If canisters were real...
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 23:14
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Retlaw, when you see the huge ego that canisters give you, you assume it will lead to chaos. Really, no one will be able to organize a resistance against my new order because they will be too busy trying to curry favor with me in order to gain more canisters. I don't care if they're hating me in their minds. The second they voice their disloyalty, a horde of my minions will be upon them, racing to be the first to bring me the traitor’s head, fully expecting a reward in the form of canisters for the deed. Thus, through their arrogance, I have guaranteed order. As I've said before, every canister someone takes only makes them more my servant, not the other way around. On the army of Shaper Monarchs theory, I'll meet you halfway on this one. Some are indeed made insane by canisters (Monarch, Shaila) but they are more often not (Litalia, Jared, Barzahl). The mistakes that happen from time to time will be easy to spot, as they generally make no attempts to hide themselves. Canister rewards to those who 'fix' these accidents... problem solved. Lord Safey: Yes, each individual Tullegolite would only see their own interests. Each one would have the ultimate goal of having my own position, and they will not rest until they have it. But it is this very fact that makes us strong. If each one of us concerns themselves only with power, we will be undefeatable. Since their ultimate goal will be to control my empire, they will do what is in it's best interest because it is in turn in their own best interest. It is this very ambition that unites us and keeps order. Edit: Garrison quote:Oh, really? Then where exactly will they be getting the canister that they so crave? [ Saturday, December 30, 2006 23:17: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 00:13
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As you said before, do not underestimate the alliances that can be formed by common hate or neccesity. Even if you are the superior "shaper", you are still flesh and your underlings will band together an kill you eventually. You will live in fear or die because you don't have fear. You will be hunted and killed just like Monarch because there will always be ones as you seeking power and ones like my ideals who would resist canisters unless absolute neccesity. Both your own type and my own will hunt you. Death is enement for you for you are hunted and will always be hunted. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 00:27
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quote:Won't happen. They are far too arrogant to work together to overthrown me. Besides, their loyalty has already been bought and paid for with power. Most will even seek to protect me to assure that the canisters continue to flow freely. Thus, through the chaos and individuality, I have created order and unity. There will be those that try to kill me. Being the leader of this overpowered faction, my personal defenses will be formitable, but should that fail to save my life, then, as I've said before, so be it. I hope the Emperor who takes my place is a worthey one. As for 'your type,' I do not see the non-shaped as a threat. Those that use canisters have such a loathing of you're insolent kind that any one of you that tries to stand against me will be long gone before they turn their attention towards me. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5302
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 07:13
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As arrogant as the canister-users are, let us look toward the drakons: they are at least as arrogant, incredibly powerful, and yet they all remain loyal to Ghaldring. I realize a good number of them changed sides and became loyal to Salassar. However, uprisings of this magnitude are rare: and Ghaldring was crafty enough to manipulate Salassar into fighting the hero (bad idea). What does this mean? Tullegolar's canister-chugging super-society would not only require a powerful leader, but also a cunning one. But it is possible. Posts: 70 | Registered: Sunday, December 19 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 08:23
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well their loyalty well only last as long as you control a monpoly on canisters. If one (or more)of your more ambitous generals was to capture/make his own canister factory he could make his canisters and no longer need you for them and his troops would remain loyal to him for same reason you have currenlty control your empire. He will use his canisters to boost his power and the power of his troops in hopes to seize your cansiter factory and your postion. Then you have a rival and now instead of vanquishing the shapers with your full power you now have to invest most of your power to killing a very powerful rival. Even if you do beat him that confilict will weaken you to the point that the shapers could crush you with ease. You may have the loyalty of your empire but that loyalty is very fragile and break under a buff of wind. [ Sunday, December 31, 2006 08:31: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 10:23
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Good lord. Tullegolar has addressed all of these points before because this argument has spanned over multiple topics and has lasted about a month now. I have to admit that he is pretty good at finding solutions to these problems, but they all stem from the presumption that canister modified shapers would be willing to work together and obey an emperor. quote:If they are too arrogant to work together, then it really does not make sense for them to want to work with you. They will seek power by killing you. No guards will be loyal enough for you to trust them with your life, and it would be a desperate argument to say that no one could kill you. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 10:55
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I don't understand why this is so hard to imagine. If my explanation for why it would work isn't good enough, just look at the games. It worked for Barzahl, didn't it? And he gave canisters to people who were totally unprepared for the power. I would only be giving them to worthy candidates. It worked for Trajkov. In his ending, he had no trouble ruling over an empire of canister maddened foreigners. I wouldn’t be conquering people like he did, I would be bringing order to lands that are already in total chaos. Finally, it worked for Ghaldring, despite the fact that drakons are unstable to begin with. My empire would take the whole mad creation factor out of the deal entirely. It's not like my idea for a Geneforge government is even original, it's been done before. If anything, mine is only correcting the shortcomings of ones that came before it. To say it wouldn’t work is simply ignoring everything that has happened in the games so far. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 11:09
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thats only becuase thier enemies don't know the meaning of divide and conquer. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7630
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 12:10
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....Was nobody looking at my real messege? You just have to kill all who oppose you to have a truly peaceful world!!! The only other option would to destroy the cans(and the ruler)for good but then who would rule who would keep th peace?? Poeple would just go back to killing others for the sake of peace!!! -------------------- Phobias are afraid of Chuck Norris. Posts: 29 | Registered: Saturday, November 4 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 13:55
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ET is right about that. But there just will not be real peace in such a kingdom, and the whole society would be based on instability. Anyway, my final contribution to this discussion will be a reiteration of a lame argument: no matter how strong the leader becomes, some PC will come and whip your ass. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 16:55
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ET, your "worthy canidates" would be harder to control than anyone because they would be more arrogant and less trustworthy. Also, the Barzite/Shoali ending is before the Shapers are truly aware of the threat of canisters. They have seen your tricks and met them. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 17:39
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Originally by Garrison: quote:Has it only been that long? I thought it was two or three months at least. Dikiyoba thinks the biggest flaw in Emperor Tullegolar's plan is that it only covers how he'll maintain control with an army and canister factories. It says nothing about how he'll get them in the first place. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 18:01
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I must have missed the part where Barzahl didn't get killed. It worked for him in only one of many possible G2 endings, and not in the continuity used for G3 and G4. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 18:26
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I think ET is also overestimating the difficulty of making canisters. G4 implies that all that's required is one guy with Shaping talent and the ability to forge puresteel. Stamping out clandestine canister workshops is likely to be a non-trivial task. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7735
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 18:41
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quote:It is also true that the Barzite canister maker in G2 claims that it was difficult. However the drakon in G3 makes it look easy... Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 19:24
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Yeah, but you also need a source of puresteel, which is presented as extremely rare, and you need to know how to make the canisters. By the time G4 comes around that's probably known by plenty of people, I suppose. The puresteel is still rare, though. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 20:58
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true he has a relaince on a yet built and easy to sabatoge canister factory. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 21:01
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double post sorry [ Sunday, December 31, 2006 21:50: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Sunday, December 31 2006 22:34
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Those are trivial flaws to his plan. Tullegolar rationally concedes the necessity of having a unified army against the hordes of his enemies, and provides canonical evidence to support why they would be able to band together and fight. The problem of course is that temporary allegiances and cohesion are not very effective for winning the whole war. During periods of relatively tranquility, which may include peacetime, many of the canister users will have to find ways to spend their time. Not being able to divert their violent tendencies toward an enemy, they will try to subvert society for their own benefit. It is just not a good long term plan. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Canned
Member # 7704
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written Monday, January 1 2007 00:35
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how about arenas they surely convert the violence into a horrid game ? Any away the shaper society is based on killing of entire species and hundreds of or fellows just like in or society? Did we not used the nazis to invent spaces crafts? So canister users would some time like any human leader augment tensions between countries or fraction to develop a war. In this society people are bored and in constant search for amusements. That is something that we h take in account before trying to stop war. "I would be glad to join the tellogulites to share the wonders of self shaping or not and would be against him and search of an new leader". Now you see through the upper paragraph how people think, Imperator Tellogulor, people hate being bored so they will take any side to take away their boredom it doesn't mater which side they are in there is now good or evil in a planet full off hypocrites and self centered people . So in that case i wouldn't join any of you or i will to seek an amusement : Do you understand ? Tell me if i should make my self clear. BUT through war some times like the vikings invade northern Europe for the basic needs of people like water and food people make war. IN our so called ""civilized"" world, war at it's most about amusement. Self shaping can change your mind and make you less arrogant because it changes your mind therefore you can destroy conditionments because it radically change your mind making you more open instead of than using canisters one by one alloying your ego to grow. The ego that is a conditionement of the mind, so i would be not a canister junkie. But self shaping has a risk if you are not precise you can cause an error in your genes either resulting in death or cripple of your one self or others. In opposition this kind of self shaping could counter effect the canister use making you or others human again so i promote a war against tellogullor. And provide a solid shelter for the weak and the poor and letting unlike tellogulor others to develop their mind and letting them have different point of view making a more peaceful society. More than that the knowledge that the early inhabitants of changing the structure of reality itself i would be able to counter attack the hordes of tellogulor and making him to go into an exile or if necessary make him a prisoner. And tellogullor to any that would try to steal my secrets i would with my magic probe only thoughts that could be dangerous to my order making me invulnerable to your spies. Glory of the multitudes and the greater good of mankind !!! (Wait that is wrong hey i am becoming more human oh hell !! that is disgusting, well different point of views are better than one.) [ Monday, January 01, 2007 02:53: Message edited by: opon mars ] -------------------- You can jump off a bridge, fire a gun in your mouth, drink poison,or going in to the tiger's pit but you will still end up dead it's a mater of time and how . Posts: 312 | Registered: Sunday, November 26 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, January 1 2007 02:48
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Dikiyoba: My purpose here is really just to explain the type of government I think would work best in the Geneforge world. Any explanation of how I would achieve the power to form such a government would be pointless speculation. Though in a time of total war and chaos, I don't think it would be that hard. It is times like these that men of great ambition are allowed to blossom. Slarty: The point is not that Barzahl won anything, he didn't. The point I was making there was that he managed to keep a canister oriented society from turning into the total chaos everyone is claiming would happen. Thuryl: I thought Geneforge 4 implied that canister makers were few and far between. How many did you see in the game? Two? Jared, whom I got the impression was particularly skilled and really a rare asset. And that one drakon, who was extremely powerful to begin with. No, I don't think canisters are easy to make at all. Otherwise people like Monarch would just make their own. Puresteel: Like with any kind of war, victory begins with securing resources. War in the Geneforge world is no exception. Finding puresteel is apparently tough, but again, the other factions manage, why couldn't I? Times of Peace: Here is where my plans might actually be undeniably flawed. The Tullegolite Empire is designed to exist in a time of total war. You take away the war, you take away an enemy for my crazy followers to focus their energy on, and I can no longer guarantee stability. Hmm, I suppose it would be in my best interest, then, to drag out the war as long as possible. Shouldn't be hard at all. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, January 1 2007 06:12
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quote:There's also Gibbons in Illya Safehouse, who explains quite a bit about how canisters are made. The impression I get is that the main limiting factor on the rebels' ability to make canisters is access to puresteel. Shapers have the technology to make puresteel, so they could probably make plenty of canisters if they wanted to -- but of course, they don't want to. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Monday, January 1 2007 07:12
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ET: Thats the point your empire wouldn't last. The world you would create would exist in eternal warfare either your empire is fighting external wars with the rebels, shapers, possibly event he sholia if you can gain a foothold on their land or should peace time come your empire will splinter into civil war. You can never ever have peace. Hope you like war. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Canned
Member # 7704
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written Monday, January 1 2007 09:26
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i think that is true only if it was a non lasting conflict then your empire would last as for mine it might crumple to pieces as any empire because it is based on an conflict, shielding the weak and poor form tellogulor and making him look evil so i could become like a tyrant killing people and oppressing them, who knows? Tellogulor could be a better ruler than and kill me for my ill minded self . Empires always fell and that the way it is. [ Monday, January 01, 2007 09:28: Message edited by: opon mars ] -------------------- You can jump off a bridge, fire a gun in your mouth, drink poison,or going in to the tiger's pit but you will still end up dead it's a mater of time and how . Posts: 312 | Registered: Sunday, November 26 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Monday, January 1 2007 10:56
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quote:Yay! A rhetorical battle won. Unfortunately that was a side victory. More importantly, if you, Tullegolar, were to create this faction, do you envision yourself as being the permanent, public leader throughout the whole conflict? I believe that even if your faction wins, you will be deposed somewhere in the process. Going back to a much earlier assertion of mine, I think the most effective way for you to lead your prone to strife army is to set up your generals as puppet emperors. EDIT: Opon mars, I think it is OK to refer to Emperor Tullegolar as ET or Tully. [ Monday, January 01, 2007 11:08: Message edited by: Garrison ] -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |