Why there? *warning: displays secret of G1*
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Sunday, April 8 2007 20:56
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quote:Which particular point in this debate are you discussing? Was it the part about Shapers being human napalm or the part about them destroying and enslaving the planet? I get easily confused in my dotage. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Sunday, April 8 2007 21:14
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The civilations that predate the shapers aren't neccarly innocent. The Romans conquered the Celtics who drove off the orginal inhabitants. It rarelys as simple as good guys and bad guys. Think of it this way, in this case everyone is bad and all that matters is that you destroy your enemy before he destroys you. Eventually the shapers assimialted those peoples in their empire which is the key to any succeful empire. If the people hold on to their own nationalites they will continue to rebel. Make them feellike their apart of your nation/state/empire and they will not rebel because they will see no need too. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, April 8 2007 22:05
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But if the Shapers are just as evil as the other cultures, why are they in the right to take over? They certainly didn't need two entire continents, not when the other cultures were already established and kept things peaceful and under control. At least, until the Shapers came, started an unnecessary war, let loose a bunch of rogues, and killed a lot of innocent people. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Sunday, April 8 2007 22:36
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quote:Reminds me of another situation.... Can anyone else guess what the more modern version of this would be? -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Monday, April 9 2007 12:40
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Who ways that Shaping spread through violence and death? The only evidence we have that anything like this ever happened is on Sucia. And that's where Shaping was supposedly discovered, so there's bound to be instability there. After Sucia burned itself out, who's to say Shaping spread on it's own? What's wrong with "The Shapers set up schools. People learned Shaping. Rebels messed it up." And Shaping costs less effort than war with humans. Diplomacy is still far superior, and Shaping is only used to minimize the casualties on the side using Shaping. If additional human casualties could be avoided, why should the Shapers spend time and essence with Shaping when talking works fine? If you'll notice, the Rebels never tried anything resembling diplomacy. They simply waited in the quiet and mostly inhospitable mountains quietly, Shaping haphazardly all the while, and threw it at the Shapers when they were discovered or thought they had a chance. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, April 9 2007 13:07
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Just when I thought your world view was as myopic as possible, you stun again. Why not just accept what Jeff actually wrote into the game descriptions, rather than invent highly unlikely scenarios that violate so-called human nature? -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Monday, April 9 2007 13:26
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I wonder if Salmon actually reads posts or if he does, if he comprehends them. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Monday, April 9 2007 13:29
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What evidence is there that there was violence due to the spread of Shaping? The Shaper Empire has apparently been around a very long time, if the origin of Shaping isn't universally known. There's no evidence either way, as to whether Shaping spread violently or peacefully. All we have is Sucia and human nature. Human nature differs greatly, and it depends on who had Shaping to begin with. Was it some bloodthirsty tyrant, like ET, a scientist-analog(Learning for learning's sake), or a pro-Shaping Trakovite(Good of the world, helping average people). Also, who's to say that the Shapers started the war on Sucia(The only one we have direct evidence of)? There were probably religions back then, with origins of life etc., and they might have seen the ability to create life as evil, or there might have been jealous or fearful neighbors. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Monday, April 9 2007 15:23
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Originally by Salmon: quote:How about a quote or two? Originally by Nalyd: quote:Heustess says: "They [the Shapers] used this power to change those who opposed them... My people were fought by them, and their war mages changed our soldiers... And I led the fight back." The phrases in italics would be very strange phrases to use if Heustess's people had started the war. quote:Dikiyoba already quoted a bit from Khyryk in this thread. "The Shapers absorbed or defeated them." So there was some peaceful assimilation. And there were some wars. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Monday, April 9 2007 16:10
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Well, if Heusstess had "led the fight against them", then he would hardly be willing to put them as the aggressors, then would he? History is written by egos and perceptions. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Monday, April 9 2007 16:29
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But if (as he does) believe that the ancient Shapers are truly evil, he has no reason to misrepresent his case. He has no qualms about attacking the PC for being a Shaper, after all. And the quote is not "led the fight against them". It's "led the fight back". There is a difference. The first implies that his culture started it. The second implies that the ancient Shapers did. The second quote is what is in the game. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Monday, April 9 2007 16:52
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There is a lot made of Shaper arrogance. That they know better than anyone else what is "good" for everyone. While some of this is the result of better education and knowledge of what can be done with shaping, there is just a general feeling I got the power so obey me. Faced with an enemy that can seemingly create an army of powerful monsters from thin air, I'm not surprised that some people capitulated rather than fight. Sucia Island was the start before Shapers gained control and figured out a systematic way to shape creations. They've got better over several hundred years, but they still can't make new things without a lot of trial and error. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8425
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written Monday, April 9 2007 17:09
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Apropos of nothing, (always wanted to use that phrase): Where does it say that shaping was created on Sucia Island? I've played through all of G1, and I didn't notice anything about shaping starting on Sucia. It just reached the height of its art on Sucia. Thanks. -------------------- The sparrows are flying again. Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, April 1 2007 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, April 9 2007 17:51
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quote:Then you didn't play through quite all of G1. Or if you did, you forgot what you learned in the Spirit City. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, April 9 2007 22:06
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quote:I am having my crack team of researchers come up with some power point slides that will illustrate whichever point I was talking about. With any luck, I'll have a fairly robust quote in the next 24 hours. Edited for language. [ Monday, April 09, 2007 22:07: Message edited by: Spent Salmon ] -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 07:10
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quote:Of course you know nothing of that ancient culture. Just because someone thinks they have moral superiority doesn't mean they won't state things "dipomatically". Also, if this people's religion abhored what the original Shapers were doing, they could have felt that them attacking was a "fight back" against the blasphemy, or a "fight back" because we warned them. I'm not saying that the Shapers didn't start the fight, I'm just saying that you are making assumptions based off of shaky inferences and that you shouldn't use them in a "manner-of-fact" way. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 08:03
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Originally by Retlaw May: quote:No, I don't know much about the ancient societies. No one does. Good information does not exist, so there is only scant evidence and shaky inferences to go off of. But since that's the only thing I have to understand and debate the northwestern corner of Sucia Island with, it's what I will use. At least I have something tangible to draw conclusions from. Are my biases altering how I see the evidence? Yes, but I have seen no evidence to contradict my view that the Shapers spread partially by war and violence, starting from their earliest days. But by all means, provide some actual evidence that the Shapers spread peacefully whenever they could. I am okay with being proved wrong. Anyway, after all that, Dikiyoba found another quote. This comes from the ghost in the temple of the Spirit City: "We tried to form an empire against the savages around us, starting here. But the random way we attacked changed things. Created horrible creatures, stronger than what we attacked. Made diseases." [ Tuesday, April 10, 2007 08:04: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8425
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 15:30
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Ah. That explains it. I haven't played through all of the Spirit City. Rather, I ran through on my way to a certain Shaper. Apparently, I missed out. Now going to play through that part again. -------------------- The sparrows are flying again. Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, April 1 2007 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7331
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 16:08
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quote:Dang. You beat me to it. -------------------- You Shall Die Laughing: http://www.worfthecat.ermarian.net/converted The Roost: www.roost01.proboards104.com. Birds of a feather flock together. Posts: 794 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 16:34
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What's going on in this thread is pretty much what I have be re-iterating for goodness knows how long. Some lackey: "The Shapers bring peace. They are a peaceful people!" My response: "Um, they have a nasty habit of establishing 'peace' and stability with war and excessive violence." -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 19:36
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not all the cultures where destroyed. Some where asrorbed(possibly by conquering, possibly diplomacy). EDIT Khyryk in G4 when he is in his cave tells you that the tribes where either asorbed or destroyed. Too me that implies that at least an minium amount of diplomacy was involed. Second you just had your butts kicked off your homeland and are foced to move. Shapeing or no Shapeing are you going to be ready to imeditanly starting conquering everyone in site. No the shapers did not solely rely on brute force. Some diplomacy had to be involved. [ Tuesday, April 10, 2007 19:39: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 20:37
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Anyway, how can you expect expansion without any violence? How many of of the empires/nations/states have been established in the history of the world with no violence? You are now looking to the past to make the Shapers evil? Well look to your own country's past and look how many of thousands/millions of gallons of blood have been spilled. All of your nations are bathing in blood. P.S. I remember that some people here are Australian, but even though I don't know too much about that history I know enough to know it is not innocent. I have read/heard enough accounts of the abuse of Australian natives (even some modern!) to know that its hands aren't clean; so don't give me a something about how that is America's evil demons. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 20:42
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Sorry for two posts, but this is a different responce and I also know how bad long posts are (which they seem to happen quite often in the last week). Brainwashed rebel: The Rebellion is just! We only want what is best for all intellegent creatures! Small child: Then why did you destroy my farm and family with your scary monsters? And why is that Drakon bathing in the blood of innocents? -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 23:14
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quote:193 wrongs don't make a right. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Wednesday, April 11 2007 02:39
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we already have a thread for a rebel/shaper discussion. Lets leave it their. I'm still convinceed that shapers would have needed to use some diplomacy at least. You got your butts kick out of your homeland. After fleeing from a powerful enemy like that how long it will take for you to get ready to conquer the know world? -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |