Why there? *warning: displays secret of G1*
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Friday, April 6 2007 15:12
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So there are two Shaper continents, and Sucia Island is off of the second, less settled of the two Shaper continents. But the secret of G1 is that Shapers originated from people from Sucia. So why is the Shaper power base on the other continent? Shouldn't the area closer to the Shaper's orgins be the ones first settled? -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, April 6 2007 16:26
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First settled, but that island is junk as far as resources go. It is much better to conquer existing infrastructure in resource rich lands than it is to build all that stuff yourself. You have to remember that Shapers are basically evil and have little regard for nature or life. It is natural for them to rape and pillage a landscape, just to scrape together a few more icy crystals. Now they have done the same with the continent, and we see widespread revolt as a result. They are bad people, and must be stopped at any cost. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Friday, April 6 2007 17:59
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Shame on you, Salmon! Apologize to the nice Shapers! Most likely, only Shaping was developed by Sucian natives. Then it spread to the other continents, the further of which was the most settled. And Salmon lies. He's like the Three-Wish fish. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Friday, April 6 2007 19:13
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But the Shapers did (and still do) have the habit of wiping out all other cultures and peoples that they ran across. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, April 6 2007 19:56
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The continents were most likely settled by the time shaping was discovered. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8338
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written Friday, April 6 2007 23:14
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I strongly disagree with your assemsnet Salmon. No one in the Geneforge games is straight evil or straight good. No one's "basically evil" or "basically good" either. What keeps people interested in the GF series is that there's no Hollywood ending and each side has its pluses and minuses. Posts: 85 | Registered: Sunday, March 18 2007 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, April 6 2007 23:32
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I agree it is difficult to recognize the evil within. It is the discovery of that evil, and the struggle to deal with the moral dilemna, that makes the Geneforge series so playable. If you choose to see their world view as other than evil, so be it. I'm not sure the native peoples of Terrestria would agree with you though. [ Friday, April 06, 2007 23:34: Message edited by: Spent Salmon ] -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7638
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 03:47
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Perhaps the Sucian Natives sent out in the wrong direction on the sea (such as sailing from Europe, around the Americas, and finally reaching China [though I doubt it]) I like Emp's idea better that the islands were already settled and one of the continents were just settled more. -------------------- "640K ought to be enough for anybody." -- Bill Gates, 1981 "But what ... is it good for?" --Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip. Posts: 152 | Registered: Monday, November 6 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 08:02
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quote:I find the such civilations aren't entirely innocent. I veiwing more as survial of the fittest like the romans versus the carthegians both are horrible desicple empires the romans merly won. [ Saturday, April 07, 2007 08:02: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 08:04
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its also possible that shapers might have migrated once on the mainland. Keep in mind they just because the final results were that they were succesful doesn't mean they always where. They could have lost a few battles here and their and have been forced to move. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 10:11
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Why is it so difficult for you folks to accept the evidence already present in the games? Why do you prefer to create these fantastic scenarios whereby the poor, poor shapers have to battle relentless enemies and overwhelming odds in order to scrape together some sort of meager existence? The shapers are cruel men and women that are bent on two things. World domination and total dictatorial control over all life forms. Kind of like a malignant virus. That you try to make up excuses for them, and perhaps even relate to them, speaks loudly and eloquently. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 10:46
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Yes, I agree with Salmon! I would much rather have giant lizards rule over me in a dictorial fashion. I love those cuddly green peices of $#!% that tell me that they know whats best for all as they release their toxic new buddies into my farmland. I especially love the new viruses being created by the altered humans without any true knowledge of shaping. While we're at it why not just stuff me in a work camp with a sign saying "Work will set you free".? All this is much better than my middle class life that I am currently living. It will be much better than the stability I so hate currently. I will especially be glad to be free from having to occasionally keep my mouth shut in the rare instance that I actually meet a Shaper. I'd rather have one of my reptilian overlords blast me for not humping their leg as they walk by. [ Saturday, April 07, 2007 10:47: Message edited by: Retlaw May ] -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8338
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 13:48
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Salmon, you are welcome to your opinion of course but I find it foolhardy to make such sweeping generalizations of the Shapers. Most of what I find is that the Shapers simply lack compassion. I recall several examples from GF3/GF4 where regular people are upset with the Shapers because they can't see the reason behind the Shaper's actions (and the Shaper's can't or don't want to soften the blow). For example - the family of the South Forge Guard that died due to a famine because the Shapers refused to give that region shaped crops to resist the crop plague that was going on there. The Shapers were right - introducing such shaped crops would have created potentially disastroues consequences for the region later on. However the Shapers also failed to alleviate the crisis in any way. In GF3 the perfect example is the quarantine imposed on the Islands. Most everyone recognizes it's necessary to prevent the spread of the Rogues, but once again the Shapers fail to do anything to alleviate the plight of the "common man". Conclusion: the Shapers need to "shape" themselves a pbulic relations team. :D :P All this aside, I'm glad that you, at least, aren't calling the Rebellion "good". :rolleyes: [ Saturday, April 07, 2007 13:48: Message edited by: Eugi ] Posts: 85 | Registered: Sunday, March 18 2007 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 14:25
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quote:You know, this kind of statement has always come off as a little condescending to me. It seems to say "I don't have any confidence of converting you to my side so I'm going to try and pass this off as a difference of opinion while at the same time suggesting that you're just not intelligent enough to see the wisdom in mine." [ Saturday, April 07, 2007 14:26: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 16:24
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Originally by Eugi: quote:But if the Shapers have no compassion for ordinary people, then how to do we know that they are trustworthy? That is, how do we know they are working for or even care about ordinary people at all? If they don't have the best interests of the ordinary people in mind, then what are they working for, and why should ordinary people support the Shapers? And even if they do have the interests of ordinary people in mind, can we trust them to make the right decisions? quote:Or so the Shapers claim. There's no one to back them up. And the Shapers don't mind trying to create crops despite the risk in other areas, like Drypeak (and perhaps Sucia Island). Why was this area different? Was the risk of disease and damaging the environment the real reason for denying the farmers their request for new crops when the Shapers couldn't even be bothered to provide extra food or to clearly explain why they couldn't help. How do we know that the Shapers just didn't want to spare the resources to help out such a poor and remote area? quote:And that worked out really well, right? It sure stopped the spread of the rogues, didn't it? Quarantining Ashen Isles was a colossal failure. The abandonment of Sucia Island was another. The clean up of Sucia Island was yet another. And how many poisonous dumps and sealed areas have we seen in four games? Plus, there's all the pylons and rogue creations the Shapers use that kill indiscriminately--are those really good for ordinary people? Dikiyoba isn't going so far as to say that the Shapers are evil. Dikiyoba also realizes that this could apply to the Rebellion or just about every government or society. But how can you blindly pledge your support to the Shapers when you are just one problem away from becoming rogue food or having a toxic dump in your backyard? And how can you condemn the Rebellion for all their mistakes when the Shapers have such a poor record after centuries of practice? Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 16:43
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Considering how the Shaper ancestors trashed Sucia Island before heading to the mainland, it's probable that they didn't do that great a job when the started on the mainland. They probably moved on until they got some significant control on shaping. The fact that they had forgotten about coming from Sucia Island implies that they hid the information or had moved so far that no longer knew the area. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 17:13
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Why is it so horribly impossible that Shaping spread peacefully? Both continents could have already been settled before Shaping was developed. Shaping was developed by a group of mages and scientists on Sucia, used haphazardly until the Shapers realized its dangerous power, and then simply spread. No wars, no wiping out natives. It was developed, used haphazardly only on Sucia, contained, and then taught? Or is that not dramatically brutal enough for Salmon's model of Shapers as Nazi-analogues? [ Saturday, April 07, 2007 17:14: Message edited by: Spokesman of the Dead ] -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 17:45
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The OP asked a simple question which I answered in its entirety. It wasn't off the cuff even, as I have studied that same question as it pertains to our planet. To wit, why did civilisation take hold in certain parts of the world, and why didn't it happen in others. Why did some societies succeed, and others fail. It is really quite simple. A successful society is one that continues to exist over time and expands territory as its citizenship needs more raw materials supply. On our planet we have many examples of success, and even more that failed. For instance, an example of success would be France. Really any European country, but France in particular, since it retained itself in spite of centuries of Roman influence. Failures can be seen as close as within the United States itself. Ask any Indian if their society won or lost. In fact, ask any true native American. One might argue that we are all immigrants, but for this case let's assume that the first group of human beings that survived and settled for 500 years can be called the natives. They are all conquered by Europeans. Every last one. From their perspective, the conquerors are not heroic figures that freed them from a life of oppression and servitude, they are evil donkeys who first killed directly, and then indirectly, then enslaved the last few natives until entire cultures had been wiped from the face of our very own planet. So you tell me. Were those actions evil or good? The Shapers may not have directly enslaved anyone. Oh wait. They have serviles, which they made, presumably from not humans. Right. And they shape creatures for what? Beauty? No, they shape beasts of war and beasts for food. What on earth (or Terrestria) do you think they need these things for? So they can peacefully rule a placid and happy population? Or is it because they are scared to death that all the crap they have sown throughout their existance is going to come back to get them? It did. The Rebellion happened as a direct result of the actions of the shapers. Much like I would never endorse or support the current regime in Cuba, or admire in any way the methods it used to gain and retain power, I also realize that President Batista was a complete jerk and was doing no favors for Cuba. It really sucks that one bad form of government is most easily replaced with a worse form, but that isn't alway apparent during the change. But one begets the other, and while I don't like the Rebellion, or the methods they use, I believe 100% that the Shapers had it coming and in fact it was destined to happen the minute that the Shapers came into existence. Now, after this break we will return to your regularly scheduled program. Edit - Nalyd. Your compulsion to place comparisions to Nazism is both pathetic and naive. There is far more to the world than the simplification you desire, and more depth to this debate than you could possibly plumb. [ Saturday, April 07, 2007 17:48: Message edited by: Spent Salmon ] -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 19:00
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True enough. But "Nazi" is such a convenient term. We hate it so much that we use it a lot. And don't underestimate Nalyd. The Shapers made serviles because they disliked doing menial labor. And, really, most of the serviles actually enjoy serving. If the Shapers were truly sadistic and cruel, then they wouldn't even bother to make serviles. They would, as you said, enslave existing humans. The serviles were made specifically because they didn't want to harm humans, which are currently the dominant species. Serviles were made dumb and ignorant, dependent on the Shapers. They only develop dissident beliefs when they are corrupted by the Rebels, or when they simply grew up away from the Shapers, like on Sucia. They Shape beasts for food because it is significantly easier than working with the comparatively inferior livestock currently available. And they don't Shape everything they eat. They make their creations with the capacity to breed. They make creations for war because said creations are superior to most humans and are far more expendable. If you had an easy enough alternative that involved no loss of human life and little human effort, while simultaneously greatly increasing your chances to win a potentially horrific war, could you honestly say that you wouldn't do it? They don't develop creations for trivial and decadent purposes because, first of all, they have already filled most of their needs for chores and the like with the creation of serviles, and second of all, the creation of a new life form is a complex and drawn out process. It may take years to find the correct way to Shape something. Shaping should only be reserved for necessary things, like food and war. War may not be necessary, but when it rolls around, you would want creations dying rather than humans. The Shapers aren't perfect. No-one is. The Rebels are brutal, the Awakened are foolishly optimistic, the Takers are consumed with blood-rage, the Trakovites are scared, and the Shapers are strict. But out of all those, strict seems the least evil. The Shapers had it coming to them, agreed. Their society could only last so long. But with any luck, the Rebellion will teach them something. And, failing at that, it may force them to change out of sheer necessity. Th Native Americans were enslaved because, well, it was convenient to do so. Other than their lack of immunities to disease, they were pretty much ideal slaves. It was horrible and wrong, yes. The actions of the colonists and, later, the United States were unjustified and cruel. But some of the later atrocities (Trail of Tears, Indian Removal Act) was due to the actions of President Jackson and, partially, a mostly oligarchic and plantation owning Congress. As for Cuba, Nalyd isn't really knowledgable in that particular area of the world. Someone else will have to pick up there.  [ Saturday, April 07, 2007 19:02: Message edited by: Spokesman of the Dead ] -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 19:13
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So, where have all the humans gone? Anyone care to create some sort of population chart? -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 19:53
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Originally by Nalyd: quote: quote:I think you just answered your own question: because it's easier and more successful than diplomacy. Also, Khyryk on earlier civilizations: quote:Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 20:52
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quote:Because, in the Spirit City in G1, you learn quite specifically how shaping spread, and it wasn't peaceful at all. The first shapers used shaping "as a weapon" and tried to build up an empire with it. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, April 7 2007 23:12
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quote:That would be quite impossible. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Sunday, April 8 2007 13:00
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Thuryl 1 Nalyd 0 This brings to mind a scene from a tv show: "Don't underestimate him, he's not as stupid as he seems." "My dear, no one could be as stupid as he seems." -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Sunday, April 8 2007 19:47
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So why is it that people always ignore the many strong points and jump on the one weak and less significant point? I notice that this almost always happens when those same people have no strong points of their own . It is a tell-tale sign of weakness. The greatest bullies are those who are weak. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |