot and you look at that spot, you search the spot. If only a joined NPC (and not a regular NPC) is next to a spot, however, you don't search the spot. (It just seemed odd to me. Not sure it's a "bug" bug, though.)
* Putting a town border right next to the edge of the town causes weird behavior: you can't exit the town, the town doesn't match the edge, etc.
* When a creature can't get to a location that it's trying to get to, the game slows to a crawl. For example, when a creature gets lured out of a building through an open door, the door gets closed, and then the creature tries to return_to_start, the game slows. (This has been reported on Windows, and I have not verified it personally.)
* Unlike the traditional Orb of Thralni, items with it_ability_1 = 213 can give the party extra rounds of flight while the party is still in the air.
* When a statistic gets very large (perhaps over 100 or 200), the game will eventually give a message saying, "Error: File corruption caused too-high skill. Skill being reset to 0. Can correct it manually with editor." This is a problem for very high-level parties, which should naturally have Health at these levels.

Unhandled Exceptions
Various things cause Unhandled Exception errors on Windows that cause BoA to quit entirely without giving a proper error message. These are extremely hard to debug for Mac designers, since they do not reproduce in the same way on a Mac, except for a few that are noted. Among them:
* Using a terrain or floor graphic that doesn't exist. This is a problem with wallsets that are not complete, for example: if you place a wall with a door from a wallset that doesn't include a door (ie, cave wall), this causes an unhandled exception.
* Setting a creature facing a direction greater than 7 -- ie, set_character_facing(6,8).
* Running the death animation of a creature with cr_small_or_large_template set wrong -- that is, if the creature's graphic is small but cr_small_or_large_template = 1 in the scenario's custom objects script, then BoA crashes without an error message and quits. This happens on Mac, too.
* Over-running the string limit. I got an unhandled exception in Vasskolis when I tried to display a message from the text buffer that was longer than 256 characters. I'm not sure if over-running the text buffer itself was the problem or if trying to display it was the problem, but either way, the over-long string didn't give the over-long string error like it does on a Mac.
* If you try to use a string variable while nothing's in it (i.e., you forgot the get_buffer_text call), BoA dies. On Mac-BoA v1.1.2, it crashes, gives no error message, and quits. I got this with a message_dialog call, but I imagine a print_str or text bubble would give the same response. Also, using a dialog string with nothing in it causes the same error.

[ Thursday, July 06, 2006 07:20: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Ghana knock US out of World Cup in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Thursday, June 22 2006 17:10 Profile Homepage #14
The ref invented a foul inside the penalty box in the U.S.-Ghana game that resulted in the decisive goal. It was pretty bad.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Need help with BoA editor in Blades of Avernum Editor
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Thursday, June 22 2006 17:08 Profile Homepage #5
quote:
Originally written by Lady Bathory:

Make sure the editor is in the Data folder of Blades of Avernum (and not in a sub-folder).
In general, read error messages. This will help you in your BoA career. I know that many of them are not useful, but some of them are.

[ Thursday, June 22, 2006 17:10: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Need help with BoA editor in Blades of Avernum
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Thursday, June 22 2006 17:08 Profile Homepage #5
quote:
Originally written by Lady Bathory:

Make sure the editor is in the Data folder of Blades of Avernum (and not in a sub-folder).
In general, read error messages. This will help you in your BoA career. I know that many of them are not useful, but some of them are.

[ Thursday, June 22, 2006 17:10: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Ghana knock US out of World Cup in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Thursday, June 22 2006 08:43 Profile Homepage #3
Does Bruce Arena keep his job? The U.S. team had talent, but the formations were unhelpful, the spirit was low, and there were some costly errors. The first problem (and to some extent the second) can be blamed on the coach.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
New Scenario Editor in Blades of Exile
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Thursday, June 22 2006 08:41 Profile Homepage #14
Dual-boot Windows and run Win-BoE. That's what I'm going to do when I someday get a new Mac.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Civil Unions disallowed in ACT in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Thursday, June 22 2006 08:39 Profile Homepage #99
quote:
Originally written by Ephesos:

So, if anyone in the U.S. is going to allow gay "marriages" in the religious sense, the Episcopalians will be among the first (if they don't already... I can't remember). I can't help but feel proud of my former denomination. :D
Among the first, yes. The Quakers have inconsistently allowed gay marriage for quite some time now, though.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Civil Unions disallowed in ACT in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Thursday, June 22 2006 06:21 Profile Homepage #96
quote:
Originally written by Hurling Frootmig:

I failed to think over the following paradox:
- a lot of people don't want to see same-sex civil unions in law
- they don't have a proper argument, they just find it terrible/fearful/disgusting
- gay look forward to see the legislation of their civil unions.
So making the law, legalising same-sex civil union will fulfil the democratic principles for the third. But people from the first part will never agree with that, no matter what motives they have. Since I think such is the bigger part of society, this may lead to some harrowing results in society.
The way I get around this problem is that I say that the right to have a family is a basic human right, and human rights supercede the opinion of the majority. I don't care if the majority of people want slavery or not; it's still a basic human right to be free, so the opinion of the majority hardly matters. Human rights transcend the will of the masses.

That said, it's still kind of hard to get legislation across that most people disagree with, which is why I think about how to communicate the right idea to people effectively.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
What's your favorite... in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 18:55 Profile Homepage #3
Flavor of donut: Chocolate with sprinkles.
Spell circle in Nethergate: Nether, I think. I could never get too many of them, though.
Nationality of jumping bean: Mexican, of course.
Animal to keep as a pet: Cats. Big cats. Tigers. If people can have dogs the size of horses, then I want a tiger cub.
Goal in life: Uh...

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Thoughts of mine in The Exile Trilogy
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 16:32 Profile Homepage #15
Style is exactly what it is, I think, although I've had some trouble pinning down exactly what it is about Jeff's style that gives his works their distinctive feel that I've never gotten from BoE scenarios.

Don't get me wrong: I've liked certain BoE scenarios a lot, even (briefly) more than most parts of Jeff's works. The first half of Emulations comes to mind as one instance in which I had more fun than just about any time ever in an Avernum or Geneforge game.

I just wonder what the specific features of his style are — the structure of the quests, perhaps, or the nature of his dungeons, or whatever — that make it so distinctive.

Maybe part of it is that I haven't played any epic BoE scenarios.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Civil Unions disallowed in ACT in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 16:15 Profile Homepage #81
quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

I think the principle that it's extremely rude to presume the worst of someone in the absence of evidence either way holds true in everyday life.
That's not quite the same thing, though. "Absence of evidence" and "absence of proof" are miles apart.

Still, I don't disagree with you in this situation. One should be careful when generalizing, especially when making very broad generalizations.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Civil Unions disallowed in ACT in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 15:24 Profile Homepage #74
quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Does this look like a court of law to you? Innocent until proven guilty is a legal principle, not a moral one.

As for the suggestion raised here that the government stop granting "marriage" licenses and start granting legal statuses that are equivalent but called something else, I agree, but I worry about how to convince the American people that this is a good idea. How could one sell this solution?

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Paulo's package in The Avernum Trilogy
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 12:18 Profile Homepage #1
As far as I know, no.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Civil Unions disallowed in ACT in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 11:07 Profile Homepage #63
Infernal, your position has been rather vague. It appears that you're against the separation of church and state, but you think that, because of religious reasons, the state should not be dealing with marriages but in fact with legal contracts, but you're against all the reasons so far outlined in favor of the very thing that you agree with.

Your justification, as far as I can tell, is that "marriage" is a religious thing and therefore should not be used by the state, despite the fact that you're against the separation of church and state.

What the hell do you actually think?

[ Wednesday, June 21, 2006 11:08: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Civil Unions disallowed in ACT in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 10:26 Profile Homepage #57
quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

If it wasn't "used word-for-word in a binding legal document" then I fail to see how anyone could be expected to follow it as law.
Equivalent statements were made in binding legal documents. The Establishment Clause is an equivalent statement.

EDIT: Regardless of when it became law, it's law now, which is sort of what we're talking about. There is no possibility of the government forcing religious institutions to perform marriages that they don't want to perform — that's not what most gay rights advocates are arguing for — so this whole part of the discussion is moot, as I said at the beginning.

[ Wednesday, June 21, 2006 10:30: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Civil Unions disallowed in ACT in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 10:02 Profile Homepage #52
quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

Thank you. The term was coined 60 years ago, approxomately 170 years after the constitution was written (give or take a few years).
Er, no. It was just used word-for-word in a binding legal document at that time. The phrase was coined shortly after the writing of the Constitution. A quick Google search turns up the date of 1802 from the writings of Thomas Jefferson, which seems probable.

The idea, which is what we're actually talking about, dates back well before the writing of the Constitution.

EDIT: Also, I think you missed one of my points. There's a difference between "imposing religion" and "imposing on religion." The Establishment Clause forbids only the former, not the latter. (The Free Exercise Clause could be said to prohibit the latter, but that's another issue.)

quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

You wouldn't say that if you knew anything about what religion I espouse or where I live. Again, "assuming facts not yet in evidence."
You're a Jew in Israel, are you not? Your religion is definitely on top in your country.

[ Wednesday, June 21, 2006 10:08: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Civil Unions disallowed in ACT in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 09:43 Profile Homepage #47
quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

Replace the word an with the and you get your interpretation. As it stands it says that it will not impose upon any religion, not it will not impose upon the state a religion.
I just realized why you're mis-reading this. When it talks about "an establishment," it's not talking about the Church or something — that is, it's not an establishment in the sense of a thing that has been established. It's talking about the act of establishing. These are both definitions of the word "establishment," but the latter is the definition intended, as we can tell from context.
quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

That wasn't an argument for why not doing so is silly. It was an argument for why doing so is necessary.
Er, doing what, exactly?

[ Wednesday, June 21, 2006 09:46: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Nethergate News in Nethergate
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 09:38 Profile Homepage #51
quote:
Originally written by The:
[Editbreaker]
The keyword system is not a good approximation of natural language, can cause people to miss essential details (though not in Nethergate), and might lower your sperm count.
It does allow people to ask semi-original questions, though. I came to appreciate (and be a little frustrated with) the Exile dialogue system in the BoE scenario The Election, which could not work nearly as well in an Avernum game, because it relies partly on the player guessing what the appropriate response is. You have to come up with arguments (which was the cool part) and figure out the keywords for those arguments (which was the annoying part).

[ Wednesday, June 21, 2006 09:38: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Civil Unions disallowed in ACT in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 09:29 Profile Homepage #44
Was that an argument against civil marriage on the ground that it cheapens the relationship? If so, that's kind of silly. Marriage is important in today's society for various legal purposes, including what happens when those relationships end (divorce) and what happens when someone dies (inheritance, etc.). Abolishing it would create horrible problems in family law.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Civil Unions disallowed in ACT in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 09:22 Profile Homepage #42
Am I understanding you correctly? You are against civil marriage in principle because it's an abuse of the word "marriage"?

If so, we can just use a different term. We can call them "domestic partnerships" or "civil unions" or whatever.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Civil Unions disallowed in ACT in General
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 07:53 Profile Homepage #29
quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

No it doesn't. There is no mention of a seperation of government and religion. All that says is that the government shall not interfere in the laws already in place in religious organizations.
That's not what that sentence means. That sentence means that the state can't establish a state religion. Without a state religion, you have separation of church and state.

quote:
Which just so happens to be what you propose doing.
Um, no. Marriages don't have to take place in religious places. If the government of the United States starts granting marriage licenses to same-sex couples, those same-sex couples can go to anyone who is certified to perform marriages, including a Justice of the Peace or whatever. If the U.S. legalizes same-sex marriage, individual people who are certified to perform marriages can still refuse to perform individual marriages, just as they do now.

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Thoughts of mine in The Exile Trilogy
Kelandon
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
 written Wednesday, June 21 2006 07:49 Profile Homepage #10
quote:
Originally written by megamad:

I don't mean to say they were bad, but it was not the same feeling like playing any of the Exile games (I have played At the Gallows as well).
I have had this feeling, too, and I've been trying for the past two years to pin down exactly why. If anyone can articulate it, I'd be grateful.

Regardless, if you think that BoE scenarios don't feel like the Exile series enough, what makes you think that anyone in the community can design something that seems closer?

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00

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