What do you think of A4
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 21:45
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Originally by Micro Phage: quote:See, that's one reason I like A4 less than some other games. What I remember about the other Avernums is getting in the way with A4. I compare the plot, the skills, and the interface and decide that I like the old Avernums better because I'm more familiar with them. If it were a completely new series, I would have adjusted to it quite easily and been perfectly happy with it. Another little issue I have with A4 is the difficulty I have in role-playing. In three out of the four games I bought, my characters naturally have personality. (My characters in BoA don't. At least, not until the scenario gives it to them). In A4, the characters are just numbers wrapped in a graphics sheet. However, upon realizing this, Dikiyoba decided to try A4 again, and concentrate more on giving those lifeless characters personality. Dikiyoba shall see where it leads... Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6821
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 22:54
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Huh. I had played the AT demos before playing A4, and I still liked A4 better. And honestly, I'm with Jeff Vogel on this one - A4 really does remind me of A1, now that I've played it. And I still like A4 better right now. Also, I really enjoyed The Valley of Dying Things, A Small Rebellion, The Za-Khazi Run, and Diplomacy with the Dead. (EDIT : However, I do agree that there are better scenarios out here, but I did enjoy the pre-fab scenarios) [ Tuesday, July 04, 2006 22:58: Message edited by: The Lurker ] Posts: 363 | Registered: Wednesday, February 22 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5132
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 03:25
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In all fairness, though, I don't think the BoA custom scenarios are THAT much better than Jeff's (which I find highly mediocre.) Maybe that's because I've been playing BoE for years, and saw far superior works. Plus I haven't been a huge fan of the Avernum engine. [ Wednesday, July 05, 2006 03:27: Message edited by: BainIhrno ] -------------------- "Let us see what the new day brings." - Temas, Areni. Visit my realm! Rate My Scenarios! Fort Emerald Robbery The Nephils' Defense The Final Spire The Fifth Tower of Magi The Portal Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, October 25 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6682
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 06:06
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quote:In defense of the included scenarios...A Small Rebellion was a very, very good scenario, BTW. And Diplomacy with the Dead was not bad either. In either case, it is unfair to judge BoA under the same criteria as the earlier Avernums, which were full-fledged games. The BoA mini-scenarios were not full-sized 100-hour+ adventuring epics and as such should not be judged in that light. The purpose of the included scenarios were solely to give a glimpse of the myriad possibilities of the BoA engine. The scenarios included only scratched the surface of all that is possible. It is then hoped after the player obtained familiarity with the BoA engine, that he/she can go off and make his/her own scenarios to his heart's content. Seen in this light, BoA is not so much of a game as it is more of a toolbox. A toolbox with much untapped potential. Only the sky is the limit. In this sense, the only thing that makes BoA an "abomination" is the lack of creativity of the designer himself. [ Wednesday, July 05, 2006 16:16: Message edited by: Lancer ] -------------------- Lancer Posts: 73 | Registered: Friday, January 13 2006 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 11:26
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I found A4 more difficult than the previous Avernum games, I think. I guess there were parts of A2 that I did in completely bizarre orders with unwise party alignments that made those parts harder, but I don't think I did anything monumentally stupid in A4 and I still struggled. It was hard by comparison. As for BoA, I rather liked VoDT until the ending revealed that there really wasn't anything to the mystery. I liked ASR, but I felt that it didn't do enough in its BoA version, as I indicated on my CSR post. I got bored in the middle of the BoA version of ZKR and never bothered to finish it. I still haven't played DWtD. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 12:19
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I found a few parts of it multiple-deaths-hard, and many parts whoa-this-looks-bad-but-phew-I-made-it hard. There was a lot of it, and since I wasn't burdened by any significant prior exposure to Avernum, I had no complaints about it not being original enough. There were quite a lot of cool surprises. So I thought it was great. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 12:49
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About difficulty, when I first loaded the game I wanted to see what the graphics looked like, so I took pre-made party, didn't get any equipment besides the sword you have to take, and headed to the fort to the east through nephil lands. I made it to the checkpoint, where I got swarmed. Later, after a little more experience with the game, I tried the same challenge and got to the fort, killing the evil Nephil chief in the process. (I had to return to town 3 times to heal/resurrect and there were several reloads involved.) So I guess the game is very easy, if the default party with no equipment can skip starting areas and quests and still survive. This is probably due to monster AI which causes monsters to attack one at a time, with archers wasting all their APs getting in range of my fighters. As for the game itself, I've figured out what the problem is for me: Everquest influence. Earlier SW games were influenced by older CRPGs that focused on story and game world, while A4 seems to take its inspiration from MMORPGs, with their focus on endless hack'n'slash combat. In A4, the lack of outdoor map combined with a constant stream of enemies that come at you one or two at a time make the whole game feel like one massive dungeon. And when I want to play a game that's one massive dungeon crawl, I prefer Diablo. So unless Jeff is trying to outdo Diablo and MMORPGs, I'd prefer if he stuck to making games with better stories/world and less hack'n'slash focus. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7274
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written Thursday, July 6 2006 06:43
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Hello all, new member, but long-time player of Avernum (1,2,3, BOA, and now 4) Even with prior experience, I would say this is at least as difficult as prior games in the series, and I'm not all the way through (about level 20 or so). I found myself more frequently reloading if I bumbled into a big fight without really preparing and planning, which meant more strategy was required. Even the smaller battles required strategy because I wanted to be able to get through using the least amount of mana, since resting was not an option. I found the first aid aspect an interesting and welcome change. The death/unconscious feature means death is not an instant reload, which I liked too. Overall, I'm liking A4 quite well. I think there's a tendency to not like things we aren't used to at first, but now I think many aspects of the engine are indeed superior to the old ones. Posts: 2 | Registered: Monday, July 3 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Thursday, July 6 2006 08:52
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As a starting point, all Avernum titles met a minimum standard (for me) of being a fun way to occupy some computer time. That being said, A4 was my least favorite but it certainly didn't arouse feelings of disgust or abhorrence. In fact, the deeper parts of the game I felt were better done than the earlier parts. BOA, well a point of BOA is not to produce a playable game but instead to release the engine to independant script writers to explore and expand the experience. So, if you are limiting yourself to Spidwebs universe you are missing out on the best aspects of the game. I am not a scriptwriter (no time, small desire) but I am thankful that the engine is provided so that others with talent and desire have an opportunity to express themselves in the Avernum world. I am also thankful that they are willing to share their talents with the greater world and provide their creations to us. One look at any of the places where scenarios are rated would quickly provide you proof that you need to explore 3rd party scenarios. Many are rated higher than those that come pre-packaged. [ Thursday, July 06, 2006 08:52: Message edited by: Oh, the pain, the pain ] -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6393
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written Thursday, July 6 2006 10:05
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I've only played Avernum 3 prior to playing Avernum 4 and there are some things that I kind of wished stayed the same. One thing is the training part - I think the team should go to a temple or training area to get trained. Feels kind of weird just doing a train any where at any time. Now I was an avid Bards Tale player back in the 80's and just loved, loved that game. Avernum brings that same sense of adventure back, that's why I love the Avernum series. I also find it very hard to win battles in Avernum 4 with just a 'basic' set of armor and magic. Died a few times very early in the game, that didn't happen to me in Avernum 3 until later in the game as the opponents got smarter and harder to kill. I haven't played all the way through, but those two items so far I feel are a disadvantage to the game. -------------------- Poster: 'I love your demos, but I have Windows, what do I do?' Answer: 'Get a Mac?' Posts: 23 | Registered: Friday, October 14 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Friday, July 7 2006 16:38
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quote:Yes, the item curve is way too steep in this game... by the end, every single item worn by all of my PCs was insanely magical. This never happened in the other four Avernums. (Well, to some degree in BoA... but I blame that on unbalanced item design by pretty much all of us.) -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4936
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written Saturday, July 8 2006 06:03
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In my humble opinion, A4 is the borest plot in comparihson to the others Avernums. A3 has the most addictive storyline, and the plagues that torment the surface are well balanced, well placed and very, very tied up for the purposes of the manace. Besides that, A4 has a harder battle overrall. I rememeber that to my 20th level party, the vahnathai in Sulfurous Flats was very hard to win and so, a little earlier, the ogre's chief, Uggluk, or something, in TC cercanies. I think that "harder fights" is like a little failure in the balance of the game, which don't offers armor/weapons/XP/spells in the very order enough to beat with some confort lesser enemies. At the ending, a rainstorm of magical itens and spell books at very close places try to compensate this unbalanced line of giving things. The not-rest-feature – which new first aid system trial to make it fair – made the game pretty though to my taste. For example, again in the ending, Bargha is too far away of Rentar's Keep and energy elixirs to priests and even mages are escasse (I've saved herbs to knowledge brews - I've made a choice that i don't know if were the best one. The pylons, a easyway to make the battle unbalanced, are really, really, annoying, and make me remember too much Geneforge. There are a constant PCs dead-restoring life-after-the-battle (cause I don't like read a earlier saved game to fight again the same battle cause one of my siblings died, i sense i'm cheating LOL). This is a mana eater, like Arcane Shield/Haste process before a map chief, pylons camp or a bunch of Inferno wyrms fight. The game is fun, i'm not really sure if a liked the same game engine of Geneforge – by the problems once told here, no far sight, no move mountains, no terrains levels, no symulacrum/capture soul, no secret doors, no boat tripping, no animations, no scenario creator etc etc. BUT, i've enjoy it, and I can't wait to the A5. Hugzzz, Klintor, immortal slith whom crossed Avernum since the beginning. PS I hope that Rentar-Ihrno stay DEAD forever. [ Saturday, July 08, 2006 06:07: Message edited by: Klintor Tazzankah ] -------------------- ***************************************** Wisssdom isss the path to the immortality. Long Life to the Ssslithss. Posts: 22 | Registered: Sunday, September 5 2004 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7285
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written Saturday, July 8 2006 11:45
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quote:Huh? Are you talking about A3 or A4's trainers? It makes sense to recieve "Mage Training" from a Mage, Archer skills from archers and so forth. I find it a little difficult to find trainers so I don't understand what "doing a train any where at any time" means if you are talking about A4. I voted OK and this (A4)is my favorite game! Posts: 9 | Registered: Saturday, July 8 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, July 8 2006 12:19
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In the Avernum Trilogy, to raise your stats with the skill points that you recieved from leveling up, you had to go to a training hall and pay money. In Avernum 4, you can raise your stats with the skill points that you recieved from leveling up anywhere you want without costing any coins. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Saturday, July 8 2006 19:35
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quote:I fear that I must respectfully disagree... at least in terms of A3's addictive nature. The plagues get tiring, and it's way too easy to get discouraged. That, and finding out that the vahnatai did it was a real downer... it all works out too neatly. The only thing close to a loose end was Rentar's escape, and then you know from the start that she's coming back. As for your comment regarding Rentar, I agree. Except that in my game, she lived. -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
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written Sunday, July 9 2006 22:37
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A4 was average which means lesser then the past Avernums. The summons sucks, simalcrum was gone, and the target system was banished. The only good point in A4 was the slightly tweaked graphics. -------------------- Oh you're a cute Adze-Haakai you are.. Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7216
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written Sunday, July 9 2006 22:49
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You just need to get used to the new system :) . Although it is odd that you can train anywhere, the whole system doesn't make much sense if you really think about it.(I'm a year older! I think I'll improve my skills in mathematics! Or prehaps mechanics...) I like A4 the more I play it, although the Geneforge style threw me for a while, but it is actually different from both series. I can't comment on plot, though, since I only have the demo. One point I found interesting was using nature lore to make enemies non-hostile. I always imagined the PCs hiding in some cave while the goblins passed them. -------------------- Apple.elqqA Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, June 12 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4936
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written Monday, July 10 2006 04:08
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Green Apple said: "One point I found interesting was using nature lore to make enemies non-hostile. I always imagined the PCs hiding in some cave while the goblins passed them." I completly agree with this. One awesome add on in Avernum 4 is the Nature Lore. It sucks kill creatures that don't give anymore XP. Avoid them with NL skill makes sense in all sides. Was a good idea. It's odd, but in Geneforge, I'm used to the system and i really like it fot THIS game. But the "transformation" of Avernum gameplay – that was not fully translated in all its good things – make me a little unsatisfied. I'm a little unconfortable too in see some forged creatures graphics used as wyrms, shamblers, etc. Are very different world and so the creatures (The eyebeast, a beholder, i forgive) and warriors, dervishes, mages, assassins like the 3 playable characters of Geneforge. I know that make "3D" graphics is a little more complicated... but mixing the appearance of the two games made it confusing. It isn't the more important thing to upgrade in the next version, but a good point, cause i respect very much both universes and in my imagination, i have a clear image of those worlds, and these images are very different between itself. I hope don't see Vlishes and Fyoras in the next Avernum. Hughzzz, Klintor. -------------------- ***************************************** Wisssdom isss the path to the immortality. Long Life to the Ssslithss. Posts: 22 | Registered: Sunday, September 5 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Monday, July 10 2006 04:50
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As Jeff keeps saying, graphics take time, effort, and/or money. And he doesn't have enough of any of them. So that's something that we might just have to live with. -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6682
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written Monday, July 10 2006 05:28
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quote:EDIT: SPOILER ALERT A2 and A3! I must also respectfully disagree with you. The "plague" concept was a rather new plot hook in the trilogy up to that point. And come on.. The morally ambiguous plague between the giants and the troglodytes was priceless... I agree that the plague plot device eventually became repetitive but this did not happen until A4. And only because A4 had used the same plot hook that had been used in A3. It was a major letdown how in this way as well as others (i.e. Rentar returns yet again!) that A4 felt like a less inspired, more "hack and slash" heavy version of A3. I agree with Klintor that A3 had the most interesting plot out of the trilogy in several ways. It is the first time that you truly experience the surface. The vahnatai, although introduced and developed in A2, had been allies of the Avernites up to that point. A3 put a spin on the formerly cordial relations between the two races by making them dire enemies. The irony comes full circle when you find yourself fighting alongside the Empire instead. It was really satisfying by the end of A3, how that long bloody struggle between the Avernites and the Empire had finally come to an end. It really gave the player (at least me) a mighty sense of accomplishment. "Old enemies become friends and old friends become enemies." Very well done. Not to mention the unexpected death of the mighty Erika. That gave the game an extra touch of darkness to boot. A2, although a very excellent game in its own right, felt very similar to A1. It consisted mostly of the same gameworld and it suffered from being somewhat more linear than the original. Combat also wasn't balanced as well as the other games (only A4 was worse in that regard. much worse.).And despite outcrys to the contrary the truth is that the story here really wasn't any better than the others. The main thing that made A2 not feel like "old hat" was its introduction of the vahanatai race. Which was of course very well done. [ Monday, July 10, 2006 12:21: Message edited by: Lancer ] -------------------- Lancer Posts: 73 | Registered: Friday, January 13 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, July 10 2006 12:41
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quote:I don't much like the other new monsters-built-around-graphics either, but the eyebeasts have been there since Exile/Avernum 1. [ Monday, July 10, 2006 12:42: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, July 10 2006 13:38
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A4 was just the most information ever given by or about the Eyebeasts. I'm hoping for a revelation that Jeff has played some of TM's BoE scenarios and decided he liked the idea but didn't want to seem too derivative. Eyebeasts and Rakshasi are both just weird monsters, right? —Alorael, who actually has no hopes of the kind, for the record. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7216
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written Monday, July 10 2006 20:42
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quote:Although the new lore concept is useful, my party calmed the first rat by the graves outside Fort Monestary. One rat stopped right in front of a nest, and has never moved. It's frustrating. Perhaps Nature Lore should allow you to control, not just calm, creature at high levels? That would be funny, but too much like Geneforge. I really want to move that rat though. Seeing GF creatures in Avernum would be hilarious. It would make no sense plotwise, unless some mage developed a interdimensional portal. However, it's not going to happen(at least I think so). The thought makes me laugh soo much, even though I'm just stating the obivious. -------------------- Apple.elqqA Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, June 12 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Monday, July 10 2006 20:46
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quote:You can kill the rat, you know. It won't affect your reputation... erm, I mean, it won't make towns mad at you. -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7216
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written Monday, July 10 2006 21:10
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[QUOTE]Originally written by Ephesos: [QB]You can kill the rat, you know. It won't affect your reputation... erm, I mean, it won't make towns mad at you.[QB][QUOTE] Alright, I tried again, and used bolt of fire. Melee attacks just send a message that you can't talk in combat mode. I probably never used spells the many times I tried to kill that thing since my mage is third. *bangs head on computer* Sorry for wasting everyone's time with my useless post! EDIT: In responding to the next two posts, that's exactly what I did. I know what the attack button is, and I tried using it in combat mode. Sorry if I was unclear earlier. [ Tuesday, July 11, 2006 15:10: Message edited by: Green Apple ] -------------------- Apple.elqqA Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, June 12 2006 07:00 |